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Anti-buddhism

KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonderThe Continent Veteran

Feeling a bit whimsical today, so I thought I would make a list of things I love which Buddhism doesn’t encourage. Because its not peaceful or because it is entertainment which takes time away from practice. Just to see what would come out, and maybe it will strike a chord with people.

  • Music... jazz, dance, pop, r&b, new age
  • Films... animated films, comedies, romance, documentaries, sci-fi
  • Art... everything from Mark Rothko to Johannes Vermeer
  • Computers... preferably Apple devices
  • Role playing games... anything which doesn’t get too complicated
  • Board games... settlers of cataan anyone?
  • A good white wine... like a German Gewurztraminer
  • A home-cooked meal... pizza or a potato dish is lovely

Please feel free to add your own lists!

AlexBunks

Comments

  • AlexAlex UK Veteran

    Are they refuges, in their own ways ?

    Kerome
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited March 29


    kerome's list

    Music ???? then Buddhist services should stop sounding so musical.
    Films???? temples would be empty if you banned any recording devices.
    Art???? Out with tanka's, ceremonies or any Buddhist iconography.
    Computers??? what part of the dark ages sounds good to you?
    Role playing games??? There goes the master/ disciple relationship.
    Board games? That one I can accept.
    A good white wine??? Sounds racist.
    A home-cooked meal???. wandering out for alms just doesn't work if everyone does it.

    A contrary day for me, for sure.

    BunkslobsterKerome
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    Your topic header is a little OTT I'd suggest @Kerome.

    I can't say I recall a Sutta where the Buddha discouraged the use of iPads.

    Sounds like you're talking mainly about the things monastics are encouraged to avoid.

    Most of us are comfortable following the path but also undertaking the vast majority of things on your list.

    lobster
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran

    @Alex said:
    Are they refuges, in their own ways ?

    Perhaps they are. I was being a bit obstreperous in the OP, referring to the monks rules from the vinaya as if they applied to everyone which of course they do not. But still it stands that there are many smaller rules which discourage monks from playing games or watching theater, and I’m sure that if they would have been there in the Buddha’s time art, TV and films would also have been included. The thing is, these things give me joy. They are sources of fun and pleasure. Which is how I ended up on the anti-Buddhist trail.

    But it’s a serious consideration, seeing how the things you enjoy are not part of the traditions you support, if you were to really take those traditions to an extreme.

    Alex
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran

    @Bunks said:
    Your topic header is a little OTT I'd suggest @Kerome.

    I can't say I recall a Sutta where the Buddha discouraged the use of iPads.

    Sounds like you're talking mainly about the things monastics are encouraged to avoid.

    Most of us are comfortable following the path but also undertaking the vast majority of things on your list.

    You’re absolutely right @bunks... it was meant to be a bit satirical, not exactly my usual style of post. If @lobster had attempted it it would probably have been a roaring success ;) I don’t think I quite carried it off.

    BunksAlex
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    edited March 29

    @Kerome said:

    @Bunks said:
    Your topic header is a little OTT I'd suggest @Kerome.

    I can't say I recall a Sutta where the Buddha discouraged the use of iPads.

    Sounds like you're talking mainly about the things monastics are encouraged to avoid.

    Most of us are comfortable following the path but also undertaking the vast majority of things on your list.

    You’re absolutely right @bunks... it was meant to be a bit satirical, not exactly my usual style of post. If @lobster had attempted it it would probably have been a roaring success ;) I don’t think I quite carried it off.

    All good @Kerome - I get where you're coming from.... :)

    If Lobster had have attempted it, I doubt I would have understood...

    Shoshin1Alexlobster
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran
    edited March 30

    But there’s a serious undercurrent here as well. If you think about anti-Buddhism, the things that Buddhism is not or is against, you might find some aspects of your life in there, and it was meant to throw into relief the parts of our lives we are encouraged to leave behind.

    For me, it encouraged me to spend time thinking about all the things I have found pleasurable about life which I don’t do so often because I am spending time on Buddhism. It recalls the strong reaction I had when contemplating cessation last year, which was based on similar things.

    AlexlobsterBunks
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran

    I do love a good hamburger, that is true. And I still have a fair amount of curly hair on my head, though not as much as when I was younger.

  • VimalajātiVimalajāti Whitby, Ontario Veteran

    @Kerome said:

    • A good white wine... like a German Gewurztraminer

    I'm partial to the Black Tower -- a cheap date if there ever was one.

    federicaKerome
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Vimalajāti said:

    @Kerome said:

    • A good white wine... like a German Gewurztraminer

    I'm partial to the Black Tower -- a cheap date if there ever was one.

    On a par with Blue Nun, Piat d'Or and Mateus Rosé...

    Kerome
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran
    edited March 30

    @federica said:

    @Vimalajāti said:

    @Kerome said:

    • A good white wine... like a German Gewurztraminer

    I'm partial to the Black Tower -- a cheap date if there ever was one.

    On a par with Blue Nun, Piat d'Or and Mateus Rosé...

    As long as it isn’t Liebfraumilch. I’ve got a bottle of Austrian Grüner Veltliner that I’m drinking over a few days, and it’s very nice, classy.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Addendum:

    • Work (see sangha)
    • Barbies (an Oz burnt offering)
    • Atheists (see reincarnation, purelands, gods)
    • Amber nectar (aka Be er ...)
    • Food (apart from rice)
    • Vajrayana (splitters!)
    • Humour (see Monty Sutra)

    warning: may contain wrong speech
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4f71iv

    o:)

    Kerome
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    edited March 31

    My experience with "worldly" happiness is that there is happiness and joy in the moment and often in reflection or anticipation. But experientially that they are tainted with a suffering feeling that only grows with use until it becomes unpleasant. Meditation and other more spiritual pursuits mitigate and ease that suffering. So if your goal is to live a happy, pleasant life in the world I think a balance can be found, at least for a time. If your goal is more about removing suffering and finding peace then I do think they are an obstacle.

    To me its not about a rule to follow or not. Its about the consequences and effects different actions produce.

    In my recent trip into D&D land I have been having fun, having laughs with people similar to me and imagining my characters. I also have been feeling a more obsessive sort of feeling in my heart where I can't turn off the thinking about it and the craving to do it all the time, it disrupts my sleep at times.

    KeromeJeffreyDavid
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran

    Great post, @person. I just wanted to say this thread is typically western, because here we are between layman and monk in our approach. We look at the vinaya and think, should I be doing all of that? Those rules are all there to help monks find enlightenment, perhaps they would also help guide me. And then you start subtracting things, and you run into problems. In fact, I think even some of the rules for laymen are a bit too absolute.

    @person said:
    My experience with "worldly" happiness is that there is happiness and joy in the moment and often in reflection or anticipation. But experientially that they are tainted with a suffering feeling that only grows with use until it becomes unpleasant. Meditation and other more spiritual pursuits mitigate and ease that suffering.

    I came across a beautiful section in Khalil Gibran’s The Prophet on pleasure:

    To a bee, a flower is a fountain of life.
    To a flower, a bee is a messenger of love.

    It just made me realise that a lot of suffering and happiness are about how you see things, and that internally much of our suffering is caused by ourselves. We shouldn’t deny ourselves the things that give us joy and happiness, because it will take all the juiciness out of life.

    So if your goal is to live a happy, pleasant life in the world I think a balance can be found, at least for a time. If your goal is more about removing suffering and finding peace then I do think they are an obstacle.

    You’re right that meditation brings peace, and also that in a way it is about what you need. For me personally, I already have a lot of peace in my life, and I am content with the way suffering is manifesting. It all seems to be in balance. But I am noticing that I have neglected my passions and my joys too much.

    It all reminds me of what Papaji said, that he had never encountered a Buddhist monk who was not dry inside. I think I’ve finally lost my desire to be a Buddhist monk, instead I intend to add a bit more joy to my life, and pay close attention to those things that give me pleasure.

    To me its not about a rule to follow or not. Its about the consequences and effects different actions produce.

    A good pointer, you can go blindly accepting rules from the vinaya but one should look at them critically. Not just in what they bring, but in the joys they take away.

    In my recent trip into D&D land I have been having fun, having laughs with people similar to me and imagining my characters. I also have been feeling a more obsessive sort of feeling in my heart where I can't turn off the thinking about it and the craving to do it all the time, it disrupts my sleep at times.

    I’m glad you’ve been enjoying it, it certainly seems to be having an impact if it disturbs sleep. But perhaps it is the disrupted sleep of an inner self parched of creative expression which is finally getting a little air.

    JeffreyDavid
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    My guilty pleasures at the moment are Star Trek, drumming and jazz fusion. Oh, and cannabis.

    The cannabis I have until Saturday morning when I get to recieve the Five Mindfulness Trainings transmission. This path has led me to give up psychedelic drugs, alcohol, nicotine, meat, video games, violent movies, an ok paying job and now cannabis.

    Drumming, Star Trek and jazz fusion.

    They stay!

    AlexlobsterBunksperson
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    It's hard being a practitioner @David but the benefits are worth it.

    What are the benefits of giving up violent movies such as the Sound of Music? For those who don't remember, it is about Nazis chasing an authoritarian and nun into refugee status (and their bizarre singing children).

    Are you allowed to watch Tom and Jerry? ;)

    howDavid
  • KeromeKerome Certainty is the enemy of wonder The Continent Veteran

    @lobster said:
    For those who don't remember, it is about Nazis chasing an authoritarian and nun into refugee status (and their bizarre singing children).

    For some reason @lobster your description makes me re-imagine the sound of music as it might have been if Tim Burton had directed it... dark, edgy, with those children made supernaturally bizarre and the singing curiously off-key. And with Johnny Depp.

    lobster
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited April 2

    @lobster said:
    It's hard being a practitioner @David but the benefits are worth it.

    What are the benefits of giving up violent movies...?

    It's about nutritious consumption which is basically the 5th Precept or Mindfulness Training. Mental health is important and we all make choices on what to take in that will affect our well being. It obviously depends on the morals implied because Star Trek, right?

    Are you allowed to watch Tom and Jerry? ;)

    It isn't that I'm not allowed so much as there are better things to do.

    lobster
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