How to use sangha?
Perhaps there is a sutra I could be pointed in the direction of...
To clarify my question though: How does one use a spiritual community to grow without becoming attached or dependent on that community? Hmm. Actually, that didn't manage to encapsulate the entirety of my question, so let me add this: How does one prevent ego from arising and sabotaging the whole endeavor? I have recently stepped into a community and I'm aware of thoughts arising (not just from me) leading to conceptual discussions that I'm not certain are doing anything but giving birth to some incredibly sexy spiritual thoughts that are trying to entice me (and others) down what looks like a dangerously deep rabbit hole. When does a Dharma discussion turn counter-productive?
Comments
When you realise you like the sound of your own voice.
When you think to yourself "Oh, that was clever, I know my stuff!"
When you listen to others and realise you are judging them by how much you agree - or disagree - with them.
When you realise you have entirely missed everything Fiona was saying because you were toó busy thinking about that pretty skirt she's wearing
When you just missed an important and valuable lesson, because you were wondering how many potatoes you had left in the larder...
What's the common denominator?
YOU.
'You' are.
See, the Dhamma talk is NEVER counter-productive.
You are.
Be Mindful, be present, be attentive.
Nothing heard then, can ever be counter-productive.
That is a great question that can be approached from many different directions.
The main point that I try to maintain in discussions with Sangha is speaking in a way that supports the intent of the precepts that one follows, the 4 NT & the 8 FP.
Is my speech in accord with a ceasing from evil, doing only good and a purifying of the heart/mind?
Does anything I'm saying support some form of killing/ stealing/ coveting/ saying that which is not true/ selling the wine of delusion/ speaking against others/ being proud of yourself & devaluing others/ anger or is a defamation the Buddha, Dharma or Sangha.
What actually is "right" speech?
It is not enough to speak truthfully of something if you can't also ascertain that this moment is actually the right time to speak of it.
The second point that I have come to appreciate is from Sangha's that have been taught that a discussion within a Dharma group has the potential to be a great teaching aid for any participants willing to keep their own ego's on a very short leash egos during this group activity. To this end, let there be only one voice speaking at any one time, that addresses everyone present and can be heard by everyone, rather than breaking off for individual discussions within the group as it is commonly seen in the world.
A Dharma discussion turns counter-productive when it creates more inertial movement towards sufferings cause than towards suffering's cessation.
Cheers all.
Indeed. I have 99 problems today - and I am all of them. But I am breathing and doing Spring cleaning, so there is hope.
How to Use Sangha?
"Therefore do these 8 kinds of individuals, these four noble pairs,
Deserve both gifts, self sacrifice, offerings, hospitality and reverential salutation with joined palms.
Since the noble Sangha community of the Buddha's noble disciples is indeed an unsurpassable, and forever unsurpassed, field of merit,
In this world,
For this world,
To honour, support, uphold, respect and protect."
The Buddha
When does a Dharma discussion turn counter-productive?
To quote Mr Shakespeare There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
When one becomes too attached to one's own thoughts....
It seems to be when thinking turns away from insight and learning dhamma, and becomes about upholding entrenched positions within the mind. It is often the people who think they know what it is about who cause the problems, and online people seem to give themselves license to “come out swinging”. Dhamma discussion is a great tool for learning where one is stuck.
Great question @yagr.
There is always hope whilst breathing.
At the moment the sky here is clear blue and empty. So in that sense there is no sangha, no dharma and no buddha. However ... I rather liked @federica cloud ...
The question is about transparency. When we clean, our efforts produce the ever present result of the future sprung.
We might say we resonate with the Truth, not all the sangha. We focus on the meaningful, not the dhrama. In essence we are bodhisatvas attuning to Buddha Bod Hi!
Hope that makes sense. Otherwise clouds, rain, water ...
Change Eternal.
How to use Sangha or be of service to one of the three jewels [me, mind and something or other ...]?
In this sense it is not what we get out but what we put in without noisy reward expectation or ostentatious interfacing.
We are independent in essence, through training in freedom ...
Hi @yagr
I am going to answer your question on 3 different levels.
https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html
In the suttas the word sangha (lit. "group, assembly") is usually used in one of two ways: it refers either to the community of ordained monks and nuns (bhikkhu-sangha and bhikkhuni-sangha) or to the community of "noble ones" (ariya-sangha) — persons who have attained at least stream-entry, the first stage of Awakening.
Other links:
https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/refuge.html#goi
If you share what tradition you practice in, I can help further.
From my perspective, in terms of the first question, you are there to practice and learn the forms and rituals that will help you practice. The practice is the Eightfold Path. There is no other purpose. I do not know who you practice with or within which tradition but if there is a teacher, then we hope that the teacher has some genuine understanding of practice. Your refuge is in the Triple Gems (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) so your main priority and focus is on the practice and the teachings, not anything external per se, although that which is external can help you learn the inner practice over time. That is the point of a community - helping everyone to flower safely and in well-being.
In terms of the second, longer question, it is not just about your ego or such. Use your natural discernment and common sense. If someone is leading you and others down a "dangerously deep rabbit hole", I would say it is a good time to extricate yourself from discussions and endeavors.
Remember - your focus and guide is only your practice (Eightfold Path). Your refuge is in the inner Buddha, Dhamma (teachings and practice) and Sangha (the community that has realization). It is not external.
Also, you should not think that anything negative is attributable to yourself. Again, use your discernment - if you can differentiate between positive and beneficial, and negative and not-wholesome, then use this knowing as your guide.
Gassho.
OP, it sounds like, if the community you recently joined already has you struggling with doubts, maybe it's not the right community for you. I don't know much about the situation, but the sound you hear may be that of red flags flapping in the wind. It might not be a bad idea to step back from it for a bit, to process your experience and get a more objective perspective over it. That's hard to do when you're immersed in it.
just a thought.
I think its not so much about doubts arising so much as how we respond to them.
Some of the most the most profoundly ego deluded sangha's have managed to achieve this state from the concerted banishing of doubts from their practice.
While the rejection of doubt is understandable for how it makes for an easier maintenance of the status quo within any tribe, that has more to do with control than with truth.
The arising of doubt needs to be given no more special treatment than any other visiting phenomena because the alternative is the habitual clinging to/ rejecting or the ignoring of doubt that keeps folks snoozing within the dream that the Buddha was trying to have his followers awaken from.
Just considering the possibility that ones actions in anything might be ego entangled to some extent, while not a comfortable exploration, help form the questions to ask ourselves that many spiritual tribes would prefer us to gloss over.
Ah ha!
First there is a rug to sit on ... and then it gets pulled from under us ...
Tee Hee! Are we sitting comfortably?
Time for real cushions that rock ...
In a similar way ... here are my cushion doubts, sitting quietly on my head ...
That’s a real rock, though, wearing the hat.
The answers you seek develop within yourself, slowly over the years and decades that you train your mind to observe yourself in the moment, and respond accordingly.
All interactions with others can be useful. I will give you two that involve the Sangha (remembering that Sangha includes the "deities" down to the monks down to those who take lessons from the monks). Everyone CAN be our kind teacher, even those who we get upset with:
1) A picnic in the backyard of our temple. Everyone chatting and trying to be charming and wise .. myself included. Then I look over at our Lama and saw that he was still and non-ego .. just being there. And I saw the difference between how he was being and how I was being.
2) Before a teaching, I was downstairs, taking off my coat and shoes, and one of the other members was berating another member for being "so stupid". I felt uncomfortable, and felt an urge to chastise her behavior .. and then remembered the teachings .. to take all discomfort as a self-commentary on what WE need to work on within ourselves. Our focus needs to be on how WE are responding and reacting.
I offer to you "Eight Verses for Training the Mind" .. given to us by our Lama so long ago. We were instructed to memorize it and repeat it inwardly several times a day .. especially in situations where it could be applied. At first I thought "You have GOT to be kidding", but years later, I started to see the value in these verses: This IS how Buddhists strive to respond to others:
http://www.khandro.net/practice_8verses.htm
Remember that suffering is caused by our attachments AND our aversions .. and so we learn to observe from a mind trained to focus through meditation ... and eventually we start to see the connection between cause and consequence. Buddhism is a learning tool for inner change.
@FoibleFull
Wonderful. Thanks so much. May I ask who you practice with? FoibleFull makes such a good point - when you see people who have practiced (genuinely practiced) and sense them, you will know that there is an entirely different way of being which is so far from our usual selves, that it will be beyond humbling.
Thanks for your sharing.
I practice with a Tibetan monk called Kushok Lobsang Dhamchoe. Our gatherings are now held on Zoom instead of us going to the Centre
A very great teacher and the student of another great teacher.
Who is his teacher @Choephal ?
K.L.D.’s main teacher was H.E. Lobsang Nyma Pal Sangpo a major lineage holder.