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The EightFold Path

federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
edited January 2008 in Buddhism Today
Ok, here's the Thing:

Recently, for whatever reasons one might try to divine, we have had an influx of controversial, provocative and argumentative posts, which has brought certain qualities, in certain individuals, to light. And the responses to these posts, from established members, have been admirable. I think, if one were to go over the relevant threads, we would see that for the most part, we have tried to adhere to our Creed, Faith, Belief or whatever you'd like to call it.
But I would suggest that, given that this site is Buddhist, this has always acted as a reminder for us, whilst posting and responding, to adopt a Buddhist attitude and 'frame of Mind'.
For my part, it is not always easy to remain Mindful, once I'm let loose on an unsuspecting world.... and if I might venture to be so bold, Comically Insane admitted in his 'I'm Losing Control' Thread, that it had been difficult for him, in the past, to retain a sense of what he had chosen to adopt as His Way. And if I may be even bolder, Brian too, had his moment of darkness.....
So I propose that maybe, for the next Eight Weeks, we Open a thread per week on each of the Eight 'spokes of the Wheel'.
We already have a Stickied Thread discussing Books, so how about Starting a Thread on Right View, coming in, posting what your opinion or interpretation of this Discourse is, and giving examples of how, During This Week, you intend to implement this aspect of the Path.
The Eight are inseparable, interchangeable and inteconnected. In reality, I know they are all intertwined and inextricably linked. But it is in this way that they are transmitted, so I propose we stick to the 'formula' as we have learnt it thus far.
I shall start the Thread on Right View, this coming Sunday evening.... it will be a continuation of this thread, but I'd value input on how other members feel about doing this....
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Comments

  • edited October 2005
    For someone not around any buddhists this would be an excellent way of focusing myself on the path, plus a good place to ask all my niggling little questions.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    An excellent idea, Fede.
  • edited October 2005
    This is a wonderful idea! :) Maybe for new people we should have a clear explanation of the Eightfold Path??
  • edited October 2005
    Fed, I think it is a great idea. Count me in.
  • edited October 2005
    I think it sounds wonderful. Especially for us newbies! I've read different things on the eightfold path (and am getting ready to start on Thich Naht Hanh's - The Heart of Buddha's Teachings), but I'm still fairly new to it and have only my past experience to rely on for insight. Mike and I both will be very happy to hear everyone's views.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Oh.... okay.

    I guess I'm in.

    -bf
  • edited October 2005
    I'm here to learn. Thank you for providing the opportunity.
  • edited October 2005
    Fed,

    I think that is a great idea! I know I would benefit from it for sure! I can have my moments that get me crazy and mad. I figure I am a work in progress. LOL!:crazy:

    Adiana:mullet:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    OK, I'm going to start the ball rolling....
    Here are a few preliminary thoughts on Right View.... I'm sure I don't need to say that by starting this discussion, i've set myself up as the authority. We're all in this together, and I can't wait to see how things develop, and how this discussion grows! Remember: it's personal interpretation and demonstration....! :)

    What do people understand, when they think or speak of 'Right View'? Is it how we physically see things, ie that we should read, and watch and perceive only the things that we judge for ourselves, to be Right? Or is it more to do with a point of View? An opinion, a way of seeing things?
    In my opinion, it is a combination of the two.
    While we are surrounded by images that we cannot help but look at or see, inadvertently or otherwise, it is up to us to accept that which will be constructive, and to reject, or put aside, that which we feel is detrimental to our progress. Reject, but not necessarily condemn. What may be 'wrong' for us, may be 'right' for someone else. (Like for example, some religious texts....)
    Some 'negative' things we see may indeed be useful to us, in that they will indicate something which will immediately help us to develop compassion, and reject what the image depicts.... such as a violent episode on television, or a distressing item on the news. We therefore reject violence, developping compassion for both the victim AND the aggressor....The item on the news may stimulate us into action, by responding in a caring and altruistic way.... like the famine in Africa or the problems in New Orleans....
    But these are fairly easy 'Views' for the individual to judge and to assess for themselves.
    More difficult is the 'Point of View' definition....
    Everything begins with the seed of the Thought in your Mind.

    "It all starts in your head, with what you tell yourself."

    I used to be very quick to reply to the comments of others, and to give an opinion on discussions, comments and statements. And invariably, I'd walk away from the discussion, wishing I hadn't said something the way I'd said it, or wishing I'd said something I hadn't! I often replayed encounters over and over again in my head, in order to insert a different - winning - slant on things! Now you may think i'm encroaching on 'Right Speech' here... but as I said in my first post, you can't separate the Eight.... but Right View seems to pre-empt all the others....
    So even before we have GIVEN our point of view, we have first thought of, or about, it.

    Thus have I heard:
    "Develop a Mind that clings to nothing’. Be mindful of not only what you see, but of HOW you see things; your point of view should be as flexible as a reed in a spring breeze: well anchored, but subject to the energies that may move it this way and that - ever ready to accept the changes Life inevitably brings, without being so rigid as to reject them without so much as a glance."

    I now have a far greater tendency to STOP - and think, before I commit myself to a response. I still foo it up occasionally, but where possible, I will remain silent, giving my poor little mind a fighting chance to cogitate, and to not have to extricate the foot from the mouth, later! I take much longer to consider the content of my posts. I used to come in and answer, and put anything, to participate, to join in, to belong.....
    Now I consider my point of view much more carefully, and reflect both on the truth of what I see in the context, and the way it will affect others when I expound it.....

    Do I always get it right? probably not. But I DO try. (Right Effort.....:) !)

    This week, I have a challenging situation.
    I have to travel 900-odd kilometres across the country to attend an arbitrary session, where I will be arguing that the company I was due to work for, has reneged on a contract I believe they had prepared for me.
    My future depends on this hearing.
    I am not currently elligible for either Unemployment Benefit, or Social Security.
    Nick, who was working for the same company, managed, after some legal wrangling, to oblige them to honour his contract in full, which meant that they legally had to pay his salary until November, although he was made to leave in August. Because his income technically runs until November, I'm therefore not elligible for financial assistance. I therefore have absolutely NO income currently at all, and our situation is serious - MY situation is critical.
    As I've often said before, for me, Life runs on two planes; and while on a practical level, I have had to be logical, level-headed and precise (and what would I have done without Nick!?!) on the other plane, I have to - well, 'Right Everything' - !!
    I have to stop and consider the View of Things.
    I KNOW that what this company has done, in anyone's eyes, is wrong and frankly, immoral. I intend to invoke the full letter of the law at my disposal to secure justice and the Right Result for myself. But I will have to See this in the Right Frame of Mind.

    And it must follow, that I do the same thing, with everything that comes my way.
    This week, I'm aiming for Right View in all things.....
    I'll give my summary next sunday.....!



  • edited October 2005
    Forgive my ignorance on this but when we talk about right view are we talking about seeing the world as it really is (i.e. an objective, external world), or is it about how we see the world (i.e. through eyes of compassion, subjective).

    Sorry to take things back to duality again but it's such in ingrained concept it's hard to avoid.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    Both, and all.... View is our perception, our objective appraisal of that which we experience..... but that's just my interpretation.... i'm a very simple Soul, TwoBit Bob, so I'm very simple in my outlook. It's like describing a field of flowers.... depending on how simple or complex you want to make it (Horticultural, biological, artistic, naturalistic....) everyone comes up with a different slant - but it's all the same really.....
    Do I make any sense....?:wtf:
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2005
    All,

    Please take the time to read the Discourse on Right View: Sammaditthi Sutta: MN 9

    Jason
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    Thank you as always Elohim, for the links you indicate; but this thread is mainly about personal view and experience, and implementation of the Eightfold Path. Please come back in and share.... ;)
  • edited October 2005
    i guess i just wanted a yes or no, this or that answer. i know life's not like that but it doesn't stop me looking.

    Hey, are there any exercises we could do to help with right view?
    This morning i became aware of the labels/expectations i put on people i've never met based on what they look like. Is this an example of fostering right view?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    Yes, I believe you could put them under this category....It's keeping an open mind on your opinion - or Point of View - of what someone is like, until we've had a chance to talk to them, or interact with them. Maybe this comes under Right Intention, or even Right Awareness too.....as I've said.... there are no rigid parameters to the Eightfold Path.... they do overlap and interconnect....just as we all do.... :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2005
    Fede,

    My apologies.

    :)

    Jason
  • edited October 2005
    To me there is always duality in all things. Yin and Yang, Dark and Light. Right view is how we look at this duality and just accept it for what it is. Neither leaning to one side or the other. Just accepting that both must exsist in order for things to be whole. One cannot have compassion without having aggression to feed that compassion.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    I think (and please accept that this is my view of Right View) that samyag drishti (Right View) is, like all the elements of the Noble Path, is a process and a progress (apparently, but that's another story).

    As has been pointed out over and again, although the watches of the night under the tree of enlightenment may have been the culminating time of realisation of the Dharma by Gautama, this was the end of a long process. In 'historical' terms, he had been through luxury, selfishness, self-denial and all that stuff without finding the answer to his questions about unsatisfactoriness. In 'story' terms, he had gone through multiple hundreds of lives before arriving at his awakening.

    Saying that Right View is 'this' or 'that' is like saying that a mayonnaise is an egg yolk, or oil or lemon juice, mustard or sugar. It is all those things (plus a strong wrists) but goes beyond them.

    Of course, we need the recipe; we need to assemble the ingredients and to prepare them. So, to stretch the image somewhat, Right View may be the preparation of the egg: separating the white from the yolk.

    For me, it is the awareness (Right Mindfulness) of the lenses through which I see the world and the prejudices, presuppositions and categories that I take for granted. Not the least of these is the belief that "I" and "that" are separate.

    Here's an exercise that I was given and which has occupied many an hour of my life:
    Go to a place, any place (although I usually choose the open air. But have done it in the kitchen, too). Open your eyes. Are they wide open? OK now open them again!
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2005
    All,

    For me Right View has become quite simple. Right View to me is the knowledge that all I see, hear, say, think, and feel is dukkha (ultimately unsatisfactory), anicca (impermanent), and anatta (not-self). The rest of the Path begins from there...

    :)

    Jason
  • edited October 2005
    I know there is no good/evil or right/wrong in the True reality but how do you keep Right View in mind when you have things happen to you, your family, and friends that seem to be evil or wrong?

    For instance my in-laws house was just broken into (for the fifth time) just recently. This past weekend I overheard my father-in-law telling some guests that the detectives said it was more than likely a drug addict that broke in looking for money. I wanted to say something along the lines that it could have been a starving person looking for money or food for their family, but I didn't want to upset an already touchy situation. So I guess my question is what should I have done if anything?
    Dawn
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited October 2005
    I know what you mean, Dawn.

    I know of people in my life that I would consider... just plain, old, mean, bad people.

    And yet, it seems they flourish throughout their lives. They do bad things to other people - screw them over - and still seem to escape bad things. Is there something that I'm missing?

    I guess, after thinking about it with a Buddhist mind, these things will happen. There is no predestination or anything else for that matter that details why things happen - they just do.

    If there is a thing, such as karma, maybe it is something that plays out in another cycle.

    I guess you could console yourself with the thought that your in-laws are still safe and I guess you could have compassion for the people (who's lives) have driven them to the point of breaking, entering and adding all this bad karma to their lives.

    -bf
  • edited October 2005
    Dawn In my opinion you did the right thing. By not saying anything. When my son was 2 someone tried to break into my house while we were home. It was a very tramatic experience. The police said we were lucky that I had locked all the doors for the night as this person really had the intention of harming us.( We had to leave for the night because he kept coming back and trying to get in.) They never caught him. Figured he proably lived in the neighborhood.
    But it wasn't merely the fact that if he had gotten in that later upset me, It was the fact that without really thinking I was so willing to take another Human life. ( Yes, I was going to make sure he didn't leave if he got in. Believe me!) My cousin whose house we spent the night at, was really supportive, all he did was just listen. We movedinto my cousins for a while and never spent another night in that house.
  • edited October 2005
    So in terms of right view are we saying that it's important to see others as thinking/feeling humans with the same desires as us and not vilify them as evil demons (difficult as this may be)?
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    twobitbob wrote:
    So in terms of right view are we saying that it's important to see others as thinking/feeling humans with the same desires as us and not vilify them as evil demons (difficult as this may be)?

    Right View is only one aspect of the path. Simply seeing our reaction to events will not necessarily alter our behaviour or, even, beliefs. But it is an important part of the job.

    To alter a view of others as demonic, evil enemies is not simple. The various liberation movements give us example: we are reminded, just now, of the heroism of Rosa Parkes, at her passing. After 50 years, we are still struggling with changing uncompassionate views of skin colour.

    In fact, of course, such an alteration of attitude needs more that Right View, it requires all the rest of the components.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    Well, during these past two or three difficult days, I have attempted to implement 'Right Everything', and Right View especially, given that it's this week's 'Spoke of the Wheel'....
    I cleared my Mind of all distracting extraneous thoughts, as I walked into Chambers, and had The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha foremost in my mind, as I sat down. I tried to not let my emotions cloud the issue, but just to "see things as they really were".....
    I am utterly convinced that my ability to conduct myself in the way I did was due in no small part to my Frame of Mind and my Right Intention...... In the great Big Scheme of things, this matter was as a grain of sand on a beach. immaterial, inconsequential - but part of the beach, nevertheless. I kept my focus on the factual and honest. I let them see me as serious, organised and practical.
    I did my best. I went over in my mind the things I had thought, said and done, and felt at the end of the day, that there was no cause for self -reproach.
    I am not gloating. I'm merely relating matters as they occurred within the frame of what I believe.

    How was YOUR "Right View" this week? :)
  • edited October 2005
    federica
    count me in . just yesterday i was driving in new jersey and reflecting on what i had read the night before in the latest book that i am reading "In the BUddha's Words- an anthology of discourses from the Pali Canon" and came to the conclusion that i needed to be redirected to "the Path" . the pleasant feeling that i felt from just a small inner moment
    of "understanding" fueled me for the rest of the day.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Today I saw a hornbeam tree, its roots pushing down into the earth and around the stones of a wall. Its branches sloped upwards and the twigs were angled down from the pull of gravity. Doves were in the branches, watching the pigeons feed. Around its roots, no grass grew but the occasional blade or group of blades still managed to find nourishment.

    Today, I saw a tree and learned the universe.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    "To see a world in a grain of sand
    and a heaven in a wild flower,
    hold infinity in the palm of your hand
    and eternity in an hour."

    -William Blake

    Right View then, we might surmise, is not just an instruction, or a signpost we look at. It is there to remind us also that perfection is attainable, if we would only stop and see it.....
    There is so much wonder and astounding Purity in the veins of a leaf, in a blade of grass, that if we clear our Mind and see, think and feel nothing but this small transitory object for just a few moments, we have seen all that we have ever needed, all that we need and all that we ever shall need to see.
    It might also be worth mentioning that two seemingly identical objects are never alike.... Check out the snowflakes this winter..... Go out on a frosty clear day, with a magnifying lens and observe the perfection of Effortlessness......

    Thanks, Simon and JerseyJoe.... ;)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    [This sunday marks the 'end' of the first Spoke of the Wheel, and we move on to the second: Right Intention. It goes without saying that we're not replacing step #1 with step #2: rather, we're going to continue practising the former, whilst incorporating the latter. These first two steps are categorised as 'Wisdom training' and they help us to develop a right Mental Attitude to our lives. But they're not exclusive. They work melded and intertwined, both with each other, and with the remaining six 'Spokes' on the Eightfold Path..... So feel free to be specific on this week's topic, but not hesitate to include the others where relevant (and they always will be....!) :)

    This then, is purely what I perceive Right Intention to partially be....


    'The thought manifests as word;
    The word manifests as deed;
    The deed develops into habit;
    And habit hardens the character;
    So watch the thought and its ways with care,
    And let it spring from love
    Born out of concern for all beings.....
    As the shadow follows the body,
    As we think, so we become.'

    FROM THE DHAMMAPADA.
    Lama Surya Das , "Awakening the Buddha Within."


    This chapter also contains a quotation I have used before:
    'It all starts in your head, with what you tell yourself.'

    Right Intention then, to me, is not only making sound decisions based on what we know and believe the Buddha taught; it is also engraving indellibly into our Mind, the Right Intention to be true to ourselves. Because if we orchestrate any Thought, Word and Deed with a flawed and untrue foundation, everything that follows will also be distorted.
    The first question we should be asking ourselves then, before following through with anything we Think, Say or Do, is "Why? What is my Motivation?" Right Intention, for me then, is making sure that the Method, Result and Conclusion all fall into place, supported by Wisdom and Compassion.

    There is so much to discuss and include....
    How do we the Perceive Right Intention for ourselves, and how are we going to Implement this Wisdom into our everyday lives this week?
  • edited October 2005
    Is right intent something that we must train our minds to do, or is it something acheived when the spontaneity of the mind is freed?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    For my part, as it is a section of the Instructive Eightfold Path it is something we must learn to do. However, we all develop a sense of 'Right' and 'Wrong' as we grow and develop. The Eightfold Path is a gentle reminder to implement the Eight more fully, and more consciously, into our everyday lives.
    When sponataneity is achieved, there is no 'Right' anything to do, because you would be all that is Right..... IMHO, anyway......
    This is one of the reasons I thought I would start this thread. to walk and to learn together, just what each aspect of the Eightfold Path does....
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Another week has almost gone by.... Are there any more contributions to this week's topic of 'Right Intention? :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Here we are and ready to discuss the Third Spoke of the Wheel, perhaps one of the most difficult to adhere to.

    Two things spring to my mind: one was a section of a programme I was watching some time ago, on the Society of Zoroastrians, in which two women were discussing the main Motto or Precept of this particular society, "Think Good Thoughts, Say Good Words, Do Good Deeds". They were trying to decide which of the three it is most difficult to adhere to, and they concluded that they were in the correct order, for difficulty. I would tend to agree.

    The second thing which springs to mind, is the Chinese saying which goes something like:
    "Even the Emperor's swiftest horse-borne Army cannot retrieve the Word once spoken".

    So this week then, is a period in which you might like to consider the value of Speech, the power of the spoken (and written!) word, and when, on occasions, it might be the most powerful and wisest thing to say nothing at all..... ?
    With the incorporation and influence of the first two.....

    .....I Look forward to everyone's contribution. :)
  • edited November 2005
    Does right speech not come from right intention with skillful application?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Absolutely! Good on you, Twobitbob, the Eight are inseparable, as I pointed out. You can consider each portion of the Eightfold Path in isolation, through discussion or contemplation, as we are doing here. But they are not separate one from the other.... and their comparison to a wheel is a pertinent one. Remove a spoke - any spoke - and the wheel is weakened.
    From purely and simply my point of view, (and as I have pointed out before, I'm a simple person - !!) The hub of the Wheel is the Buddha himself. The spokes are the Eightfold path, the Dharma which radiates out to connect and to strengthen. The outer portion of the wheel is the Sangha, the ties that bind, the connection of everything to everything, that encompasses our Whole. The point, indeed, where 'The Rubber hits the Road'.....!
    So while we consider each section of the Wheel, we know that they inter-relate, inter-connect and inter-act.
    I have often said that it all begins in your head, with what you tell yourself. And as Elohim has indicated elsewhere, the Eightfold Path both begins and ends with Wisdom. #1, Right View, and #8, Right Meditation/Concentration. But in essence, there is no beginning, and there is no end.... it's all together, all supporting.

    Thank you for coming in.

    Hope this helps. As I have said, I am in no way shape or form putting myself forward as either an authority or an expert on this subject. But I guess as I kicked it off......!! :)
  • edited November 2005
    Sorry to backtrack, but i want (that's probably the problem) to talk about right intention again.

    What constitutes right intention? Or 'right' in any of the steps of the path. Most of what we consider right or wrong is socially defined and imposed, e.g if i tried it on with a 12 year old girl i'd be done for paedophilia, but the same thing a few centuries ago was perfectly normal.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Every society has a moral code, but societies being what they are, (and being further influenced by tradition, culture and religion) they will doubtless differ enormously. So I can see what you mean by 'what went then won't go now'.....
    However, it's fair to point out that there are many cultural differences in evidence even today which occasionally raise an eyebrow....
    But Buddhism is a philosophy that can bridge any gap and cover every base. Why? because it demands that you yourself - based on every aspect and angle of your life - seek to answer the questions, for yourself.
    Due to your upbringing, your religious and cultural influences, and that which you have learnt living the life you have led, you will be able to arrive to certain conclusions about 'Rights' and 'Wrongs' relying heavily on how you have lived so far. The Eightfold Path helps to define your boundaries more acutely, and refines the restrictions you put upon yourself to a sharper level.
    And they would apply whatever your upbringing, whatever your situation, wherever you live.
    If for example, as a member of an amazonian tribe, you are betrothed to a girl barely in her teens, because it is the social and culturally accepted thing, you would implement the Eightfold Path to treat her in a way that would be both Noble and Honourable. The Eightfold path then, is something one can adapt to any lifestyle and means of living, fitting in closely with the Social and Cultural 'rules and regulations' you already live by. The Eightfold Path is both flexible in it's application, and rigid in its advice.....
    Do you see what I mean? Does this help?
  • JerbearJerbear Veteran
    edited November 2005
    First of all, from my limited understanding, "right" isn't seen in a right/wrong mode, it is more in a skillful way, then a way that would bring harm. Right so far, Fede?

    Right Speech is very tough for me. Growing up in a lower middle class blue collar neighborhood, I learned an array of ways to speak that most people would find vulgar. I had someone point out to me that I had the foulest mouth of anyone they knew a few months back, and in the beginning I just watched what I said. Now this person swore alot too, but we were talking about me. Even at home now, I'm really trying to see where my speech is helpful or hurtful. Because even when I'm not being vulgar, I can be blunt. And we all know that isn't skillful.

    This isn't just about profanity. It seems to me about saying the thing that is the most helpful at that time. I have quite a balancing act as a nurse, trying to say enough to comfort patients and their families, not saying what the doctor should or what he would want them to know (yes, doctors do keep some information from you at certain points as a judgement call), and keeping my own integrity. I work in critical care, and sometimes the doctors tell families things when the nurses know otherwise just from years of experience.

    Just my initial thoughts on the topic.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Sometimes bluntness is the best way to state truth or to get your point across. Cutting into an infected wound to get rid of the infection is often times painful, but in the end is the best thing for a person.

    I'm not opposed to profanity because sometimes, profane words get the point across in a given situation. But, to just use profanity because you can, sometimes makes you seem.... how should I say... less intelligent?

    Everything in it's place and time.

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Jerbear wrote:
    First of all, from my limited understanding, "right" isn't seen in a right/wrong mode, it is more in a skillful way, then a way that would bring harm. Right so far, Fede?.....
    Right Speech is very tough for me. Growing up in a lower middle class blue collar neighborhood, I learned an array of ways to speak that most people would find vulgar. I had someone point out to me that I had the foulest mouth of anyone they knew a few months back, and in the beginning I just watched what I said. Now this person swore alot too, but we were talking about me. Even at home now, I'm really trying to see where my speech is helpful or hurtful. Because even when I'm not being vulgar, I can be blunt. And we all know that isn't skillful.

    This isn't just about profanity. It seems to me about saying the thing that is the most helpful at that time. .....
    Just my initial thoughts on the topic.

    Yes Jerbear, I would agree that in the context of the Eightfold path, 'Right' is seen as skillful and appropriate....

    My personal take on this -and I'm also taking BF's comments above - is that it's not only the words, but the moment.... it's not only the vocabulary, but the tone....
    It is said, in realms of psychology counselling and NLP, that with regard to communication, three aspects need to be taken into account: Body Language, Intonation and Vocabulary. Curiously, they are manifested by decreasing percentage, in that order.....Body language is at least 57% of the discussion, verbal intonation, 26% and only 17% actual vocabulary....
    Skillful or Right Speech, for my part and in my own opinion, is not just about what we say to someone. It's how we say it, and the vocabulary too. I personally detest to hear anyone swearing at me. I hate the use of foul language in an argument - to me it seems as if the person is losing control of their own POV. I absolutely take on board what you say about Emphasis, BF, I can even think of times when (Gasp!! Shock, horror!) I have used the occasional expletive deleted to push my point home. But I also feel that to listen to someone being abusive is a form of assault. In fact, the offense of 'Verbal assault' exists in the UK.....
    Right Speech, for me then, is "simply" watching your Mouth - all of the time, but first watching your Body Language and how you intend to say what you feel you want to say.
    Come on you guys... admit it - it's sooo easy.....!!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited November 2005
    That is interesting, Fede.

    Verbal Assault is a form of assault in the UK.

    I find that, myself personally, quite childish. I believe a person should be able to say what they want to say - no matter how good or how bad. And if someone is going to call me a name and I'm going to break down and get upset?

    IMHO - I need to grow up.

    Now, on the other hand - I agree with you regarding the part about using profanity in a argument - like with a loved one. I mean, if you want to use profanity - then by all means, you'd better be ready to stand beside it. If referring to your partner in a derogatory fashion is what you mean - then that's fine. Just don't start whining later when you're called on the carpet about your comments and then start trying to worm your way out of them.

    I say this because I remember one time I was having an argument with a significant other. They informed me in this conversation that they hated me. It hurt, but I could respect what they said. At basically, at that moment, I decided that if they hated me - our relationship was over.
    But a couple of days later when I was planning on moving out, they were very upset at how I could run away from the relationship.

    "But, you said you hated me."
    "I didn't mean that - I love you."
    "Oh... so some things you say you mean and other things you say - you don't. Well, I'm not going to try to figure out which things you mean and which ones you don't."

    And that was basically that.

    I've been in argument that became very heated and I don't believe I have ever said anything that I didn't mean or wasn't willing to stand by at a later date. I watch the words that come out of my mouth.

    There is an old saying about keeping the words that come out of your mouth short and sweet because some day you may have to eat them.

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2005
    buddhafoot wrote:
    That is interesting, Fede.

    Verbal Assault is a form of assault in the UK.

    I find that, myself personally, quite childish. I believe a person should be able to say what they want to say - no matter how good or how bad. And if someone is going to call me a name and I'm going to break down and get upset?

    IMHO - I need to grow up.

    Now, on the other hand - I agree with you regarding the part about using profanity in a argument - like with a loved one. I mean, if you want to use profanity - then by all means, you'd better be ready to stand beside it. If referring to your partner in a derogatory fashion is what you mean - then that's fine. Just don't start whining later when you're called on the carpet about your comments and then start trying to worm your way out of them.

    I say this because I remember one time I was having an argument with a significant other. They informed me in this conversation that they hated me. It hurt, but I could respect what they said. At basically, at that moment, I decided that if they hated me - our relationship was over.
    But a couple of days later when I was planning on moving out, they were very upset at how I could run away from the relationship.

    "But, you said you hated me."
    "I didn't mean that - I love you."
    "Oh... so some things you say you mean and other things you say - you don't. Well, I'm not going to try to figure out which things you mean and which ones you don't."

    And that was basically that.

    I've been in argument that became very heated and I don't believe I have ever said anything that I didn't mean or wasn't willing to stand by at a later date. I watch the words that come out of my mouth.

    There is an old saying about keeping the words that come out of your mouth short and sweet because some day you may have to eat them.

    -bf

    A couple of things, BF,

    First of all, the question of 'free speech'. As you may know, it is unlawful in a number of countries to deny the reality and scope of the Holocaust, whilst those same countries protect freedom of speech in other areas. Many countries are trying to make 'glorifying' or 'promoting' terrorism a crime. Spech is not free. We put limits on it for all sorts of good reasons.

    Secondly, there is your conversation with an SO. The real lesson is that words, once spoken, cannot be recalled. To say "I didn't mean it" is to demonstrate how closely Right Spech is linked to Right Intention!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited November 2005
    A couple of things, BF,

    First of all, the question of 'free speech'. As you may know, it is unlawful in a number of countries to deny the reality and scope of the Holocaust, whilst those same countries protect freedom of speech in other areas. Many countries are trying to make 'glorifying' or 'promoting' terrorism a crime. Spech is not free. We put limits on it for all sorts of good reasons.

    Secondly, there is your conversation with an SO. The real lesson is that words, once spoken, cannot be recalled. To say "I didn't mean it" is to demonstrate how closely Right Spech is linked to Right Intention!

    I understand what you are saying, Simon. I can even see where you are coming from.

    Victims of the holocaust - and other things like that - probably don't want to hear some Neo-Nazi punk saying what a wonderful person Hilter was. But, in my opinion, we shouldn't take that right away. We should also protect the right of a person telling this Neo-Nazi punk that the "best of you must have soaked into the sheets..."

    But, then, if it were a perfect world - we would have never had a Holocaust and parents would (and would raise their children in a way to) respect others.

    I'm not saying that a law against Verbal Assault should not be. It's just my opinion that it's childish and people should be able to take a little name calling.

    Now... maybe some day when I'm on the business end of an assault like this? Maybe I'll change my mind because at this point, I really don't have any concept of what I'm talking about.

    And I acknowledge that. I can only speak to how I feel at this moment with the sum of my experiences that make "me" me.

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    And I guess that's what "Living in the Now" is all about... we are constantly urged, in one way or another, to Live in the Present Moment, because in Truth, that is all that exists. But that's one recommendation that is so difficult to adhere to.... memories of old arguments, rehearsals of future discussions.... don't we all do that? BF referred to an argument he had some time ago when his SO said some hurtful things. Oh, don't we all cling to the hurt? Like grasping the blade of a sharp knife and instead of releasing it as it cuts us, actually gripping it harder....
    I suppose then, being Mindful also means being 'Here' and not letting our mind wander, not let it fantasise or daydream over things which ultimately are suffering and illusory.....
    So Right Speech is tied in with Right Intention is tied in with Right View is tied in with Right.... Everything. But Here. And Now.
    Thanks everyone, for coming in and continuing the discussion. :) Always interesting and of value to me, to get your feedback!
  • edited November 2005
    I enjoyed reading the posts in this thread on the Eightfold path. I have some comments based on my experience.
    My first Dharma talk on Right View looked at this first step on the path from the perspective of what inspired you to take up a spiritual journey. You could think of it as a Perfect Vision which gives you the inspiration and strength to follow the other aspets of the path. I was asked to think of a defining moment in my life when I experienced something visionary. At first I found it difficult to think that an ordinary person like me could be visionary. Then after a few moments I remembered an experience from my chidhood when I was looking round a huge cathedral in Valletta in Malta and happened upon a huge painting called he Beheading of John the Baptist by Caravaggio - I was transfixed and found myself overwhelmed by the brutality of the moment and the sadness of seeing such a strong figure like John humiliated and powerless. I think my Right View is the backbone of my practice and is a combination of many moments such as this one. It sounds grand but I think I am not special in this respect and everyone has moments like this on which to draw inspiration from.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Twobitbob, all,

    In the context of the Buddha's Path, 'Right' simply means, "This will lead you to the cessation of suffering."

    In truth, morality (sila) is a very important component to the Path laid out by the Buddha. By following this Path we are freed from suffering because this Path leads one to experience Nibbana. That is what makes it 'Right'. The morality that was taught by the Buddha was done so because it leaves a foundation for concentration (samadhi) to be developed. This concentration calms the mind of disturbances and defilements long enough for discernment (panna) to arise and/or be cultivated.

    I agree with Jerry's summary, "'Right' isn't seen in a right/wrong mode, it is more in a skillful way, then a way that would bring harm."

    :)

    Jason
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    buddhafoot wrote:
    that the "best of you must have soaked into the sheets..."
    But, then, if it were a perfect world - parents would (and would raise their children in a way to) respect others.

    I'm not saying that a law against Verbal Assault should not be. It's just my opinion that it's childish and people should be able to take a little name calling.

    Now... maybe some day when I'm on the business end of an assault like this? Maybe I'll change my mind because at this point, I really don't have any concept of what I'm talking about.

    -bf

    First of all, that quotation about the sheets.... I hope never to be in a situation where I am so 'unguarded' that I would say that to anyone.....(she said, self-righteously..... because.....)
    Secondly, there are times that I sincerely wish I wasn't so "Buddhist", because I would LOOOOVE to have the opportunity to say that to someone - !!


    I know that we also have the Right to 'Free Speech' in the UK. But the Law is there to be used in the situation where someone is so outrageous, foul-mouthed and offensive, that either a citizen or an Officer or the Law "deems it appropriate to apprehend the offender in order to vouchsafe his or her safety and the safety and well-being of other citizens." In other words, the offender would have to be causing a public nuisance and really overstepping the line. Most times people are just cautioned or allowed space to cool down. If anyone ever gets charged with Verbal Assault, it is usually in addition to another offence, like physical assault, or grievious Bodily harm....so the offence would already have to be quite serious.
    Like, for example, a drunken parent turning up at a school and crashing into a class to abuse the teacher, with a verbal onslaught Troopers would blush at.... (Happened at the school I was Governor at.) The parent in question was initially charged with a number of offenses, but all were dropped after a caution, and they were 'Bound Over to Keep the Peace.' The incident was extremely upsetting to both teacher and pupils - all of whom ranged between 8 - 9 years. That would be a good example.

    BTW, Thank you Dharma Bum for your post. I too, off the top of my head, can't think of any one specific defining moment, but I think, as you do, that if I stop and cast my Mind back, I would also conjure up a moment of my past when something clicked and shone.....I shall ponder on it..... ;)
  • JerbearJerbear Veteran
    edited November 2005
    Jason,
    Thank you! Coming from you, that is an extreme compliment. Even though sometimes I don't understand all of your posts, I do my best to read them since they are always enlightening.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2005
    Thank you so much everyone for contributions thus far....
    Today marks the Turning of the Wheel to discuss the next 'Spoke of the Wheel'....
    Right Action.
    I often refer to things we Think, Say and Do, which echoes the order in which we've discussed the EightFold Path so far. They are preceded by Right View, which denotes that you have to already be in the 'RIGHT' frame of Mind in order to first Think, then Say and follow through with Do what is Right, in your appraisal of the situation, at the time.....
    So this week, as always with the influence of that which we have discussed until now, we focus on Doing what's Right - on Right Action, which would include Walking the Talk, and putting our money where our Mouth is.
    A Favourite couple of Quotations to illustrate something I personally believe:

    "There can be no Happiness, no Serenity no Peace in our hearts, if the things we believe in are different from the things we do."

    and:

    'Trying' isn’t 'Doing'.

    Looking forward to your opinions on the Spoke, and to your experiences this week.....! ;)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2005
    "By their fruits shall you know them."
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