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Why are we struggling to survive if we no longer need to?
Well, I suggest start investigating sooner rather than later. Things won't magically change on their own. And something you can do, assuming you even see sufficient reason for an alternative, is to help educate working-class people about the need for change and organize them as a class towards achieving this goal. Like the old slogan, "Educate, Agitate, Organise." Working people have to be directly involved in this process. It's not going to be handed down from above, that's for sure.
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
Your last sentence intrigues me. What is your background? I agree. I am - or try to be - very respectful of language. When uses correctly it can be very powerful. I like the phrase. But I have a lot more learning to do before I create policies on this subject, as I know too little. As a general idea though, I think a managed capitalism is a reasonable aim for all sides. But I am a long way, a lot of leverage and influential away, from negotiating that!
@Jason said:
Well, I suggest start investigating sooner rather than later. Things won't magically change on their own. And something you can do, assuming you even see sufficient reason for an alternative, is to help educate working-class people about the need for change and organize them as a class towards achieving this goal. Like the old slogan, "Educate, Agitate, Organise." Working people have to be directly involved in this process. It's not going to be handed down from above, that's for sure.
Yes definitely. But I definitely am seeking to avoid any separation of human beings. Be it class, nationality, religion... whatever. My position is simple... We are all human beings, with much more in common than in difference, and above and beyond anything else in life, we all share the same will to live and to be happy, and to have our loved ones live and be happy. A huge focus will be on breaking down distinctions between people. I want the rich to relate to the poor, and for the poor to relate to the rich, because, ultimately, if the human race is to exist for much longer we need to work together. We are in a new age. Nuclear weapons and environmental destruction has created a much bigger paradigm shift than we are comprehending at the moment. The old ways must die. Time to mature. Or die.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited September 2018
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
@Jason said:
Well, I suggest start investigating sooner rather than later. Things won't magically change on their own. And something you can do, assuming you even see sufficient reason for an alternative, is to help educate working-class people about the need for change and organize them as a class towards achieving this goal. Like the old slogan, "Educate, Agitate, Organise." Working people have to be directly involved in this process. It's not going to be handed down from above, that's for sure.
Also, you know, the nature of this vision means that it will go far beyond me. There is way too much involved in this for there to be a single leader or manager of the movement. It might be that I initiate or pioneer this message, and I will certainly have a role to perform (of which I am mostly clear on), but this vision will give birth to so many sub-movements or movements branches that will be completely independent of me, and of which some I might not even agree with. So I don't need to be the anti capitalist voice, because someone else can be - someone who knows their stuff, who believes in that idea, and who can perhaps succeed with it. That that person is doing so under the umbrella of 'Enough' and in conflict with my own ideas is not a problem.
Once this vision - this message - connects it is going to spread like wildfire. It's simply too universal and too desirable not to. And I'm going to have to let go. I'll have my position, my objectives, my abilities to offer, but it is going to be so much bigger than me and my role, and inclusive of so much more than I will ever be able to learn, understand or participate in.
So if you believe in fighting capitalism, then go for it. If I don't agree then maybe the movement wouldn't be able to officially endorse your ideas, but it doesn't mean that you can't use the awareness and momentum of the movement to further your cause. Yours is as legitimate as mine... as meaningful to you as mine. It's just different. This is a gigantic jig-saw puzzle, and every piece counts. Irrespective of differing views, I know you have pure intentions, so you have my full support. As and when this takes off, be prepared to make your move. If you are right and your cause is good then I wish you all the luck in the world.
Why are we struggling to survive if we no longer need to?
,,,The simple answer ( politics aside)....because we are human!!!....With fluctuating moods ... warts and all....AKA humans 'being' human beings...
Cultural differences ...Traditions ...Caste ...Class...etc etc....
If you want my opinion ( which is just one of several billion human beings )...
Breaking down these barriers of "social conditioning" which have taken hundreds or even thousands of years to bring into being... is no walk in the park...
The elephant in the room is often missed when attempting to execute great plans... which involve other humans being human beings..( 7.6 billion of us- some will agree and some will disagree and some will agree to disagree)
The Buddha Dharma is ( for want of a better term) about not twoness.... but even within Buddhism, humans being human beings can get in the "way"
( ....and Dharma practitioners have ahead start when it comes to niceties )
Do what you can do with what you've got and do it well...May you be successful in your venture @mindatrisk
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
As this forum's token capitalist pig I would like to see a much more decent and humane system, but I really appreciate and think the dynamism of capitalism is too important to the overall, long term benefit of humanity to lose. So if you can propose reforms that would preserve much of that benefit then I could get behind that. I'd even argue that models that help empower more people to express and reach their potential would not only be compassionate at the individual level but would help society as a whole prosper.
Also, I appreciate and resonate with your incremental and pragmatic approach to change.
@mindatrisk said:
Yes definitely. But I definitely am seeking to avoid any separation of human beings. Be it class, nationality, religion... whatever. My position is simple... We are all human beings, with much more in common than in difference, and above and beyond anything else in life, we all share the same will to live and to be happy, and to have our loved ones live and be happy. A huge focus will be on breaking down distinctions between people. I want the rich to relate to the poor, and for the poor to relate to the rich, because, ultimately, if the human race is to exist for much longer we need to work together. We are in a new age. Nuclear weapons and environmental destruction has created a much bigger paradigm shift than we are comprehending at the moment. The old ways must die. Time to mature. Or die.
Sure, I get it. I feel the same. And yet sometimes, distinctions have to be made.
@mindatrisk said:
So if you believe in fighting capitalism, then go for it. If I don't agree then maybe the movement wouldn't be able to officially endorse your ideas, but it doesn't mean that you can't use the awareness and momentum of the movement to further your cause. Yours is as legitimate as mine... as meaningful to you as mine. It's just different. This is a gigantic jig-saw puzzle, and every piece counts. Irrespective of differing views, I know you have pure intentions, so you have my full support. As and when this takes off, be prepared to make your move. If you are right and your cause is good then I wish you all the luck in the world.
For me, it's not so much about fighting capitalism as it is trying to get people to see the problems with it, from how it engenders inequality, competition over cooperation, structural unemployment, and cyclical crises to the damage being done to our environment, health, and sanity. I'd like us to transcend it, because I think it's necessary to staving off a dystopian future the likes of which Stephen Hawking and others warn about. Working people have little social power except as a class. The vast majority of power is in the hands of those who control the lion's share of wealth and the means of production. And it is through coming together to demand something better that we will achieve it. Part of that will be through political reforms. But part of that will also have to take place in workplaces and the withholding of labour if need be. Otherwise, we will suffer greater and greater inequality and environmental degradation and their won't be much left to save. I'm glad other people, such as yourself, see some of these issues and the need for change, and I'm glad they're working towards that goal. I think it helps push us in the right direction. I just wish I knew a way to more easily combat the myths we've been told and believe about capitalism being the end of history and the solition to all the problems its own internal logic creates.
As though you rendered the proletarians a service in first sucking out their very life-blood and then practising your self-complacent, Pharisaic philanthropy upon them, placing yourselves before the world as mighty benefactors of humanity when you give back to the plundered victims the hundredth part of what belongs to them! Charity which degrades him who gives more than him who takes; charity which treads the downtrodden still deeper in the dust, which demands that the degraded, the pariah cast out by society, shall first surrender the last that remains to him, his very claim to manhood, shall first beg for mercy before your mercy deigns to press, in the shape of an alms, the brand of degradation upon his brow.
Another perspective, via economics professor Richard Wolff:
@mindatrisk said:
So if you believe in fighting capitalism, then go for it. If I don't agree then maybe the movement wouldn't be able to officially endorse your ideas, but it doesn't mean that you can't use the awareness and momentum of the movement to further your cause. Yours is as legitimate as mine... as meaningful to you as mine. It's just different. This is a gigantic jig-saw puzzle, and every piece counts. Irrespective of differing views, I know you have pure intentions, so you have my full support. As and when this takes off, be prepared to make your move. If you are right and your cause is good then I wish you all the luck in the world.
For me, it's not so much about fighting capitalism as it is trying to get people to see the problems with it, from how it engenders inequality, competition over cooperation, structural unemployment, and cyclical crises to the damage being done to our environment, health, and sanity. I'd like us to transcend it, because I think it's necessary to staving off a dystopian future the likes of which Stephen Hawking and others warn about. Working people have little social power except as a class. The vast majority of power is in the hands of those who control the lion's share of wealth and the means of production. And it is through coming together to demand something better that we will achieve it. Part of that will be through political reforms. But part of that will also have to take place in workplaces and the withholding of labour if need be. Otherwise, we will suffer greater and greater inequality and environmental degradation and their won't be much left to save. I'm glad other people, such as yourself, see some of these issues and the need for change, and I'm glad they're working towards that goal. I think it helps push us in the right direction. I just wish I knew a way to more easily combat the myths we've been told and believe about capitalism being the end of history and the solition to all the problems its own internal logic creates.
You need a strategy, and, for this, you need patience. A strategy is what will get you from A to B. Your A is a dominant, harmful capitalist system, and your B is the end of the capitalist system. In this you can learn a lot from capitalists. They are experts in, not solving the problem they want to solve, but solving a problem a market wants to solve. They have also left behind an Alexandrian libraries worth of ideas about how to develop your idea to meet a market, and, best of all, the knowledge and resources to market and advertise your idea. I will most definitely be hijacking many techniques and ideas developed in capitalism to make my vision widespread and desirable. I'm sure you would derive immense satisfaction to use their weapons against them.
The other thing is patience. Your vision is large, and will not be accomplished easily. In this you can take inspiration from the Buddha. He devoted his life to ending suffering, and 2500 years we live in a world with abundant suffering! Did he fail? No. Because his vision spans many eras, and he left a plan - the dharma - to eventually achieve that. Now, that could easily be another 10,000 years, or even a 100,000 years... or maybe never. But, because that plan exists, at least some people will benefit, and at least some will end their suffering.
This is the nature of this reality and there is no getting around it. In most things that are truly worthwhile achieving, at best we can hope for small, incremental changes. Once you accept this and develop patience then you will quickly find that the necessary steps to be taken become apparent to you. And you can take solice in the fact that whatever progress is made is benefitting people, and that seeds are being sewn that will eventually blossom into something significant. This is enough. The Buddha was a fully enlightened being but is as limited as you and I in changing things, because things are changed, not by an individual, but by the collective. Hence my insistence on working with all for all.
Oh, and be credible. One big lesson I have learnt from this discussion and another elsewhere is that, it is perfectly fine to dream big and have a massive vision, just so long as people see that your process is pragmatic, and that you know what you are talking about.
For anyone interested this is my website. It's basic, but at the moment I can't afford the upgraded Wordpress packages. Under 'Discussing Enough' you will find discussions from here. The only edits are to typos and the platitudes. If you don't want to be on the website then let me know and i'll remove our discussion. If you want your name and a link to a blog or website attached to your discussion then this can be done. There's no traffic yet so don't feel violated. I just wanted to show you what it looks like so you can decide to be involved or not. Personally I think these discussions are a valuable resource for spreading understanding.
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
Can you elaborate on what 'altruistic capitalism' might mean?
These are clever, but with all due respect, are you joking? I read your blog. You are clearly very intelligent, very well educated (whether traditional or self), and you have a lot of passion... but your tactic (this is not a strategy) is memes? No wonder you are frustrated. You are trying to climb Everest in flip-flops. You are meeting an invading army with water balloons. Come on! I have no doubt whatsoever that you are capable of much, much more than this. I'm not saying you need to pioneer a movement because maybe that is not where your expertise lie. But you have a gift for analysis and exploration, and I'm sure much more too. If you don't want to lead a way then at least join with some people or an organisation where your talents can be maximised. Memes are neat, I guess, but it's not going to make a dent in your mission. What other ideas do you have?
Just to clarify the difference between strategy and tactics...
Your objective is to end capitalism
Your strategy, i.e. how you will achieve your objective, is to educate / raise awareness / inform about the truth of capitalism
Your tactic(s), i.e. how you will achieve your strategy, is to create memes, but it is also writing blog posts, it could also be creating pamphlets, or writing articles for publications, and so on... basically, things that you are going to do in order to educate / raise awareness / inform (your strategy)
If this is your objective, your strategy, your tactic(s).
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
Can you elaborate on what 'altruistic capitalism' might mean?
Sure.
capitalism
ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m noun
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
Lol, jokes just go way over your head, don't they? Maybe work on that sense of humour instead of mansplaining to people what strategy and tactic means.
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
Can you elaborate on what 'altruistic capitalism' might mean?
Sure.
capitalism
ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m noun
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
@Jason said:
Lol, jokes just go way over your head, don't they? Maybe work on that sense of humour instead of mansplaining to people what strategy and tactic means.
I have a marvellous sense of humour... truly, marvellous. Ask anyone who knows me, and do you know what they'll say... 'mindatrisk - marvellous sense of humour'. Now, in a context such as this, in discussion so lofty, with stakes so high, I can acknowledge that my marvellous sense of humour might have been under-utilised... on this I will hold my hands up to. But from the age of three, until my current age of 36 (most people think I look 31), broken only by a seven year period where I suffered a rather relentless and foreboding sense of existential crisis, my marvellous humour has been my most appreciated, noted, much loved, and venerated quality. So there.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
Can you elaborate on what 'altruistic capitalism' might mean?
Sure.
capitalism
ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m noun
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
@Jason said:
Lol, jokes just go way over your head, don't they? Maybe work on that sense of humour instead of mansplaining to people what strategy and tactic means.
I have a marvellous sense of humour... truly, marvellous. Ask anyone who knows me, and do you know what they'll say... 'mindatrisk - marvellous sense of humour'. Now, in a context such as this, in discussion so lofty, with stakes so high, I can acknowledge that my marvellous sense of humour might have been under-utilised... on this I will hold my hands up to. But from the age of three, until my current age of 36 (most people think I look 31), broken only by a seven year period where I suffered a rather relentless and foreboding sense of existential crisis, my marvellous humour has been my most appreciated, noted, much loved, and venerated quality. So there.
Some people feel that capitalism can be reformed, that the rich should be made to use their profits to help the poor etc. Others believe that such reforms are impossible since the political establishment and the business class are often hand in glove.
In their view, the only solution is a new system of production and distribution of wealth controlled by the working class itself. Because why would the bourgeois voluntarily give half their profits away when it can be used for reinvestment (thereby yielding more profits)? If one argues that the law will make them do so, who is gonna make such laws? Will the bourgeois ever make laws that are unfavorable to the bourgeois?
This is why some people believe that reforms within capitalism will never work, and that a new system controlled by the proletariat is necessary.
@Kerome said:
Then I’d suggest making ‘managed capitalism’ a cornerstone of your policy package. Why those words? The inclusion of the term ‘capitalism’ means you’ll still be seen as one of them, while ‘managed’ gives an impression of correctly channelled in the modern sense of the word. The resonance of a phrase can be quite important...
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
Can you elaborate on what 'altruistic capitalism' might mean?
Sure.
capitalism
ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m noun
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
Then they give 50% profit to the needy. Sorted.
How do we convince people to do this?
Would you do it?
With my income? No, probably not! I've never earned more than £200 per week in my life. I tend to just make sure I have what I need. But, there is an argument made by Peter Singer that, because of how much profound good could be done with our excess income or wealth, that we are morally obliged to share all of it with those in need... not only that, but we are morally obliged to dedicate ourselves to earning as much money as possible so that we have even more to share. So I have considered whoring out my pretty mind to the highest bidder, but all in all I feel like I can make a better contribution to the world by having more free time than having a lot of money. Having said that, if there is anyone here who wants to pay me a lot of money to do very little work then I would love to do a Peter Singer and try to make it a thing.
So Federica, I know you must have a fair bit of money because you taught yoga to trees, or something like that. Do you or would you donate 50% of your vast riches?
@Jason said:
Lol, jokes just go way over your head, don't they? Maybe work on that sense of humour instead of mansplaining to people what strategy and tactic means.
I have a marvellous sense of humour... truly, marvellous. Ask anyone who knows me, and do you know what they'll say... 'mindatrisk - marvellous sense of humour'. Now, in a context such as this, in discussion so lofty, with stakes so high, I can acknowledge that my marvellous sense of humour might have been under-utilised... on this I will hold my hands up to. But from the age of three, until my current age of 36 (most people think I look 31), broken only by a seven year period where I suffered a rather relentless and foreboding sense of existential crisis, my marvellous humour has been my most appreciated, noted, much loved, and venerated quality. So there.
The Marvelous Mr Mindatrisk
I can see how my post could be patronising, and although it was sincere and born of a misunderstanding, and nothing malicious or deliberate, I do apologise.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I thought @Jason’s strategy of using memes to target the Youth was a good one, although perhaps a bit scattershot. Ideally you want to be reaching late teens, pre-university folks so that they can take these ideas into the universities.
@Kerome said:
I thought @Jason’s strategy of using memes to target the Youth was a good one, although perhaps a bit scattershot. Ideally you want to be reaching late teens, pre-university folks so that they can take these ideas into the universities.
Yes, it is a good tactic. It's difficult to comment now as the previous discussion about this was based on misunderstanding. But my general sentiment remains, and applies to anyone... When you have a high degree of passion and very evident abilities, you really can afford to hold the highest ambitions for your ideas and to make your greatest plans possible. Memes are a good idea and will be helpful, but obviously there is a lot more that can be done, and if you are so capable, then you should, because what is at stake is vast and immense suffering of human beings.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@mindatrisk said: ...So Federica, I know you must have a fair bit of money because you taught yoga to trees, or something like that. Do you or would you donate 50% of your vast riches?
No, I'm one of the ones struggling to survive and would love to not need to.
BTW, I didn't teach 'Yoga to Trees'.
That's one branch of exercise I didn't tackle.
I went out on a limb and taught Qi Gong.
So you're barking up the wrong willow with that one....
@mindatrisk said: ...So Federica, I know you must have a fair bit of money because you taught yoga to trees, or something like that. Do you or would you donate 50% of your vast riches?
No, I'm one of the ones struggling to survive and would love to not need to.
BTW, I didn't teach 'Yoga to Trees'.
That's one branch of exercise I didn't tackle.
I went out on a limb and taught Qi Gong.
So you're barking up the wrong willow with that one....
Apologies. I knew it was something to do with something, but wasn't sure what that something was other than it being something. You have the same wit as my mother. Clever, but an acquired taste. Best served with alcohol, I find.
I'm very sorry to hear that you are one of the ones to be struggling to survive. I hope you find solace in the notion that, maybe, one day, when you and I are long gone, others will not have to suffer and struggle as we have done. Although I appreciate you'd probably take more solace in a lottery win or a hefty insurance paid out.
I live in a town where it used to be a common career path to go on the sick. People would be so happy if they got hurt or injured. Nothing better in my town than to do your back in and have to walk on crutches. Cushy for life you were. That was until the Tories got in and started tipping people out wheelchairs to see how they'd react. My poor brother was born with spina bifida and has significant problems with walking. He claims DLA. An agent came around to assess his claim and made him stand on one leg to test the validity of his disabilities. He fell over. Good enough for them, less so for my brother.
It is an odd world. I hope you find some security, and some peace in or from your struggle. If you have any expertise or will in helping making my movement a success then feel free to volunteer your services. This vision is inevitable, but its timeliness will come down to us and our engagement.
There is so much to read in this thread that I'm sorry if I am commenting in a way that's already been addressed, but my latest fascination in this field has been "Capitalism with Compassion."
Essentially, capitalism is not necessarily wholesome or unwholesome, it's all about it's application. In these years, 2018 onward, I think it's going to be more and more apparent that capitalism can be used with wholesome intention, and therefore people can amass wealth with the intention to secure the material stability for others.
Anyway, grow it out from your friend-group. Take care of those closest you and branch it out. Makes sense to me. I don't think it's necessary to compete with big, vested, entrenched interests, you can simply forge your own path.
The tricky bit is, is that no matter how much material satisfaction we can accomplish, we are still very impoverished without the Dharma.
We all have to start somewhere ... Too many of us forget this deserving suffering being (ourselves). Fortunately I am a future and according to Zen a present Buddha.
Perfectly deserving ...
OM MANY PEME DENDRA HUM
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@sova said:
There is so much to read in this thread that I'm sorry if I am commenting in a way that's already been addressed, but my latest fascination in this field has been "Capitalism with Compassion."
Essentially, capitalism is not necessarily wholesome or unwholesome, it's all about it's application.
The question is, is this possible for the masses? I think to achieve @mindatrisk’s aim it’s important to get everyone’s participation, and that is difficult in the current society. My thinking is that it would need some sort of quiet sea-change in people’s thinking.
2
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@sova said:
There is so much to read in this thread that I'm sorry if I am commenting in a way that's already been addressed, but my latest fascination in this field has been "Capitalism with Compassion."
Essentially, capitalism is not necessarily wholesome or unwholesome, it's all about it's application.
The question is, is this possible for the masses? I think to achieve @mindatrisk’s aim it’s important to get everyone’s participation, and that is difficult in the current society. My thinking is that it would need some sort of quiet sea-change in people’s thinking.
I would agree and to me that is the better solution. Cultures can and do change. I prefer this model of change as it is a bottom up, classically liberal solution rather than a top down more authoritarian one. If you try to impose something on people who haven't sufficiently changed their attitudes you'll get defectors, get too many and the whole system crashes and fails. Take capitalism for example, if a large enough portion of the populace adopted a frugal, minimalist lifestyle it likely couldn't support itself anymore, making a change necessary and inevitable. Same goes for an economy with socialism at its base, if too many people weren't willing to sacrifice their own interests in relative advantage for the collective welfare it would likely collapse as well.
Frankly though, all this fretting seems kind of pointless to me in the face of the coming robot revolution. Anything, maybe other than making better people, we might do now will be largely irrelevant in another 20-30 years.
This is great. This is pretty much my current thinking entirely.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
Frankly though, all this fretting seems kind of pointless to me in the face of the coming robot revolution. Anything, maybe other than making better people, we might do now will be largely irrelevant in another 20-30 years.
The ‘coming robot revolution’ has been much in the news lately but there are no practical examples as yet. I think we will have to wait and see what kind of jobs are taken over by robots.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Comments
Well, I suggest start investigating sooner rather than later. Things won't magically change on their own. And something you can do, assuming you even see sufficient reason for an alternative, is to help educate working-class people about the need for change and organize them as a class towards achieving this goal. Like the old slogan, "Educate, Agitate, Organise." Working people have to be directly involved in this process. It's not going to be handed down from above, that's for sure.
Your last sentence intrigues me. What is your background? I agree. I am - or try to be - very respectful of language. When uses correctly it can be very powerful. I like the phrase. But I have a lot more learning to do before I create policies on this subject, as I know too little. As a general idea though, I think a managed capitalism is a reasonable aim for all sides. But I am a long way, a lot of leverage and influential away, from negotiating that!
Yes definitely. But I definitely am seeking to avoid any separation of human beings. Be it class, nationality, religion... whatever. My position is simple... We are all human beings, with much more in common than in difference, and above and beyond anything else in life, we all share the same will to live and to be happy, and to have our loved ones live and be happy. A huge focus will be on breaking down distinctions between people. I want the rich to relate to the poor, and for the poor to relate to the rich, because, ultimately, if the human race is to exist for much longer we need to work together. We are in a new age. Nuclear weapons and environmental destruction has created a much bigger paradigm shift than we are comprehending at the moment. The old ways must die. Time to mature. Or die.
How about "Altruistic Capitalism"...? Or is that an oxymoron...?
Also, you know, the nature of this vision means that it will go far beyond me. There is way too much involved in this for there to be a single leader or manager of the movement. It might be that I initiate or pioneer this message, and I will certainly have a role to perform (of which I am mostly clear on), but this vision will give birth to so many sub-movements or movements branches that will be completely independent of me, and of which some I might not even agree with. So I don't need to be the anti capitalist voice, because someone else can be - someone who knows their stuff, who believes in that idea, and who can perhaps succeed with it. That that person is doing so under the umbrella of 'Enough' and in conflict with my own ideas is not a problem.
Once this vision - this message - connects it is going to spread like wildfire. It's simply too universal and too desirable not to. And I'm going to have to let go. I'll have my position, my objectives, my abilities to offer, but it is going to be so much bigger than me and my role, and inclusive of so much more than I will ever be able to learn, understand or participate in.
So if you believe in fighting capitalism, then go for it. If I don't agree then maybe the movement wouldn't be able to officially endorse your ideas, but it doesn't mean that you can't use the awareness and momentum of the movement to further your cause. Yours is as legitimate as mine... as meaningful to you as mine. It's just different. This is a gigantic jig-saw puzzle, and every piece counts. Irrespective of differing views, I know you have pure intentions, so you have my full support. As and when this takes off, be prepared to make your move. If you are right and your cause is good then I wish you all the luck in the world.
,,,The simple answer ( politics aside)....because we are human!!!....With fluctuating moods ... warts and all....AKA humans 'being' human beings...
Cultural differences ...Traditions ...Caste ...Class...etc etc....
If you want my opinion ( which is just one of several billion human beings
)...
Breaking down these barriers of "social conditioning" which have taken hundreds or even thousands of years to bring into being... is no walk in the park...
The elephant in the room is often missed when attempting to execute great plans... which involve other humans being human beings..( 7.6 billion of us- some will agree and some will disagree and some will agree to disagree)
The Buddha Dharma is ( for want of a better term) about not twoness.... but even within Buddhism, humans being human beings can get in the "way"
)
( ....and Dharma practitioners have ahead start when it comes to niceties
Do what you can do with what you've got and do it well...May you be successful in your venture @mindatrisk
As this forum's token capitalist pig I would like to see a much more decent and humane system, but I really appreciate and think the dynamism of capitalism is too important to the overall, long term benefit of humanity to lose. So if you can propose reforms that would preserve much of that benefit then I could get behind that. I'd even argue that models that help empower more people to express and reach their potential would not only be compassionate at the individual level but would help society as a whole prosper.
Also, I appreciate and resonate with your incremental and pragmatic approach to change.
Sure, I get it. I feel the same. And yet sometimes, distinctions have to be made.
For me, it's not so much about fighting capitalism as it is trying to get people to see the problems with it, from how it engenders inequality, competition over cooperation, structural unemployment, and cyclical crises to the damage being done to our environment, health, and sanity. I'd like us to transcend it, because I think it's necessary to staving off a dystopian future the likes of which Stephen Hawking and others warn about. Working people have little social power except as a class. The vast majority of power is in the hands of those who control the lion's share of wealth and the means of production. And it is through coming together to demand something better that we will achieve it. Part of that will be through political reforms. But part of that will also have to take place in workplaces and the withholding of labour if need be. Otherwise, we will suffer greater and greater inequality and environmental degradation and their won't be much left to save. I'm glad other people, such as yourself, see some of these issues and the need for change, and I'm glad they're working towards that goal. I think it helps push us in the right direction. I just wish I knew a way to more easily combat the myths we've been told and believe about capitalism being the end of history and the solition to all the problems its own internal logic creates.
Another perspective, via economics professor Richard Wolff:
Fire!
https://www.financiallyalert.com/10-provocative-early-retirement-fire-blogs-you-must-read/
The sangha (remember them) have a voluntary simplicity formula.
Those changing the world read
The Art of Worldly Wisdom by Balthasar Gracian
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/aww/
Bonus track
and now back to ahimsa ...
You need a strategy, and, for this, you need patience. A strategy is what will get you from A to B. Your A is a dominant, harmful capitalist system, and your B is the end of the capitalist system. In this you can learn a lot from capitalists. They are experts in, not solving the problem they want to solve, but solving a problem a market wants to solve. They have also left behind an Alexandrian libraries worth of ideas about how to develop your idea to meet a market, and, best of all, the knowledge and resources to market and advertise your idea. I will most definitely be hijacking many techniques and ideas developed in capitalism to make my vision widespread and desirable. I'm sure you would derive immense satisfaction to use their weapons against them.
The other thing is patience. Your vision is large, and will not be accomplished easily. In this you can take inspiration from the Buddha. He devoted his life to ending suffering, and 2500 years we live in a world with abundant suffering! Did he fail? No. Because his vision spans many eras, and he left a plan - the dharma - to eventually achieve that. Now, that could easily be another 10,000 years, or even a 100,000 years... or maybe never. But, because that plan exists, at least some people will benefit, and at least some will end their suffering.
This is the nature of this reality and there is no getting around it. In most things that are truly worthwhile achieving, at best we can hope for small, incremental changes. Once you accept this and develop patience then you will quickly find that the necessary steps to be taken become apparent to you. And you can take solice in the fact that whatever progress is made is benefitting people, and that seeds are being sewn that will eventually blossom into something significant. This is enough. The Buddha was a fully enlightened being but is as limited as you and I in changing things, because things are changed, not by an individual, but by the collective. Hence my insistence on working with all for all.
Oh, and be credible. One big lesson I have learnt from this discussion and another elsewhere is that, it is perfectly fine to dream big and have a massive vision, just so long as people see that your process is pragmatic, and that you know what you are talking about.
@Jason You might also find this interesting and encouraging.
https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/why-are-we-struggling-to-survive-if-we-no-longer-need-to.391785/
For anyone interested this is my website. It's basic, but at the moment I can't afford the upgraded Wordpress packages. Under 'Discussing Enough' you will find discussions from here. The only edits are to typos and the platitudes. If you don't want to be on the website then let me know and i'll remove our discussion. If you want your name and a link to a blog or website attached to your discussion then this can be done. There's no traffic yet so don't feel violated. I just wanted to show you what it looks like so you can decide to be involved or not. Personally I think these discussions are a valuable resource for spreading understanding.
https://theenoughmovement.com/
Can you elaborate on what 'altruistic capitalism' might mean?
My strategy is to corrupt the youth will political memes.
These are clever, but with all due respect, are you joking? I read your blog. You are clearly very intelligent, very well educated (whether traditional or self), and you have a lot of passion... but your tactic (this is not a strategy) is memes? No wonder you are frustrated. You are trying to climb Everest in flip-flops. You are meeting an invading army with water balloons. Come on! I have no doubt whatsoever that you are capable of much, much more than this. I'm not saying you need to pioneer a movement because maybe that is not where your expertise lie. But you have a gift for analysis and exploration, and I'm sure much more too. If you don't want to lead a way then at least join with some people or an organisation where your talents can be maximised. Memes are neat, I guess, but it's not going to make a dent in your mission. What other ideas do you have?
Just to clarify the difference between strategy and tactics...
Your objective is to end capitalism
Your strategy, i.e. how you will achieve your objective, is to educate / raise awareness / inform about the truth of capitalism
Your tactic(s), i.e. how you will achieve your strategy, is to create memes, but it is also writing blog posts, it could also be creating pamphlets, or writing articles for publications, and so on... basically, things that you are going to do in order to educate / raise awareness / inform (your strategy)
If this is your objective, your strategy, your tactic(s).
Sure.
Then they give 50% profit to the needy. Sorted.
Lol, jokes just go way over your head, don't they? Maybe work on that sense of humour instead of mansplaining to people what strategy and tactic means.
How do we convince people to do this?
I have a marvellous sense of humour... truly, marvellous. Ask anyone who knows me, and do you know what they'll say... 'mindatrisk - marvellous sense of humour'. Now, in a context such as this, in discussion so lofty, with stakes so high, I can acknowledge that my marvellous sense of humour might have been under-utilised... on this I will hold my hands up to. But from the age of three, until my current age of 36 (most people think I look 31), broken only by a seven year period where I suffered a rather relentless and foreboding sense of existential crisis, my marvellous humour has been my most appreciated, noted, much loved, and venerated quality. So there.
Would you do it?
The Marvelous Mr Mindatrisk
There is no need to get into a fight about this.
Some people feel that capitalism can be reformed, that the rich should be made to use their profits to help the poor etc. Others believe that such reforms are impossible since the political establishment and the business class are often hand in glove.
In their view, the only solution is a new system of production and distribution of wealth controlled by the working class itself. Because why would the bourgeois voluntarily give half their profits away when it can be used for reinvestment (thereby yielding more profits)? If one argues that the law will make them do so, who is gonna make such laws? Will the bourgeois ever make laws that are unfavorable to the bourgeois?
This is why some people believe that reforms within capitalism will never work, and that a new system controlled by the proletariat is necessary.
With my income? No, probably not! I've never earned more than £200 per week in my life. I tend to just make sure I have what I need. But, there is an argument made by Peter Singer that, because of how much profound good could be done with our excess income or wealth, that we are morally obliged to share all of it with those in need... not only that, but we are morally obliged to dedicate ourselves to earning as much money as possible so that we have even more to share. So I have considered whoring out my pretty mind to the highest bidder, but all in all I feel like I can make a better contribution to the world by having more free time than having a lot of money. Having said that, if there is anyone here who wants to pay me a lot of money to do very little work then I would love to do a Peter Singer and try to make it a thing.
So Federica, I know you must have a fair bit of money because you taught yoga to trees, or something like that. Do you or would you donate 50% of your vast riches?
I can see how my post could be patronising, and although it was sincere and born of a misunderstanding, and nothing malicious or deliberate, I do apologise.
I thought @Jason’s strategy of using memes to target the Youth was a good one, although perhaps a bit scattershot. Ideally you want to be reaching late teens, pre-university folks so that they can take these ideas into the universities.
Yes, it is a good tactic.
It's difficult to comment now as the previous discussion about this was based on misunderstanding. But my general sentiment remains, and applies to anyone... When you have a high degree of passion and very evident abilities, you really can afford to hold the highest ambitions for your ideas and to make your greatest plans possible. Memes are a good idea and will be helpful, but obviously there is a lot more that can be done, and if you are so capable, then you should, because what is at stake is vast and immense suffering of human beings.
No, I'm one of the ones struggling to survive and would love to not need to.
BTW, I didn't teach 'Yoga to Trees'.
That's one branch of exercise I didn't tackle.
I went out on a limb and taught Qi Gong.
So you're barking up the wrong willow with that one....
Apologies. I knew it was something to do with something, but wasn't sure what that something was other than it being something. You have the same wit as my mother. Clever, but an acquired taste. Best served with alcohol, I find.
I'm very sorry to hear that you are one of the ones to be struggling to survive. I hope you find solace in the notion that, maybe, one day, when you and I are long gone, others will not have to suffer and struggle as we have done. Although I appreciate you'd probably take more solace in a lottery win or a hefty insurance paid out.
I live in a town where it used to be a common career path to go on the sick. People would be so happy if they got hurt or injured. Nothing better in my town than to do your back in and have to walk on crutches. Cushy for life you were. That was until the Tories got in and started tipping people out wheelchairs to see how they'd react. My poor brother was born with spina bifida and has significant problems with walking. He claims DLA. An agent came around to assess his claim and made him stand on one leg to test the validity of his disabilities. He fell over. Good enough for them, less so for my brother.
It is an odd world. I hope you find some security, and some peace in or from your struggle. If you have any expertise or will in helping making my movement a success then feel free to volunteer your services. This vision is inevitable, but its timeliness will come down to us and our engagement.
There is so much to read in this thread that I'm sorry if I am commenting in a way that's already been addressed, but my latest fascination in this field has been "Capitalism with Compassion."
Essentially, capitalism is not necessarily wholesome or unwholesome, it's all about it's application. In these years, 2018 onward, I think it's going to be more and more apparent that capitalism can be used with wholesome intention, and therefore people can amass wealth with the intention to secure the material stability for others.
Anyway, grow it out from your friend-group. Take care of those closest you and branch it out. Makes sense to me. I don't think it's necessary to compete with big, vested, entrenched interests, you can simply forge your own path.
The tricky bit is, is that no matter how much material satisfaction we can accomplish, we are still very impoverished without the Dharma.
Capitalism with Compassion!
There is an old yogic saying, "Whatever you do will have results, even if you do not see it. This is the Law".
Do what you feel impelled to do for the good of others. And know that you have sent the seed out there.
Thanks @FoibleFull
There I was learning yoga from a tree ...
... when I seed your post (so to speak) ...
I consider myself 'others'. In other words:
... myself
We all have to start somewhere ... Too many of us forget this deserving suffering being (ourselves). Fortunately I am a future and according to Zen a present Buddha.
Perfectly deserving ...
OM MANY PEME DENDRA HUM
The question is, is this possible for the masses? I think to achieve @mindatrisk’s aim it’s important to get everyone’s participation, and that is difficult in the current society. My thinking is that it would need some sort of quiet sea-change in people’s thinking.
An argument in favor of mixed economies.
https://evonomics.com/democracy-capitalism-socialism-choose-three/
I would agree and to me that is the better solution. Cultures can and do change. I prefer this model of change as it is a bottom up, classically liberal solution rather than a top down more authoritarian one. If you try to impose something on people who haven't sufficiently changed their attitudes you'll get defectors, get too many and the whole system crashes and fails. Take capitalism for example, if a large enough portion of the populace adopted a frugal, minimalist lifestyle it likely couldn't support itself anymore, making a change necessary and inevitable. Same goes for an economy with socialism at its base, if too many people weren't willing to sacrifice their own interests in relative advantage for the collective welfare it would likely collapse as well.
Frankly though, all this fretting seems kind of pointless to me in the face of the coming robot revolution. Anything, maybe other than making better people, we might do now will be largely irrelevant in another 20-30 years.
This is great. This is pretty much my current thinking entirely.
The ‘coming robot revolution’ has been much in the news lately but there are no practical examples as yet. I think we will have to wait and see what kind of jobs are taken over by robots.
I would recommend following their site then, I'd also suggest INET (Institute for New Economic Thinking )