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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@33_3 said:
It is a parlor game. I expect the negative comments. Peace George
I respect your opinion and your history with alcohol, @33_3. Personally I’ve not noticed any long term benefits from combining alcohol and mindfulness, so I’m inclined to agree. Perhaps small amounts of alcohol can allow you to experience some freedom from the ego, but I’ve not noticed any large benefits from meditating under the influence. It’s somewhat pleasurable
But then ego is not really my problem. My issues are more related to desire and seeking safety, which keep me from finding freedom.
We are not enlightened, nor are we perfect Buddhists. Each of us struggles to grow in our own way, and each of us has our individual struggles.
But for those who are serious about the path of Buddhism, retaining a clear (non-intoxicated) mind is one of the Five Precepts that beginning Buddhists vow to follow. The Five Precepts are the foundation for self-insight.
They are not a list of "good/bad" behaviors, but a set of self-instructions that help us gain insight and wisdom ... by NOT automatically following our urges and impulses, we must instead remain with the discomfort these urges/attachments cause. And resting in this internal discomfort - rather than automatically relieving it by acting on it - gives us the opportunity to observe how they control us.
And the Fifth Precept ... to remain sober and to maintain a clear mind ... we cannot be mindful if we are intoxicated. There's no "sin" involved in drinking, and if we want to take a vacation from our Practice, that is our choice. No one - including ourselves - should be judgemental about how "Buddhist" or "non-Buddhist" we or others are behaving at a certain point in time. Until Enlightenment, each of us is flawed. And that is okay.
Just understand that drinking is one of the countless ways in which we enmesh ourselves in samsara and close our inner doors to gaining self-insight. You will not find any qualified Buddhist teachers advising you to break your Five Precepts Vow.
I totally un-mindfully consumed wine (2 glasses) and cookies (several!) last night It was a fun evening and then went on with life. Actually, I enjoyed the heck out of both of them, so perhaps the savoring was a form of mindfulness. I suppose it depends how you look at it. Is super-strict mindfulness, really mindfulness? When you've met with super-strict moralistic people in your life (teachers or religious leaders etc) have you gotten the sense they were really mindful people? I guess I haven't. The less flexible and more strict folks have always been the least mindful I've known actually. People who are so focused on flaunting their morals that they had no idea they really weren't even following them. Hm.
I find it a little interesting that the precepts are all about some basic things NOT to do. But there isn't a precept for doing sitting meditation. That's just something one does in the context of what they hear about (meditation) or even with a group learning what the other members of the group do.
Over Christmas I had three cups of homemade mulled wine. Delicious, Lobster recipe. Next time I drink will probably be in a couple of months at family birthdays.
Strict sila intoxicant abstinence is not my requirement.
Sadly @karasti most religious leaders/teachers are not mindful, enlightened or anything more than dharma parrots, in my experience. However even the ignorant my inspire us with human extreme behavours that exemplify a quality ...
When we learn mindfulness we see it in others, when helpful, humble, kind we recognise it in others, when an exposed hypocrite we know it in others etc.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2017
@Jeffrey said:
I find it a little interesting that the precepts are all about some basic things NOT to do. But there isn't a precept for doing sitting meditation. That's just something one does in the context of what they hear about (meditation) or even with a group learning what the other members of the group do.
No, they are about things which it is inadvisable to do, as they could result in unskilful behaviour.
There is a 'Precept' on Meditation, however, because it is a skill to be acquired - along with the other 7 Factors in the 8Fold Path.... It's a Discipline, a SHOULD do. Hence the propensity of Monks to sit for long periods, and mine, for half an hour a day (and increasing....)
Wow. So I've been drinking tonight and ended up doing a google search that led me here. And I thought, "wow, this is a great community, I wonder if I already have an account here," and I logged in pretty flawlessly...
I find, for me, beer relaxes me. I've got a pretty high tolerance, and at 5% alcohol, I've had about 10 cans of beer tonight (350ml), and I feel just about in my right mind, though more relaxed, slightly more clumsy, but not about to go sleep with prostitutes or kill people. I'm not sure about the reasoning for buddhists not taking intoxicants, other than they may influence you to act in a way that is unbecoming.
So, personally, I don't think there is a problem with drinking. Although when I say "I", I'm really just talking about "me": this bag of experiences and perceptions. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Welcome to NewBuddhist, sober or not, great or small. We are who we are. We have a variety of relaxing methodologies ...
Hope you find something useful.
Cheers.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@iateyourkitten said:
Wow. So I've been drinking tonight and ended up doing a google search that led me here. And I thought, "wow, this is a great community, I wonder if I already have an account here," and I logged in pretty flawlessly...
I find, for me, beer relaxes me. I've got a pretty high tolerance, and at 5% alcohol, I've had about 10 cans of beer tonight (350ml), and I feel just about in my right mind, though more relaxed, slightly more clumsy, but not about to go sleep with prostitutes or kill people. I'm not sure about the reasoning for buddhists not taking intoxicants, other than they may influence you to act in a way that is unbecoming.
So, personally, I don't think there is a problem with drinking. Although when I say "I", I'm really just talking about "me": this bag of experiences and perceptions. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Yes, perhaps you are... Perception is often deception.
It might help if you actually asked a buddy to film you over the course of an evening and then review the video. You may be surprised to discover that what you thought was "more relaxed, slightly more clumsy" is actually a laughable, more embarrassing and idiotic version of yourself.
The precepts weren't written to spoil your fun. Neither are they restrictive, anally-retentive absolute have-to's. But they ARE there for a reason.
They are there to make you more mindful of your actions and their consequences - both to others and to you.
The very first Precept is the mother of all the rest.
It's 'Do not cause harm to sentient beings'.
That includes You, FOR you and for others.
Your 'slightly clumsy' could kill someone if you decide to drive.
The fact that you are now thinking "Yeah, but I wouldn't drive" indicates therefore, that the amount of alcohol you drink, exceeds a sensible or acceptable level.
The reason staying sober is one of the "Five Precepts" vows that even beginning Buddhists take ... is because you cannot be mindful nor can you meditate when your mind is impaired by any sort of drug (and alcohol is a drug).
Mindful drinking of beer as a meditation .. such an oxymoron that is.
I would guess that it is a precept moreso because it is one of the most highly addictive substances known to man along with: nicotine, opiates, cocaine and the like. Even comparable to sugar as some of us know on the forum as very addictive.
If it were not for the addictive properties and there was no risk that a few 'empty' beers and drunken experiences would lead to a lifestyle of spending time and money at the bar or what have you I doubt it would be much a problem.
Just an isolated experience of a single beer I see no reason you could not meditate on that experience as on eating a handful of raisins. Unfortunately we have to respect the addictive power of this substance as up there in the top ten of all possible substance addictions!
So my answer would be strictly speaking you could meditate on a beer, but we shouldn't 'enable' people to play around with dangerous addictive substances that could derail them from both the holy life and the wholesome, well, and surviving life. Yes it is in top 10 problematic addictions.
I suppose one can be mindful doing anything, including drinking alcohol, but I wouldn't recommend it in general. Intoxicants can make meditation difficult and unpleasant, as well as impair mindfulness itself. That said, I'm not a hardliner on the fifth precept and drink in moderation myself (you can see more of my thoughts about it here if you're interested).
@karasti said:
Substances don't mostly lead people to addiction though. Issues in their life and emotional/mental/genetic makeup do. There are people who drink without addiction or even intoxication. Some things, of course, are more likely to cause addiction, but a lot of people are addicted to food. Or games. Or social media. Or cats. The addiction itself is what has to be dealt with, not just the substance, otherwise the addict will simply transfer their addiction. The next substance might not be alcohol or heroin, it might not put theirs and others lives at risk. But addiction is addiction even if society doesn't label the target/substance as harmful. Like exercise. I know SO many addicts who are ultra-distance runners. So many. Is running 100 miles healthier than drinking all the time? I guess, for most. But the mindset has remained the same for most as well.
Yes, I see this. I think everyone is addicted to something, it's part of trying to escape the pain that is inherent in being human. Whatever we do when we are uncomfortable to distract ourselves is addiction.
Some addictions are more obvious than others because people with more pain in their lives need something stronger to numb it. What works for 'regular' folk doesn't work for us.
Comments
I respect your opinion and your history with alcohol, @33_3. Personally I’ve not noticed any long term benefits from combining alcohol and mindfulness, so I’m inclined to agree. Perhaps small amounts of alcohol can allow you to experience some freedom from the ego, but I’ve not noticed any large benefits from meditating under the influence. It’s somewhat pleasurable
But then ego is not really my problem. My issues are more related to desire and seeking safety, which keep me from finding freedom.
We are not enlightened, nor are we perfect Buddhists. Each of us struggles to grow in our own way, and each of us has our individual struggles.
But for those who are serious about the path of Buddhism, retaining a clear (non-intoxicated) mind is one of the Five Precepts that beginning Buddhists vow to follow. The Five Precepts are the foundation for self-insight.
They are not a list of "good/bad" behaviors, but a set of self-instructions that help us gain insight and wisdom ... by NOT automatically following our urges and impulses, we must instead remain with the discomfort these urges/attachments cause. And resting in this internal discomfort - rather than automatically relieving it by acting on it - gives us the opportunity to observe how they control us.
And the Fifth Precept ... to remain sober and to maintain a clear mind ... we cannot be mindful if we are intoxicated. There's no "sin" involved in drinking, and if we want to take a vacation from our Practice, that is our choice. No one - including ourselves - should be judgemental about how "Buddhist" or "non-Buddhist" we or others are behaving at a certain point in time. Until Enlightenment, each of us is flawed. And that is okay.
Just understand that drinking is one of the countless ways in which we enmesh ourselves in samsara and close our inner doors to gaining self-insight. You will not find any qualified Buddhist teachers advising you to break your Five Precepts Vow.
I totally un-mindfully consumed wine (2 glasses) and cookies (several!) last night
It was a fun evening and then went on with life. Actually, I enjoyed the heck out of both of them, so perhaps the savoring was a form of mindfulness. I suppose it depends how you look at it. Is super-strict mindfulness, really mindfulness? When you've met with super-strict moralistic people in your life (teachers or religious leaders etc) have you gotten the sense they were really mindful people? I guess I haven't. The less flexible and more strict folks have always been the least mindful I've known actually. People who are so focused on flaunting their morals that they had no idea they really weren't even following them. Hm.
I find it a little interesting that the precepts are all about some basic things NOT to do. But there isn't a precept for doing sitting meditation. That's just something one does in the context of what they hear about (meditation) or even with a group learning what the other members of the group do.
Tee Hee.
Over Christmas I had three cups of homemade mulled wine. Delicious, Lobster recipe. Next time I drink will probably be in a couple of months at family birthdays.
Strict sila intoxicant abstinence is not my requirement.
Sadly @karasti most religious leaders/teachers are not mindful, enlightened or anything more than dharma parrots, in my experience.
However even the ignorant my inspire us with human extreme behavours that exemplify a quality ...
When we learn mindfulness we see it in others, when helpful, humble, kind we recognise it in others, when an exposed hypocrite we know it in others etc.
Know Thyself as I once heard ...
No, they are about things which it is inadvisable to do, as they could result in unskilful behaviour.
There is a 'Precept' on Meditation, however, because it is a skill to be acquired - along with the other 7 Factors in the 8Fold Path.... It's a Discipline, a SHOULD do. Hence the propensity of Monks to sit for long periods, and mine, for half an hour a day (and increasing....)
Wow. So I've been drinking tonight and ended up doing a google search that led me here. And I thought, "wow, this is a great community, I wonder if I already have an account here," and I logged in pretty flawlessly...
I find, for me, beer relaxes me. I've got a pretty high tolerance, and at 5% alcohol, I've had about 10 cans of beer tonight (350ml), and I feel just about in my right mind, though more relaxed, slightly more clumsy, but not about to go sleep with prostitutes or kill people. I'm not sure about the reasoning for buddhists not taking intoxicants, other than they may influence you to act in a way that is unbecoming.
So, personally, I don't think there is a problem with drinking. Although when I say "I", I'm really just talking about "me": this bag of experiences and perceptions. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Perhaps you are drunk.
Welcome to NewBuddhist, sober or not, great or small. We are who we are. We have a variety of relaxing methodologies ...
Hope you find something useful.
Cheers.
Yes, perhaps you are... Perception is often deception.
It might help if you actually asked a buddy to film you over the course of an evening and then review the video. You may be surprised to discover that what you thought was "more relaxed, slightly more clumsy" is actually a laughable, more embarrassing and idiotic version of yourself.
The precepts weren't written to spoil your fun. Neither are they restrictive, anally-retentive absolute have-to's. But they ARE there for a reason.
They are there to make you more mindful of your actions and their consequences - both to others and to you.
The very first Precept is the mother of all the rest.
It's 'Do not cause harm to sentient beings'.
That includes You, FOR you and for others.
Your 'slightly clumsy' could kill someone if you decide to drive.
The fact that you are now thinking "Yeah, but I wouldn't drive" indicates therefore, that the amount of alcohol you drink, exceeds a sensible or acceptable level.
The reason staying sober is one of the "Five Precepts" vows that even beginning Buddhists take ... is because you cannot be mindful nor can you meditate when your mind is impaired by any sort of drug (and alcohol is a drug).
Mindful drinking of beer as a meditation .. such an oxymoron that is.
I would guess that it is a precept moreso because it is one of the most highly addictive substances known to man along with: nicotine, opiates, cocaine and the like. Even comparable to sugar as some of us know on the forum as very addictive.
If it were not for the addictive properties and there was no risk that a few 'empty' beers and drunken experiences would lead to a lifestyle of spending time and money at the bar or what have you I doubt it would be much a problem.
Just an isolated experience of a single beer I see no reason you could not meditate on that experience as on eating a handful of raisins. Unfortunately we have to respect the addictive power of this substance as up there in the top ten of all possible substance addictions!
So my answer would be strictly speaking you could meditate on a beer, but we shouldn't 'enable' people to play around with dangerous addictive substances that could derail them from both the holy life and the wholesome, well, and surviving life. Yes it is in top 10 problematic addictions.
You can meditate on a beer.... just don't drink it
I suppose one can be mindful doing anything, including drinking alcohol, but I wouldn't recommend it in general. Intoxicants can make meditation difficult and unpleasant, as well as impair mindfulness itself. That said, I'm not a hardliner on the fifth precept and drink in moderation myself (you can see more of my thoughts about it here if you're interested).
Thus have I heard some countries military use mindfulness techniques to trained service personnel...
Hmm one may be mindful when drinking a beer, but one is not mindful afterwards.
Yes, I see this. I think everyone is addicted to something, it's part of trying to escape the pain that is inherent in being human. Whatever we do when we are uncomfortable to distract ourselves is addiction.
Some addictions are more obvious than others because people with more pain in their lives need something stronger to numb it. What works for 'regular' folk doesn't work for us.