Wrong view and avici hell

NB1100

Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

silver

Hi NB1 100. I don't exactly know what 'avici hell' means - although I looked up avici and in Japanese/Chinese, it means 'without waves'.

Who said - where did you hear or read that 'if someone teaches wrong view ... that person will be reborn in avici hell?

Maybe 'teaches wrong view' simply means to be a bad example.

federica

@silver said:
Hi NB1 100. I don't exactly know what 'avici hell' means - although I looked up avici and in Japanese/Chinese, it means 'without waves'.

It's actually the lowest level of Hell, where, and I quote,

... the dead who have committed grave misdeeds may be reborn.[1] It is said to be a cube 20,000 yojanas (120,000 to 300,000 kilometres) to a side, buried deep underneath the divine (nonvisible) earth.[Avīci is often translated into English as "interminable" or "incessant", due to the idea that those beings that have been sent there languish there eternally.

>

@silver said: Who said - where did you hear or read that 'if someone teaches wrong view ... that person will be reborn in avici hell?

I'd like to know too, because that doesn't seem to be one of the 5 "deadly sins" listed below:

There are various evil acts which can lead one to be committed to the eternal torments of the Avīci Hell. People reborn in Avīci generally have committed one or more of the Five Grave Offenses:

• Intentionally murdering one's father
• Intentionally murdering one's mother
• Killing an Arhat (enlightened being)
• Shedding the blood of a Buddha
• Creating a schism within the Sangha, the community of Buddhist monks, nuns and laypersons who try to attain enlightenment (eternal happiness).

>

Maybe 'teaches wrong view' simply means to be a bad example.

Nope. Nowhere near 'naughty' enough - !

grackle

@silver. Many times within the asian mahayana I have heard that those teachers who guide others to the woeful states through false teachings will encounter the most serious and long lasting hell realms. Make of it what you will.

silver

@grackle said:
@silver. Many times within the asian mahayana I have heard that those teachers who guide others to the woeful states through false teachings will encounter the most serious and long lasting hell realms. Make of it what you will.

Okay. But what exactly is a 'false teaching' - could you provide a couple examples?
I have no idea what it is or why anyone would do false teachings or if it's just ignorance, and they don't know they're false teaching, then why would they go to a hell?

federica

Well, let's say an eminent, renowned and well-respected Guru teaches his female followers that in order to speed up their progress to Enlightenment, they would have to be intimate with him and submit to some kind of sexual practice as a means of cleansing themselves of physical and emotional attachment to Desire, Lust and Craving.
Then proceeds to have sex with them on the pretext of teaching them what they need to know.

Would be a 'False Teaching', maybe.....

And no, I'm not referring to anyone in particular, because that would be implying judgement and an accusation of Guilt.
Which I am not doing because I am severely deficient in actual proven and established facts.

In case anyone is wondering ...

silver

Thanks @federica - but I was hoping the OP had some examples he may have had in mind.

federica

You're presuming I have one....

federica

@silver said:
Thanks @federica - but I was hoping the OP had some examples he may have had in mind.

Do you mean @NB1100 or @grackle ...? You quoted the latter....

Snakeskin

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

I don’t know where that is said specifically but more generally the Saleyyaka Sutta says “it is by reason of unrighteous conduct … that some beings … are reborn in a state of misery … in hell.” That unrighteous conduct it defines simply as the 10 courses of unwholesome action: killing, stealing or sexual misconduct; speech that is false, divisive, harsh or idle; and covetousness, ill will or wrong views. Wrong views it defines as:

There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous ascetics and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.

That translation comes from Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book, “In the Buddha’s Words”, where he provides an endnote with his interpretation:

This is a morally nihilistic materialist view that denies an afterlife and the fruits of kamma. “There is nothing given” means there is no fruit of giving; “no this world, no other world,” no rebirth into either this world or a world beyond; “no mother, no father,” no fruit of good and bad conduct toward parents. The statement about ascetics and brahmins denies the existence of Buddhas and arahants.

Reasonably, if holding those views could get you thrown in the samsaric slammer, then teaching them could too. But the actual meaning of wrong views in the context you heard that should come from that specific context; otherwise, well....

silver

@federica said:

@silver said:
Thanks @federica - but I was hoping the OP had some examples he may have had in mind.

Do you mean @NB1100 or @grackle ...? You quoted the latter....

I was responding to @grackle. (referring to op's question(s)).

I'm confused now. How is it when you (I) think I'm being crystal clear, someone shows up who says something and makes the bubble pop?

lobster

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

It means teaching, promulgating or advocating ignorance, for example that people are reborn in hell/heaven or Timbuktu.

I'll go pack my bags, body and mind ... come to think of it might empty them ...

grackle

@silver. Claiming to know when you do not. But specifically as a teacher claiming special/interior knowledge of Buddha Dharma that only you have. That is why a good foundation is so essential. I think you are building that foundation.

techie

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

What this REALLY means is:

My religion/school of thought alone is true. If you deviate from this even a little bit, you will go to hell.

Carlita

Well...

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

Avici: The lowest level of hell. Hells in Buddhism are places of temporary, not eternal, torment. A being goes to hell, not because any outside power has sent him/her there, but through the power of his/her own actions. When the results of the actions come to their end, the being is released from hell. Sutta 1

and

...whenever his father said to him, "Dear son, do not do this," he paid no attention to what he said. Now his father thought to himself, "If this son of mine adopts such an attitude as this and acts accordingly, the Avici hell will be his end. But it would not look well for me if my son went to hell before my very eyes... Sutta 2

If you influence others to go against the Dhamma, then they will have build bad kamma too because of their actions. Their kamma, according to the above, sends them to the hell realms (which in Ten Tai Buddhism is different states of mind) unless one does deeds to gain merits in place of those deeds. It won't erase the kamma but, like a credit card, you still have interest but you can still pay it off. Just don't get into debt or make others get into debt.

"In Buddhism, Avīci (Sanskrit and Pali for "without waves" – Japanese and Chinese: 無間地獄, Wújiàn dìyù and 阿鼻地獄, Ābí dìyù) or Avichi, is the lowest Level of the Naraka or "hell" realm, into which the dead who have committed grave misdeeds may be reborn." Wiki verbatim

So, I guess in Japanese and Chinese thought, when we make misdeeds or cause others too (it makes no difference since we're helping others) we risk going into the hell realm of the dead and reborn again until we reach the state of nibanna. I am assuming that just as nibanna is a state of mind free of suffering, avici hell is a state of mind one of, I think ten or eight before one goes to nibanna after many rebirths.

I'm what they call spit-guessing here.

DairyLama

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

According to Sartre, "Hell is other people"...

silver

Thanks @Carlita, for that response. It helps me understand a lot better the op's question/comments.

Jeroen

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

Well the obvious interpretation of "teaches wrong view" would be teaching things that are delusionary and lead one away from the dharma, i.e. Right view. So perhaps someone who taught Scientology might qualify, as they seem to have a highly delusionary teaching, or those who go out and preach for the Jehovah's witnesses.

But I'm a believer in hell being a state of mind — karma is what you make for yourself by your actions and beliefs.

lobster

@NB1100 said:
Hello all,

Just a short question. It's said that if someone teaches wrong view to other people that person will be reborn in avici hell. The question is, what does "teaches wrong view" mean?

A question, obsession, giving of attention to the wronged is a hell realm.
So the short answer is what have we learned of Nirvana, Purelands and skilful behavour?

FoibleFull

According to my Tibetan lama/teacher, "wrong view" refers to not thinking that Buddha spoke truth, nor that the dharma is true.

Jeroen

It’s an interesting contrast with His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s view that one should stay as whatever religion one has roots in, but to try and be a better embodiment of that religion... so it’s not necessary to change from being a Muslim into being a Buddhist, but to try and be a better Muslim. Some people might interpret that as at least failing to teach right view.

Personally I like HHDL’s view for its very human approach. Often uprooting oneself from a tradition causes suffering to others as well as oneself, there is a great deal of unlearning to be done. However, if you feel it has to be done, then you should do it, follow the conviction if it is strong. There is a lot to be gained from immersing oneself in Buddhism.

techie

@Kerome said:
It’s an interesting contrast with His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s view that one should stay as whatever religion one has roots in, but to try and be a better embodiment of that religion... so it’s not necessary to change from being a Muslim into being a Buddhist, but to try and be a better Muslim. Some people might interpret that as at least failing to teach right view.

Personally I like HHDL’s view for its very human approach. Often uprooting oneself from a tradition causes suffering to others as well as oneself, there is a great deal of unlearning to be done. However, if you feel it has to be done, then you should do it, follow the conviction if it is strong. There is a lot to be gained from immersing oneself in Buddhism.

That too is a subtle imposition, is it not?

federica

@Kerome said:
It’s an interesting contrast with His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s view that one should stay as whatever religion one has roots in, but to try and be a better embodiment of that religion...

so it’s not necessary to change from being a Muslim into being a Buddhist, but to try and be a better Muslim. Some people might interpret that as at least failing to teach right view.

He doesn't entirely discourage conversion, however, but he does advocate certain conditions as suggestions:

...for those who are seriously thinking of converting to Buddhism, that is, of changing your religion, it is very important to take every precaution. This must not be done lightly. Indeed, if one converts without having thought about it in a mature way, this often creates difficulties and leads to great inner confusion. I would therefore advise all who would like to convert to Buddhism to think carefully before doing so.
Second, when an individual is convinced that Buddhist teachings are better adapted to his or her disposition, that they are more effective, it is quite right that this religion be chosen. However, human nature being what it is, after their conversion and in order to justify it, such a person may have a tendency to want to criticize his or her original religion. This must be avoided at all costs. >Even if the previous religion does not seem as effective as he or she would have liked (and this is the reason for the change), this is not sufficient reason to claim that the old religion is ineffective for the human spirit. That religion continues to bring immense good to millions of people. For this reason, as Buddhists, we must respect the rights of others, for other religions help millions of people. In particular, we are in the process of trying to create and maintain a perfect harmony among all religions. In these circumstances it is absolutely essential to be aware of the need to respect other religions.

(From the link below)

Personally I like HHDL’s view for its very human approach. Often uprooting oneself from a tradition causes suffering to others as well as oneself, there is a great deal of unlearning to be done. However, if you feel it has to be done, then you should do it, follow the conviction if it is strong. There is a lot to be gained from immersing oneself in Buddhism.

As he expounds in some detail, here.