Respect for holy people
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
Lately a spiritual friend told me that his teacher of many years had gone into silence, and before doing so had said to him “it doesn’t matter what I say, the people make their own story of it.” Now this teacher had given up seeing students altogether.
It reminded me of what was told about Sri Ramana Maharshi, the holy man of Arunachala Mountain, who held that his most advanced students learned from his silence. A new disciple would first be tested to see if he could learn in silence, then he would be asked to try self-inquiry, and if he said that was not the way for him it would be suggested that singing bhajans and doing worship in the temple would be good for him.
So there are students of different measures of readiness and quality. According to the first teacher, there are many who lack the respect for a teacher’s words and will just repeat a few choice phrases, such as in the nonduality fad a few years ago for the phrase “you don’t exist”, while losing the proper context. There are undoubtedly some teachers who will retreat into silence because of this.
But I think it is in part due to the culture, and cultural changes of recent decades. Authority of all kinds is getting challenged, people feel more free to do their own thing especially in the West. The language of respect is heard less frequently. It makes me sad.
Comments
What does that language sound/ look like to you? What ways do you miss seeing ‘respect’? In other words…what do you specifically mean by the word respect? In the context of the teachers, specifically?
That’s a really good question, @Vastmind. I was thinking of things like people going away from a dharma talk in silence, to contemplate what was said, rather than immediately getting onto social media to share.
Because what you share is from your limited memory of events, and not necessarily what the teacher wanted to impart, sharing is not always respectful. Instead of sharing a quote, it might be better to say it was great and redirect people to a full recording of the talk.
Respect that is limited to holy people, just points out how little respect we have for everyone else.
As long as teachers allow students to simply swap gross attachments for more refined versions of the same, suffering for both teachers & students, will be inevitable.
Thank HH Princess Charlie and Mx Camel, everything is Holy/Unholy and wholly Holy in between.
Of course not all of us can-can distinguish. However there is a sample simple test. which could be just about everything …
This is true. I think that the internet leads to people not respecting skill, because they have all this knowledge at their fingertips. For example it used to be that you would listen carefully to your doctor and do what he or she said, whereas nowadays it’s quite common for people to look up symptoms and medications online and make their own decisions.
In spiritual circles there are also other forces at work, which lead to a kind of disrespect. People are separating from the old religions, and are often critical of the priests. Which is kind of fair enough, but there are mystics and psychics out there who have achieved real skill and presence. That is worthy of respect, even reverence.
It reminds me of the Indian greeting Namasté, which goes with the gesture of palms together and means “I greet the divine in you”…
Absolutely. But letting go of attachments, that is a difficult path, and you have to become aware of all the places where the modern world entices you to form new attachments. Advertising and marketing does little besides that.
A student of the 4NT & the 8FP might say that a path of indulgence in suffering's causes is clearly the most difficult path.
Only within this one fleeting nano second, is a less difficult path actually possible.
When the teacher's teachings are ready...the student will adhere
Afa the specific example you gave, how in the world would you enforce that? Have everyone at the talk sign an NDA? You can’t possibly control the mouths of others.As the teacher , All you can do is stand on business. You say what you say, and clarify if need be. Otherwise, not gossiping or lying about conversations or breaking the confidence of others or even repeating stories the correct way intended by the other person is an everyday problem with people in general. Family, co workers, etc. ……Right speech isn’t just a holy issue. Not to mention… when someone in a particular power dynamic/imbalance says, don’t go tell anyone this…. It’s usually a red flag.
I wouldn’t want to “enforce” it. Even just saying that means you are coming from a culture of force, of legalisms and contractual constraint. I am talking about building a culture of respect, a place where people will contemplate and quietly discuss, not take for their own uses. It has more to do with education, I thought @Shoshin1’s video captured it quite well.
When I was young I was part of the communes around Osho (then known as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) and the sannyasins were a lot like that. Osho was the enlightened master, and we were the 10,000 Buddhas (a matter of speech, not so serious) around him, learning from discourses but also receiving his blessings. It was very much a culture of respect where people on a daily basis would discuss the day’s discourse, let it do its work and then let it go.
In the end you can’t stop people from taking the words and building on them, but in the right culture far fewer people do that, because it wouldn’t be accepted by their peers. In the land of social media for many people everything turns about the image they project, they become their own marketing departments, it’s very unhealthy.
It’s like old sannyasins used to finish letters with:
Love
His blessings
Anyway, sorry to get all nostalgic for long ago. But there are still things the 1970’s communes can teach us, if we are willing to listen.
@jeroen …. Ok, I hear ya.
Even just saying what you said….means you are coming from a culture of Osho…so, here we are. 😉
Respect to all ❤️
No but it’s not just that. In the East things are very different with respect for teachers, it is a cultural thing which shifts over time. Not that there aren’t people in the West who have a good attitude, but there are also a lot who are rather hmmm.
By the way the friend I mentioned in the OP and his teacher are both Belgian. The teachers story is quite interesting, he was a bodybuilder when young, a very disciplined man, who had an accident in his thirties which put him in a coma for eighteen months, and when he woke up he had developed a range of psychic powers, which he used to encourage people to follow a spiritual path.
Yes, I know they are. .I think I’ll just let u have this one. Thanks for answering my initial question.
@Jeroen
imo no title is no hastle. in zen be, no one is higher or lower than another but equal footing. with no title zen be-nature shines with the void of silence or the dao, we know without saying. holyness is just a label. that is why it can be a hastle to the teacher. it must be hard being holy. me plain dirt human.
No, I don’t think it is. It is something you are, or become, or acquire. Something that happens to you, perhaps? But it is something palpable, perceivable.
thanks for chatting with me. agree those profession is earned or gain. the issue is too lofty title. The word is percieve special, holier than thou attitude. when scandle is exposed was the person holy to begin with. imo, people have to discern if his his title is his nature. sadly fall from grace happens.
i guess its my preference, is the teacher meet me as i am an ordinary soul like him,perfectly human with flaws and all. my philosophy to my self, be yourself and cut the bullshit .
...speaking of bullshit, knowing your a piece of shit, such as me, the is peace and relating to all being fun.but if your shit smells better than others,imo a lost "I"making person.
....this lead to the question:what ego you trust. sure there are genuane holy soul. but meeting lay holysoul they don't advertize it. thats my experience. in our zen tradition the are real heart like you attitude we call a holy bodissatva.