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A word I hate....

DimmesdaleDimmesdale Illinois Explorer
edited October 19 in Philosophy

The following is my OPINION, feel free to DISAGREE (Not making any dogmatic statement, so I don't get into trouble again..)

Here goes:

Innocence. I hate this word.

Why? Because it is the very opposite of non-dualism.

And yet many so-called non-dualistic schools of thought use it! (Such as A Course In Miracles)

Think about it: when you say that the world is innocent, or that the soul is innocent, or that you should treat everyone as innocent, you are not making a blanket, “all-good” statement. What you are saying is not absolute, not unconditional. It is particular. You are smuggling in a value judgment. For the opposite of innocent is guilty. And without guilt, there can be no innocence. The two depend on each other.

In a limited sense, innocence is good. In legal terms, it is a definite good. A definite good. Let that sink in. The state of being innocent is a certain status. If you are innocent, I treat you one way. But if you were not innocent, I would have no reason to treat you that way and may as well treat you in a completely different way. Total conditionality. The complete opposite of true forgiveness, actually. And hypocritical texts like ACIM preach it as Gospel!

Real forgiveness, real non-dualism, has nothing to do with the value judgment “innocent.” It is ALL-GOOD, the complete, unconditioned Good. And what does unconditioned mean? It means going over and beyond YOUR own preferential treatment of someone based on his or her STATUS: whether good, or bad, or neutral. It is to see others with truly equal vision. Not, of course, to dispense with practical matters of judgment, or conflating good and bad, but to transcend all such categories by realizing that ALL THINGS HAVE THEIR PLACE in the ultimate scheme of things. This, alone, is actual ACCEPTANCE. To accept means seeing and _embracing _reality as it is, warts and all, not merely a one-sided, fake, prissy, moral “goodness.” That is a violation of reality if ever there was one.

That is my opinion.

Comments

  • That is my opinion.

    Indeed. I hate opinions. But hate is all good or am I ignorant/innocent/ramblin'?

    ... Next opinion follows shortly ...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Dimmesdale said: Think about it: when you say that the world is innocent, or that the soul is innocent, or that you should treat everyone as innocent, you are not making a blanket, “all-good” statement. What you are saying is not absolute, not unconditional. It is particular. You are smuggling in a value judgment. For the opposite of innocent is guilty. And without guilt, there can be no innocence. The two depend on each other.

    This is not the context in which the word is being used.

    In a limited sense, innocence is good. In legal terms, it is a definite good. A definite good. Let that sink in. The state of being innocent is a certain status. If you are innocent, I treat you one way. But if you were not innocent, I would have no reason to treat you that way and may as well treat you in a completely different way. Total conditionality. The complete opposite of true forgiveness, actually. And hypocritical texts like ACIM preach it as Gospel!

    Real forgiveness, real non-dualism, has nothing to do with the value judgment “innocent.” It is ALL-GOOD, the complete, unconditioned Good. And what does unconditioned mean? It means going over and beyond YOUR own preferential treatment of someone based on his or her STATUS: whether good, or bad, or neutral. It is to see others with truly equal vision. Not, of course, to dispense with practical matters of judgment, or conflating good and bad, but to transcend all such categories by realizing that ALL THINGS HAVE THEIR PLACE in the ultimate scheme of things. This, alone, is actual ACCEPTANCE. To accept means seeing and _embracing _reality as it is, warts and all, not merely a one-sided, fake, prissy, moral “goodness.” That is a violation of reality if ever there was one.

    That is my opinion.

    I really don't think you are discussing the word in the intended context. A child is innocent, and its opposite is not 'guilty'. Its opposite is 'tainted'.
    when we talk about a person's innocence in the context of spirituality, it's because of an untainted, as yet unpolluted natural goodness. It has nothing to do with guilt, legal or otherwise.

    Davidlobster
  • In life, we are all innocent - tainted - guilty. It is not innocence we seek. It is emancipation from judgement, from self delusion, from our arrogance of ignorance.
    Yes, children are innocent to the World. But they pay the price of others' judgement, self delusion, arrogance and ignorance.
    When we become aware of the World, we must seek to become aware of ourselves, of our intertwined existences, of our sameness even in our uniqueness. When we can identify as a part of and one with this great Spaceship Earth, that we are both passengers and crew.
    There is no innocence or guilt, no tainted or true, no good or bad but that we make and judge it so. We are the reality and the illusion we create. Innocence is a veil, guilt a shroud. We are constantly tainted by out awareness of the world around us in sight, sound and touch, in spirit and in mind.
    The emancipation we seek is called, Awakening, Enlightenment, Buddha, Life.
    The swamp is muddy, but the lotus therein is beautiful. We seek to be that beautiful lotus in the the muddy swamp we call our daily life.

    Peace to all

    lobsterDavid
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited October 22

    @Dimmesdale said:
    The following is my OPINION, feel free to DISAGREE (Not making any dogmatic statement, so I don't get into trouble again..)

    Here goes:

    Innocence. I hate this word.

    Why? Because it is the very opposite of non-dualism.

    This doesn't make sense. Non-dualism can only have an opposite based in dualistic thinking which would be dualism. Truly, opposition is conventional and only based in dualism.

    And yet many so-called non-dualistic schools of thought use it! (Such as A Course In Miracles)

    Think about it: when you say that the world is innocent, or that the soul is innocent, or that you should treat everyone as innocent, you are not making a blanket, “all-good” statement. What you are saying is not absolute, not unconditional. It is particular. You are smuggling in a value judgment. For the opposite of innocent is guilty. And without guilt, there can be no innocence. The two depend on each other.

    As was already pointed out (sorry to go on about it while you haven't had the chance to address it but hey) the opposite of innocence is to be tainted. There is no need for judgement, just observation. Things rise according to conditions and conditions taint. Of course, they also awaken and remove taints.

    In a limited sense, innocence is good. In legal terms, it is a definite good. A definite good. Let that sink in. The state of being innocent is a certain status. If you are innocent, I treat you one way. But if you were not innocent, I would have no reason to treat you that way and may as well treat you in a completely different way. Total conditionality. The complete opposite of true forgiveness, actually. And hypocritical texts like ACIM preach it as Gospel!

    I'm not sure of all that because to be found innocent in a court of law doesn't really determine whether or not one truly did whatever it is they are accused of. Also I don't know what ACIM is about. You can see miracles everywhere if mindful enough.

    Real forgiveness, real non-dualism, has nothing to do with the value judgment “innocent.” It is ALL-GOOD, the complete, unconditioned Good.

    I'm not exactly sure what forgiveness has to do with non-dualism except by way of recognizing ones self in others. If I recognize myself in someone that has done me wrong, I can forgive them but if they have not done any work towards their growth, I would not treat them the same as if they were the Dalai Lama and allow them to wrong me again in the same way.

    It doesn't mean I love them any less because I refuse to be abused, quite the contrary.

    And what does unconditioned mean? It means going over and beyond YOUR own preferential treatment of someone based on his or her STATUS: whether good, or bad, or neutral. It is to see others with truly equal vision. Not, of course, to dispense with practical matters of judgment, or conflating good and bad, but to transcend all such categories by realizing that ALL THINGS HAVE THEIR PLACE in the ultimate scheme of things.

    That is what equanimity means, not unconditional. Unconditional implies to be unchanged by conventional means.

    If I treat someone differently based on their actions it doesn't mean my love for them is any less.

    This, alone, is actual ACCEPTANCE. To accept means seeing and _embracing _reality as it is, warts and all, not merely a one-sided, fake, prissy, moral “goodness.” That is a violation of reality if ever there was one.

    That is my opinion.

    Acceptance doesn't mean to condone.

    lobster
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
    edited October 22

    I don’t know if it is worth it to hate any word in particular. What has that poor word ever done to you, to deserve such condemnation? In the end words are just placeholders for emotions and concepts within us, even if you were to banish a word from your vocabulary would it really help? It seems like a rather extreme attempt to effect change which is driven by an internal almost-desperation, it doesn’t sound like a wholesome form of the dharma.

    It is better to look at the roots of this feeling, to try and gain insight into why you really feel strongly about this word ‘innocence’. There will be something there, some possessiveness or craving that you are better off letting go of.

    Letting go is an important key to finding peace and equanimity. We are often pulled in all kinds of different directions by desires deep inside and it is not conducive to the path. Finding these things in the mind and then releasing the craving is a good way to ring yourself to peace.

    Davidlobster
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