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Seeking practical approach to anattā
Flux
New
Hello. I'd like support forming an understanding of the skandhas and replacing my basic, intellectual understanding of anattā with practical, experiential exploration. I'd be grateful for any shared knowledge or resources about where to start. Thanks.
1
Comments
So what you mean is, you've got the theory - but how to actually incorporate it into practice, yes...?
Correct. As well as a bit more depth to my understanding.
Anatta - the doctrine that there is in humans no permanent, underlying substance that can be called the soul.
Have you also given consideration to Dependent Origination?
Thank you. I'm quite familiar with these topics but, again, more in theory and currently unsure how to approach them beyond that.
What do you mean by 'approach'...?
There is an approach that requires understanding and acceptance. Then, you are simply Mindful of it.
It's that simple.
You might be interested in some of the earlier discussions that have been on the forum on not-self, I was just reading this thread and although it’s more a beginners level there are some interesting links.
In terms of practical exploration of anatta, that is quite a task because you’re trying to prove a negative, that there is no such thing as a soul within a human being. A first approach might be to start with meditation, and to try and do a survey of your mental and energetic landscape, like a body scan, and to see what you find.
I’ve done meditations of that kind for some years, and I must admit, despite some interesting finds and visions, a soul or even the seat of the emotions continues to elude me. I’m currently of the opinion that the Buddha had it right when he said that man was just a composite of many different parts.
The closest I can see to a soul that we might have is the Watcher, that part of us that is always observing. But then even that sometimes shuts down, as in unconsciousness. You could argue part of you is still ‘aware’ when you sleep, because you can be awoken by sounds or other sensations.
Certainly on a physical level, I don’t think there is much doubt that a soul doesn’t manifest. There was the famous experiment by a Christian scientist who said he could detect a change of 4 grams difference in a body’s weight when a person died, perhaps you can find more recent and in depth equivalents on the Internet.
I believe the book Emptiness by Guy Armstrong offers a more practical meditative approach to the topic. I haven't read it myself but it was the source for teachings for several months and a practical approach was the bulk of the presentation.
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/emptiness-0
I am finding this in particular very interesting reading...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/selvesnotself.html
I have been pondering on the skandhas, anatta and dependent origination too after re-reading the Heart Sutta a couple of days ago.
I always try to mix Theravada bibliography with Mahayana, because where the former gives me an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma, the latter helps me "see" with a more all-encompassing, even pragmatic, eye.
Abhidhamma gets to the nitty-gritty of the cogs in the machinery, while Mahayana helps me see in terms of process, and flow of karma.
I intellectually understand the skandhas as the parts that make up a conventional "me" that makes it easier for me to interact in a physical reality.
We have much to discover yet about the workings of our subconscious mind, our brain, the process of perception, and the way we relate to other people like "me."
There are too many questions and no substantial or satisfactory answers.
So I find that getting too embroiled in intellectual ponderings of this sort does not get me too far down the cessation of dukkha path.
While intellectually satisfactory, it keeps me gazing my own navel, engaged in a self-absorbed monologue.
And we all know that Buddhism is not just an intellectual embellishment, but a path of practice.
Anatta has also been explained in terms of interconnection and interbeing.
I find this teaching easier to apply in the plane of experience and less intellectual, more practical.
If I am able to understand that I am part of a whole, interconnected with the surrounding reality, the sentient beings around me, the universe, it is easier for me to make skillful decisions for the benefit of the whole, to upgrade from the monologue to a dialogue with the whole.
Do we have a soul?
Does Anatta imply we vanish into thin air?
Is there a continuation?
We don't quite know.
But we are interconnected.
How can we be of better service to the whole?
How can we help each other better?
At least for me, viewing Anatta in terms of interconnection triggers more possibilities of experiential Buddhist practice.
how to be ok in flux with the actions all around us?our practice is to find the sweet spot--middle way--of rest inaction. so we carry on.buddha called that nibbana--tharavada.nirvana --in mahayana--with you.
i dont know the level of practice you have,but everyday is an expire-ence.so we buddhist try to observe our fluxuation aggregate component that has so much sequence of change and recombinate. not self abiding.it's the buddha's minutcha,detailed observation,within him.
hope that help,fellow student.
OP, Stephen Batchelor gives a very simple and practical explanation of it. He says it's really not about anything mysterious or complex. It's simply about the fact, that as human beings, we're always growing and changing, so there's no point in identifying with any certain quality. No pint in getting ego-involved in a self-image, IOW. No point in allowing pride to become attached to qualities that may be ephemeral, in the long view. That's what it boils down to, is non-attachment to "self", or to one's view of oneself.
Meditation on "Anatta"
It’s interesting that the Buddha himself refused to answer questions as to whether there was a self, or whether there was not one.
— SN 44.10
What is seen through the eyes positioned in this head
yet another strange phenomenon or so I have read
The sense of smell is another wonder, with fragrances galore
the nose does not chose what to smell or what to ignore
Sense of taste is also interesting, bitter, savory, or sweet
some tastes are unpleasant, whilst others are a treat
And then there's what is heard, vibrations picked up from the air
some are pleasant some displeasing, but who is there to care
When I touch, I feel sensation through the softness of my skin
a feeling so unreal.... and to explain ... where do I begin
I know the feelings won't last... but I often think they will
It is an interesting phenomenon when it comes to what and how I feel
Perhaps it's just awareness observing this fluctuating state
observing these five aggregates and their potential to create
I'm aware that "I am" not permanent....but I often 'think' I am
Especially when I'm happy, but then this too is just a scam
This also goes for when I am sad, feelings come and then they go
There's something I can't quite put my finger on, that always seems to know
Thank you for your valuable responses and resources which I'm starting to explore in detail. What I've taken away so far is to be wary about clinging to any particular view, to investigate impermanence as a whole and to frame anattā more skillfully in terms of interconnection.
It would seem that to have experiential understand of the self or non self....is to make sense out of non sense ...Which will confuse the intellect no end.... I guess it's part of the intellect's job description ...to investigate...the Whos Whats Whens Wheres Hows & Whys...looking for answers to satisfy it's comfort zone of logic... However, after many attempts at trying to make sense of nonsense (Anatta) the intellect gives up the ghost and when this happens, all seems to fall into or out of (depending on how one looks at it) place..... for a while....but the moment the intellect starts up again seeking logical answers to an experience beyond words, so does doubt & confusion...and more questions... ( Hmm I guess carefully chosen sentences and words could describe Anatta, but couldn't provide experiential understanding.... only patience, and cushion time or something similar can do this)
Well this is how "I" see things...But "I" have been known to be wrong....on more than one occasion...
These people have 'volunteer guides' to help the investigation
http://www.liberationunleashed.com
You can not think yourself out of the mind matrix, like Neo you have to see it for yourself. Are you prepared to meditate and confront your mind? If not you can start to slow the chatter ...
Dependent origination is easily experienced when meditating or developing right concentration. Perhaps you want to be a Zenith?
https://www.treeleaf.org
You may end up lady gaga ...
https://cundi.weebly.com/meditation.html
Learn to meditate
Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness is practical in that it gives the necessary framework but gives practical meditations and suggestions. I'm still working on it myself but what I have said is my impression. It is written by Khenpo Tsultrim Gymamptso Rinpoche who even is in nifty wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khenpo_Tsultrim_Gyamtso_Rinpoche
Referring to the Heart Sutta, Thay says that emptiness is form and form is emptiness because, being empty of a separate self, we are full of everything.
Avijja, ignorance or "not seeing," constitutes the building brick that keeps the chain of dependence origination in place.
And the main feature of Avijja is seeing with a dualistic eye.
The moment when we begin to divide sankharas, compounds, into nama/Rupa, names and forms, and classify them into "me" vs "them," through consciousness and the process of perception.
Intellectual understanding can only go so far. More thinking about it can only go so far. More reading about it can only go so far. To really understand it requires intuitive wisdom! Really understanding it, is itself, wisdom!
So what you are really asking is how to gain wisdom!
The Buddha realized Anatta by sitting under a tree. "Experiential exploration" is a silent and direct first hand observation of all that arises and passes away. Typically this is done by "sitting under a tree", just like the Buddha himself did. The more one does that, the more one realizes that there is nothing substantial behind any of those arisings. If there was, they would not just disappear so quickly and easily! The more one does that, the more one realizes that "I, me mine" is just another one of those arisings with nothing substantial behind it.
The Buddhist path is said to be "Threefold Training". Sila, Samadhi and Prajna. The Samadhi part is where you find the Prajna. Prajna is the true liberator. And the Samadhi part is, practically speaking, sitting under a tree!
Indeed...
It has been pointed out many times (both here and elsewhere) that fully understanding and accepting the theory, reading books, noting references, swotting up on Suttas is actually of little intrinsic value if everything learnt is not put into practice.
"Talking the Talk" is one thing. Walking the Walk, and implementing all the Buddha taught, is quite another.
By all means, read the menu, but nobody can claim to be a world-class Gourmet, if they've never even tried the entree, let alone eaten the different courses...
Sometimes, the best thing is to put the book down, and sit.
It is in fact the set of lectures given by Thannisaro Bhikkhu on anatta during a meditation retreat, so it has some good practical pointers in it. I was reading this section of the fourth lecture, on skilful self view:
It’s good stuff, on how we often extend the self, how to develop a skilful idea of your own self, and to the deeper teaching of anatta beyond.
This has addressed my request. Thank you all.
Hello Flux
The skandhas are the sphere of experience and anattā can have different meanings in different traditions since these have arisen in religious surroundings and struggled to establish themselves as more or less different from the pre-existing religions.
In India where buddhism arose initially there had been religions that are nowadays subsumed under 'hinduism' and there's been the belief in an eternal self ('soul'). Besides that postulated 'eternal self' there is also the conventional self being expressed as 'I', 'my', 'mine' and 'myself'.
Therefore several possibilities of understanding anattā can be found in buddhism:
1. negation of 'eternal self' ('soul') but affirmation of conventional self
2. negation of both, 'eternal self' ('soul') and conventional self
3. negation of conventional self but affirmation of 'eternal self' ('soul')
Option 3 may actually be understood as a hinduist view, especially prominent in Advaita vedanta and thus is generally not labelled as 'buddhist'. Nevertheless there are budhists who - more or less secretly - harbor such a view due to the fact that the Buddha hasn't very explicitly expressed the view of anattā.
Why do I tell all this? I tell this because from my perspective it is thus: one's view conditions one's path (practices and conduct) and one's path conditions the result or the fruit and because I am understanding your intended 'practical, experiential exploration' as referring to the path.
Therefore I think one should first decide what view of anattā makes sense for oneself considering one's intended result and one's own authentic individual experience and needs and based on this decision - which may also be preliminary - one should choose the appropriate path or methods of 'practical, experiential exploration'.