Joining the army

Fenix

In finland where I live it is mandatory to participate in the army. You can refuse, go to jail or ask go some where else to do something I cant remember, exuse me. I was thinking though I would apply for the air force in the army. War is a interesting debate in buddhism, so would it be wrong to join the army for livelihood?

Im aware that it is said that do not make a livelihood of killing people. Is this exactly what this means?

Thanks

Mountains

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules on this. Certainly Tibet had an army, and used it to defend itself (in vain) against the Chinese invasion. The prohibition against violence and killing do not extend to self-protection, but obviously if you can protect yourself without killing, all the better.

In your case, I don't think Finland has ever been involved in an aggressive war in its history. The only wars were wars of self-protection from outside invaders. And since military service is compulsory, it would seem to me that serving is your civic duty as a citizen. I think the dharma is pretty clear that you shouldn't take lives for a living (such as being a butcher). I don't think it's completely clear about serving in the military. Interestingly, the US military has provisions for Buddhist chaplains, although there are none serving currently.

Perhaps you could request to be put into some sort of job like the medical service or food service where you would not be directly involved in combat should it occur?

Mtns

FoibleFull

According to the Buddhist monk (a Tibetan) who teaches us, it's not a matter of prohibition or not. We just need to be aware that ALL killing, intentional, accidental, or in self-defense, results in negative karma. The only difference is that the karma for intentional killing is much more negative than the karma for accidental or self-defense killing.

Mountains

Does that even apply to irritating house flies and biting insects? If so I may be in trouble

Mtns

emh1701

Mountains wrote: »

Does that even apply to irritating house flies and biting insects? If so I may be in trouble

Mtns

I live in Minnesota and we get mosquitoes in the summer, so I would be in trouble as well.

fivebells

Buddhist proscriptions aside, the reason to avoid the army is that you will be a de facto slave for the duration of your time with them.

MatSalted

fivebells wrote: »

Buddhist proscriptions aside, the reason to avoid the army is that you will be a de facto slave for the duration of your time with them.

I agree. There are more reasons than the dharmic not to support the military complex.

KnightofBuddha

Fenix wrote: »

In finland where I live it is mandatory to participate in the army. You can refuse, go to jail or ask go some where else to do something I cant remember, exuse me. I was thinking though I would apply for the air force in the army. War is a interesting debate in buddhism, so would it be wrong to join the army for livelihood?

Im aware that it is said that do not make a livelihood of killing people. Is this exactly what this means?

Thanks

Well I think it's very honorable to serve in the military, providing your country isn't run by the likes of Kim Jung Ill or the Iranian mullahs. Finland's military has a proud history of resisting aggression and totalitarianism (The Winter War). Your former president Marshal Gustav Mannerheim is one of my personal heroes.

Fenix

Buddhist proscriptions aside, the reason to avoid the army is that you will be a de facto slave for the duration of your time with them.

that is so true

person

[quote=Mountains;94489]Does that even apply to irritating house flies and biting insects? If so I may be in trouble

Mtns[/quote]

I live in Minnesota and we get mosquitoes in the summer, so I would be in trouble as well.

I'm afraid so, you can blow the mosquitos away or swipe them off instead of killing them though.

You might like this video of the Dalai Lama:

mithril

Well as far as i see it is quite wrong. Look at the "tools of the trade". Aren't most of those that are peculiar to the military designed especially to go against percept #1?

zidangus

According to the Buddhist monk (a Tibetan) who teaches us, it's not a matter of prohibition or not. We just need to be aware that ALL killing, intentional, accidental, or in self-defense, results in negative karma. The only difference is that the karma for intentional killing is much more negative than the karma for accidental or self-defense killing.

I do not agree that non-intentional killing could lead to negative karma. The interpretation I agree with is below.


"The Sanskrit word Karma (or kamma in Pali) literally means action. In Buddhism however, karma mainly refers to one's intention or motivation while doing an action. The Buddha said:

“It is volition that I call karma; for having willed, one acts by body, speech, and mind.”
AN 3:415, from In the Buddha’s Words, p. 146."

Taken from
http://viewonbuddhism.org/karma.html

Metta to all sentient beings

PeacefulAssemblyChur

I would go to jail.
I came upon this qoute (once again) just yesterday: "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for, but no causes that I am prepared to kill for." - Mahatma Gandhi

hermitwin

What if the mosquito was your mother in a previous life?
What about the negative karma of killing?

However, most people think killing mosquitoes is no big deal.
You have to decide for yourself.

Speaking of Finland, its a great country that I admire
but not for the wars it fought.

NOTaGangsta

Sometimes people take for granted the positive aspects of the millitary. Such as disaster relief and defending the nation. Atrocities are commited by people who are ignorant and gets dragged into the herd mentality out of fear and other emotions. If your a good practioner, maybe you can add another positive force into the millitary.

federica

If you're a good practitioner, you put yourself as much out of harm's way as you can, and try to work in an area where you won't be killing people.

If you can.

andyZ

I don't know the rules in Finland but in many countries where there's mandatory military service, there's "alternative service", even in countries like Russia. You'd serve as a nurse in a retirement home or something like that. So if you're really against it, there're ways of not serving in the army and still be a good citizen.

Fenix

I choose communications. They say when a "communication soldier" grabs hold of his gun the war is lost.

DaltheJigsaw

[quote=Mountains;94489]Does that even apply to irritating house flies and biting insects? If so I may be in trouble

Mtns[/quote]

I live in Minnesota and we get mosquitoes in the summer, so I would be in trouble as well.

I'm afraid so, you can blow the mosquitos away or swipe them off instead of killing them though.

You might like this video of the Dalai Lama:

NIce!
But the title of the video is misleading as others have mentioned on youtube site.
He said flick... not kill...

ThailandTom

Sure, join the army, sign up with the permission to kill one of the most precious forms of life, sometimes innocent lives. Sign up instead of going to prison where you will not die, but suffer and probably have the opportunity to expand your buddhist practice, or that 'something else' you spoke of.

I personally would either go to jail or see what that something else was

Fenix

Going to jail! I would never get a job again. or to start with anyway. Maybe it would deepen my buddhist practice, but being here in the army so far has been really tough, I can only imagine.

I actually came here by choice or I was already dismissed, but later I wanted to get into a school that requiers the "mandatory" service been to be done. I dont think I could kill anyone. But I dont think its that easy when your in a war.

NOTaGangsta

Think of it this way, other people join the army, so we don't have to do the killing. Guess we should be grateful!

ThailandTom

wouldn't it be great if every country and person had no sense of an ego and no need for an army. think of the money, it could be spent on schools and health systems, the possibilities are numerous

hermitwin

i like this

compassionate_warrior

[quote=Mountains;94489]Does that even apply to irritating house flies and biting insects? If so I may be in trouble

Mtns[/quote]

I live in Minnesota and we get mosquitoes in the summer, so I would be in trouble as well.

Yes, you guys, no killing bugs. We had a couple of threads on this last fall: Would you kill a Mosquito, and another, Would you kill a fly? There's no need to kill innocent critters. Prevention is always the best: have screens on your windows and doors, wear clothing that covers you up when you go outside during mosquito season. If a bug gets into your house (bees, flies), brush it out the window. If a mosquito lands on you, blow it off with your breath. Some members said they let the mosquitos feed on them, as a sort of sacrifice. HHDL says he has to worry about malaria, so he sometimes swats them. Do your best.

wouldn't it be great if every country and person had no sense of an ego and no need for an army. think of the money, it could be spent on schools and health systems, the possibilities are numerous

You said it, man!! But we'd have to cut back on our oil consumption, to eliminate the need for going to war over oil.

jenzay

I think you should try and do the alternative service, whatever it is.
But if that's not an option, I think going to jail in order not to kill, is more honorable than joining the army.

Aside from that, I know how tempting the air force looks. I swear I will fly a fighter jet before I die! ...without the fighting part.

Spaceless

In finland where I live it is mandatory to participate in the army. You can refuse, go to jail or ask go some where else to do something I cant remember, exuse me. I was thinking though I would apply for the air force in the army. War is a interesting debate in buddhism, so would it be wrong to join the army for livelihood?

Im aware that it is said that do not make a livelihood of killing people. Is this exactly what this means?

Thanks

Nothing wrong to join for livelihood. It even useful to alleviate and calm internal disorder as happen in some countries. Moreover, you ought to help your country to defray budget to stimulate the economy through defence spending. otherwise, the coffer becomes like dead sea.

Fenix

I think you should try and do the alternative service, whatever it is.
But if that's not an option, I think going to jail in order not to kill, is more honorable than joining the army.

Aside from that, I know how tempting the air force looks. I swear I will fly a fighter jet before I die! ...without the fighting part.

I didnt join the air force. I want really interested. however I am applying for aviation school to fly commercial, so that's why I'm doing my time. I chose communications for one its easier and two I have a degree in electioncs so if I mess up the admission to aviation school I'll have something to back up my current profession. jeez I hope this isint too much personal information. At the moment Im sitting at the barracks entrance desk "patroling". every one is on holiday and the house is pretty much empty. great time for meditation!

NOTaGangsta

The Buddha never condemned the army or wars. But it's all about the intentions. Countries are just like people, they suffer the collective karma of their millitary actions if it's unjust. If more soldiers and millitary commanders are buddhists, it would be a good thing.