How to satisfy the conflicting requirements of work life and Dhamma practice?

muditaa · November 2010

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[FONT=&quot]Nice to find this forum. I'm a new buddhist practicing alone in the US. I'm facing a difficult situation as outlined in the title, and would appreciate your kind advice.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I suppose many other fellow practitioners might face the same difficulties as I do. As the practice gets to higher level, the conflicting requirements of work life and Dhamma practice are becoming more and more difficult to satisfy:
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[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Seclusion vs. socialization:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] my job requires me to socialize with the colleagues by chatting with them often, participating in their various parties/gatherings from time to time and etc., which makes a secluded livelihood and abstaining from idle chatters impossible.
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[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Noble silence vs. active communication:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] during the work meetings I’ve been trying to speak only when it’s true, beneficial and timely, and keep noble silence to avoid pointless and inappropriate speech; however, it has somehow become the most serious “shortcoming” of mine in the eyes of my colleagues, who demanded me to talk and communicate much more (the US philosophy is more “let your voice be heard” instead of “silence is gold”).
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[FONT=&quot]3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Life of simplicity with few duties (for dhamma practice) vs. active involvement in various duties/activities (demanded by the job)
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[FONT=&quot]4) [/FONT][FONT=&quot] P[/FONT][FONT=&quot]erception of distaste for the world of all vs. interest and enthusiasm in work: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]how can we maintain some adequate amount of interest and enthusiasm in our work while developing the perception of distaste for the world of all? If one has lost such interest and enthusiasm and is only interested in the Dhamma practice, should s/he continue to work?
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[FONT=&quot]5) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Associate with the wise people of integrity vs. have to work with some fault-picking, trouble-making worldling(s) lacking of integrity[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I’ve been practicing dhamma for only half a year, and have already been regarded as someone different. I wonder how the other practitioners with much longer practicing experiences handle such conflicting requirements. Your kind help is much needed and appreciated.
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[FONT=&quot]With metta[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Muditaa[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]PS: I searched this topic on internet but didn’t find a relevant article or thread; the writings related to dhamma practice in daily work life are very limited and I hope there’ll be more such discussions considering the large number of lay practitioners. [/FONT]<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="if(typeof(jsCall)=='function'){jsCall();}else{setTimeout('jsCall()',500);}" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Nirvana · November 2010

muditaa: Perhaps no one has yet responded to your post d/t too much encryption or whatever in it. Below all may PLEASE FIND a cleaned-up format:

1) Seclusion vs. socialization: My job requires me to socialize with the colleagues by chatting with them often, participating in their various parties/gatherings from time to time and etc., which makes a secluded livelihood and abstaining from idle chatters impossible.

2) Noble silence vs. active communication: During the work meetings I’ve been trying to speak only when it’s true, beneficial and timely, and keep noble silence to avoid pointless and inappropriate speech; however, it has somehow become the most serious “shortcoming” of mine in the eyes of my colleagues, who demanded me to talk and communicate much more (the US philosophy is more “let your voice be heard” instead of “silence is gold”).

3) Life of simplicity with few duties (for dhamma practice) vs. active involvement in various duties/activities (demanded by the job)

4)Perception of distaste for the world of all vs. interest and enthusiasm in work:How can we maintain some adequate amount of interest and enthusiasm in our work while developing the perception of distaste for the world of all? If one has lost such interest and enthusiasm and is only interested in the Dhamma practice, should s/he continue to work?

5) Associate with the wise people of integrity vs. have to work with some fault-picking, trouble-making worldling(s) lacking of integrity
I’ve been practicing dhamma for only half a year, and have already been regarded as someone different. I wonder how the other practitioners with much longer practicing experiences handle such conflicting requirements. Your kind help is much needed and appreciated.

patbb · November 2010

5 minutes concentration meditation (breath or one object) every hours.

will keep you mindful throughout the entire day.

try it if you can, or some variation of it, and you will make incredible progress in no times!

Nirvana · November 2010

1) Seclusion vs. socialization: My job requires me to socialize with the colleagues by chatting with them often, participating in their various parties/gatherings from time to time and etc., which makes a secluded livelihood and abstaining from idle chatters impossible. Why would you want a secluded livelihood, muditaa? The true test of our resolve is to be out there in the world, susceptible to the blows of misfortune and the intermingling of ourselves with others. Idle chatter occurs when we go on about ourselves and things that really don't touch upon the lives of others. I think that listening to others is a real ministry, because people need to express themselves. Below I’ve quoted from a talk by Ajahn Chandako which has recently been transcribed to a thread here:

pegembara wrote: »

Compassion is peace; because tuning into the pain of another living being and responding with understanding and love is one of the greatest of human abilities...

How would that Compassion/Peace be possible without availing ourselves to others?

2) Noble silence vs. active communication: During the work meetings I’ve been trying to speak only when it’s true, beneficial and timely, and keep noble silence to avoid pointless and inappropriate speech; however, it has somehow become the most serious “shortcoming” of mine in the eyes of my colleagues, who demanded me to talk and communicate much more (the US philosophy is more “let your voice be heard” instead of “silence is gold”). A sense of humor can surely come in handy. People simply want to be assured of your goodwill. It is certainly not the case that anyone loves somebody who has an opinion on everything and seems incapable of listening due to his garrulousness and loquacity.
One way I know to be able to add a few words of humor is simply not to take oneself too seriously and be yourself. Don’t worry about forcing words, but please don’t feel that it is “unBuddhist” to do so.

3) Life of simplicity with few duties (for dhamma practice) vs. active involvement in various duties/activities (demanded by the job) We do what we have to do and accept that. We cannot rush our practice, and resentment of our duties will not help us in our spiritual quests, either.

4)Perception of distaste for the world of all vs. interest and enthusiasm in work: How can we maintain some adequate amount of interest and enthusiasm in our work while developing the perception of distaste for the world of all? If one has lost such interest and enthusiasm and is only interested in the Dhamma practice, should s/he continue to work? I don’t think that following the Buddhist path is anything like the either-or proposition you have outlined. As Sri Ramakrishna once said, it’s OK for the boat to be in the water, but that you ought not to let the water enter the boat. The world itself may indeed be a naughty and distracting place, but that is where we have to work out our salvation. We do not exist in ourselves, of ourselves, and for ourselves —we live in the world and it is in it that we are to find the means to lift ourselves up from its trifling ways and into the light.

5) Associate with the wise people of integrity vs. have to work with some fault-picking, trouble-making worldling(s) lacking of integrity
I’ve been practicing dhamma for only half a year, and have already been regarded as someone different. I wonder how the other practitioners with much longer practicing experiences handle such conflicting requirements. Your kind help is much needed and appreciated. As quoted above, compassion is peace. Associate with the wise and holy wherever you find them —especially in holy books. Have patience with those ignorant or heedless of higher truth and resent them not. Try to see everyone as your brother or sister and feel love and awe. People are both intrinsically interesting and intrinsically different “selves.” Who is anyone to judge someone by sheer accident of his behavior? Sometimes one does have to decide that it is necessary to stay away from some for this reason or that, but still —we ought not to judge.

DaltheJigsaw · November 2010

Great thread!

genkaku · December 2010

My take: Assuming there is some inclination, there is considerable excitement and delight when discovering something called Buddhism. The tendency may be to hold on tight and really put out a lot of mental or physical energy. It's sort of like being 16 and "in love." There are all sorts of efforts to make better that which has been worse ... not so much talk, not so much socializing, not so much drinking, not so much mindless involvement, etc.

But the discipline of Buddhism is a little like signing on the bottom line for a new car: Yes, it's shiny and new and just what you want your neighbors to envy, but then there is the fine print -- you've got to pay for it, you have to deal with the flats and worn-out brakes just as you did for your previous old clunker, and someone is bound to put a dent in this beauty while you're shopping at WalMart.

My mother once said, "Don't get too holy by next Thursday." It was and remains good advice. Patience, courage and doubt are essential. Will you goof? Of course you will ... another perfectly reasonable name for Buddhism is Mistakes R Us.

But what clears up problems that may sting and swarm like bees is an actual-factual, sit-down-straighten-the-spine-shut-up-and-focus-the-mind practice. Constancy defeats all the holy difficulties ... day after day, week after week, year after year.

Just noodling.

Floating_Abu · December 2010

I told my friend today how the first time I tried mindfulness I was lucky I didn't crash my car, so mechanical was I. Practice makes perfect, only joking (ha ha), practice can bring a little bit of .. understanding and naturalness maybe.

Dazzle · December 2010

Hi muditaa,

We all have to adapt to the workplace and try to make everything in our busy lives our practice. This includes showing kindness and understanding towards others.

Its good to fit in a short meditation session morning and evening if possible - and don't take everything too seriously,relax a little, you don't have to cut yourself off from the rest of the world!

With kind wishes,

Dazzle

DaltheJigsaw · December 2010

I want to keep this thread going!
It's really helpful!

dharma · December 2010

Hi Muditaa,

Muditaa: " 1) Seclusion and Life of simplicity with few duties vs. socialization

Perhaps setting aside time for personal retreat or meditation after work, such as one day a week. And set aside time to incorporate meditation into daily life, for example, 30 mins. after breakfast, 30 mins. after lunch, and 30 mins. before dinner. Together, it only takes about 1.5 hours of the day. If you don't have 1.5 hours to spare, maybe instead of spending 3 hours on TV and 2 hours surfing the net just watch TV only 2 hours and reduce internet surfing to 1.5 hours, that way you have some time for meditation practice in daily life. That's just an example of finding time for practice in daily life.

When it comes to conditions of worldly progress/ welfare and happiness in this life for householders, the Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja) Sutta ( AN 8.54) mentioned :

"Four conditions, Vyagghapajja, conduce to a householder's happiness and well-being in this very life. Which four?

The accomplishment of :

1. Initiative / persistent effort (utthana-sampada)

2. Attentiveness / watchfulness (arakkha-sampada)

3. Good friendship (kalyanamittata)

4. Balanced livelihood (sama-jivikata)

"What is good friendship? "Herein, Vyagghapajja, in whatever village or town a householder may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, full of faith (saddha, confidence based on knowledge), full of virtue (sila), full of generosity (caga), full of wisdom (pañña). He talks with them, engages in discussions. He acts in accordance with the faith of the faithful, with the virtue of the virtuous, with the charity of the charitable, with the wisdom of the wise. This is called good friendship."

Muditaa: "2) Noble silence vs. active communication: during the work meetings I’ve been trying to speak only when it’s true, beneficial and timely, and keep noble silence to avoid pointless and inappropriate speech; however, it has somehow become the most serious “shortcoming” of mine in the eyes of my colleagues, who demanded me to talk and communicate much more (the US philosophy is more “let your voice be heard” instead of “silence is gold”)."

I would say that "Noble-silence" is for when you are on a meditation retreat. It is conducive to good meditation because that way when you meditate the thoughts about what so and and so said along with the emotions that it generated doesn't arise to disturb your meditation.

But in daily life outside of retreat I would say cultivating " Wholesome Speech" rather than " Noble Silence".

When it comes to conditions for unity, gladness, and friendship the buddha suggests:

"The bhikkhu should be established in verbal actions of loving kindness towards co-associates in the holy life openly and secretly."

"Right speech- Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I am committed to learn to speak truthfully, with words that inspire confidence, joy and hope. I am committed to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to relieve others of their suffering. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to criticize or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small."

Muditaa: 4) Perception of distaste for the world of all vs. interest and enthusiasm in work: how can we maintain some adequate amount of interest and enthusiasm in our work while developing the perception of distaste for the world of all? If one has lost such interest and enthusiasm and is only interested in the Dhamma practice, should s/he continue to work?

Right Livelihood: Prosperity as an Outlet For Generosity and Compassion

The Buddha does not discourages his lay disciples from pursuing prosperity. Whether the pursuit of prosperity is wholesome or unwholesome depends on a person's motive for pursuing prosperity , the actions taken for achieving prosperity, and how the person uses his/ her wealth.

1. Motive for pursuing : Compassion and Generosity as Opposed to Greed and Self-Serving Desires
Whenever a desire arises, there is also a feeling of discontentment or restlessness that accompanies it. The way that many people approach the vague sense of discontentment in life is by trying to fulfill desires. It is true that you get a temporary relief from discontentment by this method, but before you know it another desire arises along with the sense of discontentment. And again, you need to do something to appease the discontentment. This traps you in a vicious cycle instead of providing a permanent solution. That is the reason that whatever you may acquire in life, there is vague under current of discontentment that never leave for good. And happiness is always just around the corner. Aside from food, clothing, and shelter, the body doesn't requires that much more . But the mind cannot be made to feel satisfied or fulfilled by any amount of material forms or objects, because it is more like an energy frequency than a tangible form. It requires energy that come from stillness rather than things. Therefore, it is not a good idea to pursue wealth out of greed and desires. Rather one should obtain wealth as a means for some wholesome purpose, such as for practicing generosity and bringing our compassion into action.

2. How One Acquires Prosperity: Like a Bee Collecting Honey Without Harming the Flowers

Wealth should be acquired through just means. The person engaged in profit-making should not deceive or harm customers or any others in the process. Aside from cultivating prosperity, one's livelihood should be a means for providing service to other people in society. Therefore, a livelihood that brings harm to people, animals, or nature, defeats this purpose.

When the actions taken for achieving prosperity is also a means to contribute to other people in society, it not only benefit oneself, but the society that we live in as well.

3. Ways of Using Prosperity : Wealth Like a Rainfall That Nourishes Life

Prosperity should never be an end in itself, but merely a means to some wholesome purpose. For example, to benefit oneself, parents, family, employees, the needy, and to support monastics who have dedicated their lives to self-purification and realization of enlightenment ( Angutarra Nikaya V). The use of wealth in this balanced way would be meaningful to oneself, to those one lives with, and broadly speaking, to the whole of society. In the Parabhava Sutta, the Buddha emphasized that one's own wealth is not merely for oneself or family only. He disapproved of a wealthy person's disregard for society. Also, he admired a layperson who " acquires immense wealth but is not intoxicated by it" ( Samyutta Nikaya I).

When a person's action in cultivating prosperity contributes to other people and the motivation is based on compassion and generosity, just the action alone is beneficial to society. And the resulted prosperity is beneficial to oneself and loved ones when it is properly use. In this way , the cultivation of prosperity is encouraged by the Buddha .

According to the texts, the Buddha had many well to do lay disciples. He did not discouraged them from cultivating prosperity . However, for disciples who wanted enter the holy life of awakening as bhikkhus / bhikkhunis are not allowed to handle money or possess all sorts of things that are not necessary.

ravkes · December 2010

Your work is your Dharma practice.

1) You can still socialize, but remember no chatter is idle. If what you're saying is easing the suffering of the other person -- say telling a joke, complimenting them or just engaging in chatter that they find to be pleasing you're helping them along.

2) If they can't understand that you're just trying to communicate more efficiently in order to expedite the meeting that isn't too intelligent on their part. However if you're just doing it on purpose and not giving input just because you want to stay out of it then that isn't too intelligent on your part. Just use your common sense here, do whatever is best logically to make the most out of the meeting.

3) You need to work to survive. So go work. What does that have to do with anything? Once again, common sense.

4) If you've lost interest in your work the Dharma practice will probably be even more boring. Go meditate and see how long you can last, I can barely last 20 minutes!

And Buddhism doesn't concern itself with perceptions. The Buddha said that perceptions were in fact the cause of suffering. Please see the situation clearly. You go to work, you need the money to survive and provide for the people you care for. How is this not the practice?

5) Dealing with the 'worldings' is your practice. The people who are having trouble are generally those who need your help the most.

I feel as if you've taken Buddhism as a religion, as a belief system to follow. To the contrary Buddhism is merely the act of using one's analytical and logical faculties to help others and themselves to the fullest, by seeing each situation clearly. This can be seen through the meditation practice. That's about it. One can still go to work, have friends and a family.

TheJourney · December 2010

There is no conflict. You are creating the conflict. Bring whatever dharma you have to the workplace. Make it a part of you, rather than a belief which you hold.

Cristina · December 2010

Okay so...you sound a lot like me a few months ago. I had the exact same questions. Now I have depression and am doing a completely awful job at my job because I have no motivation.

The thing to remember is...we're only human. Human beings need social interactions to feel good. We need daily activities to keep us energized and feeling good about ourselves. It's not enough to cut yourself off and expect yourself to "get it" and float on to enlightenment. The journey is a slow one, and for good reason. We're not living at a monastery. Perhaps, if we were, following a monastic way of life would bring happiness and be easier to abide by. But we're living in modern day society, and again, we're only human beings. As much as I want to be a certain way...well what can I say really except it hasn't worked out. At all. And last night I had a thought, "I seem to have filled myself with hot air to avoid having to feel empty." Everything was about the Dharma. But it ended up being mostly hot air...I'm realizing that, once again..., HUMAN. And to see, "the way everyone else is doing it," and think, "well that's not the way I'M going to do it," is more of that hot air. I think we have to embrace our humanness--not cast it aside--in order to be free of it once and for all.

And I'm not saying we NEED these things in the absolute sense. It's just like...well I should have expected to get depression. It's like burning yourself on a hot pan. Sure you can do it, there's nothing essentially wrong with it, but if you expect it not to HURT you've got another thing coming.

So fit the Dharma into your life, not the other way around. Your life will always be the most real/true thing you have going for you. Allow it to take time. This is the best advice I can give right now, from my own recent experiences. I still don't quite know what I'm going to do...the only guiding light for me right now is letting go of more and more control, allowing myself to be the human being that I am, for better or for worse.

Good luck and take care.

DhammaDhatu · January 2011

My tendency is to say: "Find a new job".

Bear in mind the Buddha did incorporate Right Livelihood as a factor of the path. Some jobs are simply 'too busy', too pressured, too much interaction, too many personal feelings of others to consider, not enough autonomy, too many social functions, too many employer or client demands, too many ethical conflicts, etc.

I recall having a job once where my boss forced me to attend a Xmas harbour cruise (after I did not attend the previous three. The law firms my employer used would put on these functions each Xmas).

I found a new job.

Kind regards

Ficus_religiosa · January 2011

It's not a possibility to find a new job "just like that" and just because you're having a difficult time personally. Furthermore an eventual new job will be of the same kind, and therefore the environment and demands will quite probably be the same also..
It is way too drastic to throw everything on the floor every time we experience hardship - "taking problems by the root" is not to be understood as "dig everything up and make a new garden" when a tiger lilly pops up next to the hyacinths.

I think "dharma" gave a very good and sensible answer..

DhammaDhatu · January 2011

The right job will not be of the same kind.

I have had my current job for eight years, since leaving the former.

My current job is fine. I could not imagine returning to the former.

As I suggested, some jobs are simply unsuitable.

All the best

Ficus_religiosa · January 2011

For many people it will have to be, either because of the education one has or because the job one holds gives experience in one area in expense of others - I mean, if you're a landscape gardener for five years you don't just change jobs to greenkeeper, let alone nurse..
Without formal education and with experience in various unskilled jobs it could be a possibility to just change - that situation doesn't hold true for the majority though..

Kundo · January 2011

I'm in a similar position. My current job is unbearable and I am eagerly seeking a new role. However I'm taking a leap here and moving out of I T and into Admin. It will entail a pay cut but I figure ny sanity's worth it. I've also enrolled in a Business Admin diploma so I can climb the rungs to a higher pay sooner than later, but it won't be instantaneous.

I figure saving my sanity will make me a happier person and a better mother. Not a bad thing if I do say so myself.

In metta,
Raven

Dazzle · January 2011

That all sounds very positive, Raven. Lots of good wishes for the future.

Ada_B · January 2011

Blimey, I really hope you haven't got to be quiet and secluded to be a Buddhist! If that were so, I'd be doomed! LOL

You need to find the practice that suits your personality. Me, I'm gregarious and talkative. I have tried so hard to not be what I am. But I'm learning that what I need is to be myself, only better.

muditaa · February 2011

Hello Friends,

Many thanks for your very kind and warm-hearted help. I was too frustrated with some unjust treatment in November last year and forgot to look into my inner heart, my attachments and defilements, before posting this thread. Indeed I should have investigated internally "to the very heart of things:'What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?" [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html], instead of searching solutions to problems externally. Further, we should investigate how to end such sufferings, not by external means, but by looking into our heart.

I used "handle problems" to search Google Suffron, and found the following paragraph of "SIMPLY THIS MOMENT! by Ajahn Brahm:

“People often think that they want to go here or go there, but wherever you go you take ‘you’ with you. You’ll go from one place to another but you will find out that whatever habits and character traits you have here, you’ll still have them somewhere else. Whatever obstacles you find here you’ll find elsewhere. That’s because you have the same defilements. It’s not because of …(the others), it’s because of the way you see … (the others). It’s not the place, it’s the way you see that place. You will take this wherever you go until you can be free from all of that (defilements).”

As Nirvana and Dhamma wisely advised, I've been taking my work life and daily life as part of my dhamma practice, to practice mindfulness and alertness, loving kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, generosity, gratitude, contentment, patience ...

All the best,

Muditaa

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