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Simple (mabye) question about intoxicants
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My experience has found recommending drugs to others is something exceptionally dangerous.
I am prepared to acknowledge one may develop a genuine perception they have gained some benefit from drugs but not all people have the same mental disposition and many people have very strong weaknesses in relation to drugs.
This is a very dangerous realm to enter.
Kind regards
DD
Alcohol can make one 'addicted to the cycle of suffering.'
One reason I'm a Buddhist -- Buddha was such ... I'm going to say genius here that it blows my mind. It's like he doesn't just think "outside the box" he found the box with all the answers and sat in it. HAHAHAHA what do you htink of that it might be stupid but I'm going to post it ahahaa.
I can see that for someone who is experiencing pre-schizophrenic symptoms, something that transposes different perceptual realities on top of your normal one would not be useful. What is even more concerning, is that often some trauma triggers the first full blown psychosis. This could be something that happens on one of your mental adventures.
Did this prodromal diagnosis happen after drug use? It might simply be that your brain has some issues from drugs, and with meditation, sobriety and time you'll heal and become more stable. Either way, I wish you strength and will keep you in my thoughts.
With warmth,
Matt
This is a point that I hadn't fully considered, thank you. Too often I get caught up with whether something can be reasoned and substantiated without considering whether it's actually beneficial to others to do so.
One does not necessarily negate the other.
Er...yes, on here, it's seen as consensual support if such matters are not challenged. it's approval by association.
I have a friend who runs a forum who just had to cough up $10,000 for a gross breach of this very law. you don't need to respect the law.
But you have to obey it.
Fortunate then, that you're not the one having to make the decisions here, really, isn't it?
THE DIFFERENCE BEING THAT THEY ARE LEGAL, PRESCRIBED AND NECESSARY.
so yet again, you're using a hollow argument.
:rolleyes: see above comment....
And....?
Are these mushrooms legal? prescribed for certain conditions?
if so, great. They're administered in a controlled way. if not..... see above.
Again. :buck:
I did. Given that we produce it or a specific mental function, unless we have a mental condition that produces this in abnormal quantities, it's not a problem, and cannot be likened to taking Mind-altering drugs for recreational use.
I think we've done this to death, so feel free to rant further if it floats your boat.
I'm done here with justification.
I've made my position abundantly clear. Several times over.
if you don't like my style of Moderation, take it to Admin.
Otherwise, let's change the subject.
Yes, some people do. I wonder who?
With warmth,
Matt
Matt do you watch TV? I was trying to make a point.
Yes it was certainly after drug use. The whole thing is confusing for me.
Something messed up is that a phycic told my ex girlfriend I would be abusing drugs for the rest of my life. That's not something I would look forward too. It's kinda been bothering me.
I was being warm, certainly. I don't assume you're wrong, but you do seem to ignore pretty direct evidence of the dangers, for some reason. This usually happens because of attachment.
I watch some T.V. mostly cooking shows, discovery, history and science channels. To me it seems like grasping at straws, calling drugs and television the same. Try a better metaphor maybe?
The point is not to be deluded from the truth. The drugs you refer to have the tendency to do that, in 99% of the users. No? Its impossible to speak in absolutes, because everyone is different, so to say something is explicitly helpful or harmful has no real place here. Just don't be ignorant to the truth of the dangers.
With much warmth... *hugs* even,
Matt
Well if you imagine taking those drugs like smashing your brain into a wall, then the 'bruising' could be those prodromal symptoms. Try going without drugs for awhile, and when crazy stuff seems to be happening, just try to relax and realize you're healing. I had a friend who went near crazy after a bad LSD trip, and it took three years to heal his perceptions, but it did get better.
Psychics (even the best, most open ones) have the tendency to say what needs saying in the moment, not expressing some lifetime's worth of journey. The harmony they listen to changes even as they speak it, so don't worry. If you have the will and the desire to not do drugs, the psychic will be wrong. Maybe the reason it was said was to help you with the strength to prove her wrong!
With warmth,
Matt
Who the people who say drugs are OK and can infact lead to some revelation about reality? Or the people who have pointed out that Buddhism says this is not the case, that
1. The revelations are delusional.
2. Socially it causes great harm, and present evidence, my wifes work in poor area where drugs and drink have lead to massive mental health problems in the youth, as well as all the social problems that go with it. Or another example, one of my friends who got a first from university, he's spent the last 20 years as a smack head on and off methadone, on the dole all the time. 20+ years ago we used to we used to meditate together, when he went to uni he got in with a crowd, who not only told him it was fun to take drugs but was also spiritual. Now you have to be predisposed to think that, but presenting the spiritual aspect here can continue that cycle of buddhism / hippies / drugs and lead to danger. Buddhism is here to end suffering not to make it worse.
Absolutely. I have given examples on one of these drug threads about people I've known personally who's lives were ruined. As a schoolteacher I've also encountered whole families, as well as individual kids, who have ended up in very sad, and sometimes tragic circumstances due to drugs.
I think its also wise to remember that we have teenage members here who joined presumably to learn more about Buddhism rather than about drug taking.
.
I don't take refuge in pseudo-psychics, crystal balls and ex-girlfriends. I take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. How about you?
At least the drugs I am interested in help people lose ignorance regarding ego and greed.
There does not appear to be a lack of ego or greed in your posts about this. I would venture to say that the sensual aspects of drug-taking creates a deep dissatisfaction with not-high reality... ie craving, which is a child of ego and greed. Maybe it simply focuses the energy of ego into pleasure/fulfillment so there is not as much "need for cars" but instead a "need for fix". The stronger the intoxicant and the more the use, the more patterned the craving.
With warmth,
Matt
Yes but no one here is telling people that watching TV and ads will make them a better person. However you are advising that drug taking can make you a better person, losing ego and greed. Particularly to an OP who has admitted to having first onset of psychotic episodes, which are thought to be brought on by use of drugs.
(OP = Original Post/er)
How did those guys come to conclusions such as "we are all one" with the use of lsd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hW6Dm_m5t4
This is coming from a Buddhist who still gets drunk and says stupid things.
Theoretically, a drug that would shut up the chatting monkey mind and would permit deep meditations and achieving high levels of awareness would lead to insights...
Breaking through the walls of our self made delusion while meditating affects the way we see reality, in theory regardless of drug used or not.
Taking drugs to find enlightenment is just as hit and miss as not taking drugs to find enlightenment.
Also, there is very little to say that any drugs actually shut up the monkey mind or just cover it up. I've heard a crazy amount of people say Cannabis slows the mind down, but from my expereince it makes it go batshitcrazy.
Keeping the elements of the formula as simple as they can be, to make the point as clear as possible.
In that case, I'd take it myself.
(after reading reviews lol)
No.
Why do you expect me to change my position?
Please don't expect me to prevaricate or show indecision.
If you wish to PM the links to people, feel free.
If people feel like opening them, that is their choice, in private.
but the reasons I deleted the threads, still stand.
In reality, nothing is perfect.
Subject the mind to a toxic chemical that is not perfect, and, well.
I'll leave it to your conclusion.
at least, without the stimulus of drugs, if we are delusional, we know it's all from within our own mind, not one subjected to the influence of a (more often than not) illegal drug.
I suppose my point here is that while I disagree with "Questionful's" POV, and while I think the vast majority of Buddhism shows his position to be outside the norm of any reasonable understanding of the suttas and precepts, I also respectfully disagree with the need to censure this person unless the frequency of posts is inappropriate or if he/she is disrespectful in the process of communication (which of course, would be unacceptable no matter what).
Here is a another reason why I am slightly troubled by the firm censorship. According to Thich Nhat Hahn, a glass of wine with dinner is a violation of the fifth precept. Period. End of Story. Well, he is entitled to believe that, but I believe his view is extreme, and it misses the point of the teaching.
Not only because a glass of wine with dinner is beneficial for your health, but also because it does not impart a change of mental clarity. I say this with no small amount of chagrin because of how incredible Thich Nhat Hahn is in thousands of ways compared to me, but quite frankly, that is not the only teachings of his that I do not agree with.
As far as alcohol use, I have to go back 22 years on the calendar to point to the last time I was under the influence of alcohol (that was a couple years before I started by Buddhist journey), and as far as I am concerned, I have absolutely zero interest in ever clouding my mind with booze again. I can confidently say that I will never be under the influence again. I enjoy having one beer at a soccer match. I enjoy one glass of wine with friends. If some Buddhist believes that is breaking the fifth precept, I will have to respectfully disagree. I am mindful to ensure I have some food with the drink, and never have more than one.
As far as other substances (LSD, Peyote, cocaine etc.) such things are a serious step backwards for people on the dhamma path. There isn't a serious culinary use for these drugs..that is, people rarely have any use for them as food or a digestive, and there is no using them even in very, very small quantities that does not immediately lead to intoxication. So I would agree with the vast majority of practitioners who have correctly interpreted that such substances are a violation of the fifth precept for those exact reasons. People who claim that the Buddha only disallowed intoxication by alcohol are completely misguided and that point of view has been debunked academically. The Buddha obviously was teaching about the state of intoxication, a state of heedlessness, not the substance being used to generate it.
Even so, if there is a fellow dhamma practitioner who does believe that LSD use is okay, I want to hear their case as long as their approach to discussion is reasonable, and they are able to provide evidence for it. I doubt they will be able to find many credible Buddhist sources, but then again, I could be wrong. Lastly, even HHDL has mentioned that when science disagree with Buddhist teachings, then science should win out. That is one reason why I love Buddhism so much...we are not reactionary, dogmatic fundamentalists. We are always open minded and are willing to adjust our beliefs to reality. So if this person wants to submit evidence outside ancient texts and use modern psychology instead, I am personally fine with that.
Of course I realize I have no vote in the matter, but felt it was important to share why I was disheartened by the stern warnings on what seemed like a rather harmless--albeit a little misguided--post about drug use. In fact, by allowing the post, it gives us a chance to change this person's mind. Perhaps there is a long history with this person I am not aware of (grant you that), just know that I'm only sharing a reaction from a limited, "outsiders" perspective.
With great respect and consideration,
TxH
Time to move on, perhaps?
.
So you're setting yourself up as some kind of authority saying that LSD can be beneficial ? A Tibetan teacher who had seen many LSD casualties once told me it was definately not beneficial.
Please don't recommend Timothy Leary's nonsense to people nor encourage them to consider using drugs for Buddhist practice. I took hallucinogenics and other drugs when I was a student and its a fool's paradise and diddy la la land.
The effects of drugs wear off because its an artificially induced high. Only drug free practice will truly be beneficial and provide lasting insights.
Wise up - say 'No' to drugs.
.
I found one of the related videos to be fairly insightful: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=T3ixRqOauq4 (try to ignore the background sound, it's pretty distracting). It's more about addiction and attachment then drug use itself, but I still think it's relevant to this discussion.
you agree..?
So what's the other side of the coin?
Heads, I think.
See, I'm having real difficulty in seeing how taking illegal recreational drugs can have a lasting, positive, beneficial and advantageous effect.
However, some people WILL have positive experiences with hallucinogens that can lead to a sober quest for enlightenment. In the right setting, they can open one's mind to the realization that there is more to life than the illusions that usually block our third eye.
In the wrong setting, they can lead to a terrible experience. I completely agree that people should not go about recklessly recommending hallucinogens on a message board. People have shared their personal experiences of bad trips/friends who have had bad reactions to these drugs. These anecdotes are REAL and not to be understated. That does not mean that there is nothing to be gained from these drugs IN THE RIGHT SETTING. But do NOT recommend these drugs to others, especially to people that you do not not know, and especially not on a public message board where certain people are responsible for such illegal content.
If enlightenment is what you seek, skip the drugs. They are a hindrance, or at the very least, simply not necessary.
Actually, laws are a simple expression of social norms within a given culture. When deviance from a norm appears to disrupt the needs of the social group, the deviance is given an object or mode of dissuading, like a punishment. It isn't the guns or 'the man' that enforces these laws, its the social bonding of the participants of the culture.
With warmth,
Matt
with a bit of lukewarmth,
pietro
For all these people who have come to the conclusion that lsd or mushrooms can lead to a feeling of oneness this is silly. I have taken mushrooms and meditation lead me to a way more comforting feeling of oneness as anything
As far as how tedious as this is getting, I sure didn't expect this to be 96 posts of nothing to do with the academic perspective of if the Lord Buddha ever said that they are "evil". I appologize.
Recreational drugs and reccomending drugs are not for serious Buddhist practitioners.
One question I forgot to ask was I heard one western studier of Eastern Buddhism say that nobody really knows the literal translation of the fifth precept. Perhaps I can get the thread going with the question that has anyone else heard this as well? Of course even if it is true I still believe drugs are not for serious Buddhists... from experience I know they lead one astray.
I also believe that if one thinks there are benefits of drugs, in many cases like a public forum they should keep them to themselves.
Say I was having difficulty seeing how meditation could have lasting positive effects. What would be the solution? I say the solution would be to look for more information regarding meditation. To learn about meditation so that i could better judge it. To ask people for information about it, seek information about it, watch youtube videos of experts talking about what meditation is and how it should be used. I could also look for studies that use statistics to measure the likelyhood of meditation having positive effects for an individual. And of course, I could practice meditation. If the first time I meditated didn't bring me the results others claimed can be found, I would try again and keep practicing unless it would hurt me.
I think completely ignoring and blocking out all talk about meditation would not help me; it would not be a solution.
And as Meditation is something universally recommended and legal, and costs nothing, and has no brain-damaging side-effects....
What would you like to know?