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Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche
Fenix
Veteran
I am very confused. Buddhism is the way, training your mind the only way to happiness. OK, now someone like Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche who had assumedly attained or whatever, understood the teachings lets say.
Ok, This is not to offend anyone. Now this makes me very confused. He was a controversial teacher.
Does anyone have anymore information about this. He drank and was considered an alcoholic??? Also I quote
Wikipedia
Of course this is out of context and there was alot more in there, but come on?
This makes me doubt everything
Ok, This is not to offend anyone. Now this makes me very confused. He was a controversial teacher.
Does anyone have anymore information about this. He drank and was considered an alcoholic??? Also I quote
Wikipedia
Two former students of Trungpa, John Steinbeck IV and his wife, wrote a sharply critical memoir of their lives with him in which they claim that, in addition to alcohol, Trungpa used $40,000 a year worth of cocaine, and used Seconal to come down from the cocaine. The cocaine use, say the Steinbecks, was kept secret from the wider Vajradhatu community.
Of course this is out of context and there was alot more in there, but come on?
This makes me doubt everything
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Comments
His son stated that if you can't get passed Trungpa's drinking then he is dead (to you). If I recall that correctly.
Many of his students responded positively to his electric way of teaching.
I'll just give you an example and see what you think:
I´ve been listening somewhat to Pema Chodron´s teachings and have found them great (Trungpa´s student) and I find them very good. I am not refuting that.
I cant imagine why he would drink, you know. So that drinking is fine, but if meditation and etc. is so supposed to be the most fulfilling thing, then why not in this case too, especially in a high end teacher as he has supposed to have been
As with all trations and teachings I think we need to take care in not confusing the teacher with the Teachings.
If you look at any of the main faiths you will find people who have continued to struggle to inturnalise the teachings of that faith. Preists and Rabbis commit fraud and sex crimes, entire nations go to war over a book or cartoons put in a newspaper. This does not invalidate the beauty or meanings that are at the core of that faith, it simply shows how much suffering is inherint to the world today.
I think that the best idea is to look at the Techings themselves and see if they offer a way to inprove your life. If the answer to that question is yes, then work to apply them in your life to the best of your ability.
If I hear of a person that is suffering, whether they be a Lama, Rabbi, Iman or lay person, I try to gererate commpassion for that person and hope that one day they will overcome whatever has been put in their path.
I hope this helps and dont get discouraged.
All the Best.
No path is that simple.
Trungpa himself was once asked about this and he said about his drug and alcohol use that he was going through that suffering so that he could add what he learned from that suffering to the body of knowledge (not sure what bank is collecting that either) as a bodhisattva.
Im very unarticulate so stay on this one with me. Ok. I was mayd believe by my own consent of course that buddhism was a path a way to happiness. Trungpa has assumedly attained what has been said to release you, but he chose to drink anyway. See? So the teachings do not liberate you, its all bolony
Was He not fulfilled by the teachings and if not did drinking in particular help him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwWLU6rA9P0
That's what I used to think when I was a lot younger. Now I see that reality is much more complex than that.
Psychologists have studied the tulku phenomenon and the writings of well-known tulkus (HHDL and Trungpa, not sure if there were others who left autobiographical material), and have found that being taken away from your family at 3 or 4 yrs. of age, and placed in an all-male environment without other children to associate with can be traumatic. HHDL came through it pretty well in the end, but Trungpa clearly didn't.
How can I be the judge if that is true of Trungpa? But it may have influenced his decisions as he was following the bodhisattva path. The bodhisattva precepts are more important in the mahayana tradition than the regular (don't know how they call it) precepts. He also was a vajrayana practioner and those precepts (which I am not familiar with) are in turn the most important for the practitioner to hold to.
There is nothing wrong with not liking his drinking, but if that hardens into a tight knot it can cause suffering.
Unless this is not true...
Look at the history of the Teachings in a broader context.
It's true. According to the psychologists' theory, he had unresolved emotional trauma as a child that turned into a sort of personal demon, you might say, in adulthood. I remember reading a book about him years ago (or maybe written by him--too long ago, I don't recall) in which he sometimes referred to his "girlfriends" as "mother". I don't think he ever got over being separated from his mother. So emotional issues presented obstacles for his ability to practice as devotedly as others do. Does that help your understanding?
Trungpa once came to a Zen center I attended. I was looking forward to hearing him talk because I had enjoyed his books so much. But when, seated in the front of the meditation hall with a large glass of clear liquid by his side, he opened his mouth and spoke, I could not understand a word he said. Literally.
Later, at an informal gathering, Trungpa sat with the Zen teacher at a small table at one end of a rectangular room. Again, the tall glass of clear liquid was before him. Students from both schools kneeled at low tables and talked Buddhist shop while sipping tea.
As time went by, the thought occurred to me that I would never again see Trungpa and I wanted to get closer to him. So I thought up some off-the-shelf Buddhist question and approached the table where he was sitting. I put my palms together, bowed, and asked my question. I was no more than a couple of feet from him.
When he opened his mouth and started to respond, I thought his breath would knock me off my feet. It was very high-octane and I had to make an effort not to back away from it.
His answer was about 200 words long. Of those 200 words, I understood exactly one. That one word was "Cheetos." I was not about to ask him to repeat his answer and so I put my palms together, lowered my head and bowed once more. But as I came up from the bow, his right hand suddenly shot out like a rattlesnake on a mouse. He grabbed my pressed palms firmly and, when I looked up in surprise, he pulled my hands downward and stared intently into my eyes. He didn't say a word, but his eyes said with perfect clarity, "Let's cut the bullshit!"
It was one of the best teachings I ever received, drunk or sober.
Im not dissapointed. I am just bewildered. Like I said, meditation is supposed to be able and does give you more fulfillment then any drug or etc. so I find it hard to believe that someone would drink or do cocaine and have had been attained higher states of consciences. It makes me wonder
What was your question
Is there any point on practicing if its all bolony
So, not all things can be cured even by buddhism
Your goals are different so you can work towards a different result. Trungpa's lifestyle may not be suitable for you.
Those four cannot be cured. (not that you have zero control over them and you just lie in bed. But just that you are liberated from suffering over them and like Ebenezer scrooge at the end you wake up free with joy.)
I think what matters is our own understanding and commitment. Teachers are fine to help us on the path - but its a mistake to have too many expectations and regard them with too much adulation. Also of course, it's important to take time to investigate, choose carefully, and look beyond the blind guru worship which can sometimes take place.
.
It isn't all baloney. You, yourself, would probably realize positive gains. Don't throw it all out because of one person. He wasn't able to apply himself to the discipline of daily meditation, etc., or perhaps chose not to. But the rest of us do, and get results. So can you.
Im just saying, if the dalai lama starts drinking, Im out
It was so long ago... but I'll take some time to search around the internet and see if something jogs my memory. If I find it, I'll get back to you. Thanks
ha ha ha! I wouldn't blame you! But it's not going to happen.
Look, lots of disillusioning things happen, but that's because teachers are human. The teachings, however, have stood the test of time and are brilliant as ever. You can't go wrong with the teachings. Just take the time to research and choose your teacher carefully.
It takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day. There's not going to be a sudden *POOF* , and you're suddenly transformed, happy and blissed out. You study, learn to change your thought patters to healthier (or "more skilfull" as we say) ones, you become calmer if you have a regular meditation practice, little by little you become a mellower, more insightful and therefore wiser person.
I saw your thread on your meditation difficulties. Are you doing correct breathing techniques as you begin each meditation session? That's important for calming and centering the mind. The breath is key.
Don't be discouraged. Do you have a sangha to participate in (besides us)?
"Invested emotionally" sounds a little like you're attached to a certain outcome that you imagine. This can sabotage your progress, it can cause frustration. Let go of any preconceptions you may have of what this process looks like or what the goal looks like. It takes time, so practice, and take it as it comes. Each day, just let it be. Small steps over time will add up to bigger steps. Patience.
That's an awesome story. One can dream one is a pure bodhisattva, one can dream that one is an incurable drunk... if you know you are dreaming the two are of one taste. That reminds me of the story of how Patrul got his secret name "Old Dog":
"One day, Patrul Rinpoche was minding his own business engaged with study and contemplation when he suddenly heard Do Khyentsé's voice. Do Khyentsé was known for his ability and tendency to speak very loudly - he was "high volume Dharma." Patrul Rinpoche was not overly surprised when he heard Do Khyentsé's voice roaring and bellowing, but when he heard that the words of taunt and mocking were directed at him he was a bit taken aback. Certainly, he had no wish to approach this crazy wisdom yogi in one of his wild moods and just when this feeling passed through him, Do Khyentsé shouted, "Well, well Mr. Dharma Hero, what's the matter? Got no backbone? Hey, Mister Bodhisattva, what's the matter? A little scared? If you really know the heart of the matter, how come fear has got you by the balls?!" With this phrase, Do Khyentsé grabbed Patrul by his long ngakpa hair and threw him to the ground.
From flat on his back, Patrul could smell the alcohol on Do Khyentsé's breath. Do Khyentsé was a wildman, a crazy yogi, a wisdom madman who lived as a hunter, drank copious quantities of alcohol and had many many dakini consorts. Even knowing all this, Patrul could not help but think, "This is why the Buddhas have said not to drink. This is the downfall of alcohol." Even more, Patrul thought, "I can forgive this behavior and have forbearance because the Master is under the influence of alcohol."
Well, such relative and idiotically conventional thinking does not go over well with crazy yogis. Do Khyentsé immediately read the thoughts and feelings going through Patrul Rinpoche's mind and shouted in a voice like the rolling of thunder or the roar of a dragon, "Intellectual!" And he spit on the ground. "Idiot - full of fancy words and thinking, intellectual!
And this time, he gave him the finger. Suddenly in a softer voice, Do Khyentsé said, "Every vow is broken by the mundane thoughts which betray the innate perfection. This is not the way of Only Father Padma's secret teachings, you old dog." Then shouting again, he said. "EVERYTHING IS PERFECT!" and walked off.
Instantly, the shock of recognition swept over Patrul Rinpoche. Here, there and everywhere dissolved into the singleness of Fixing Patrul with the Nail of Clarity: The nail of intrinsic recognition had fixed the tendency to stray from rigpa. Marveling in great exaltation of exquisite vast equanimity, Patrul wept tears of gratitude and devotion for the innumerable skillful means and wisdom presentations in every flavor and style."
It helps me to understand how full of shit psychologists are, yes. In Tibetan, as I am sure you know, all women are called "mo" or "yum" which we would translate as "mother". Indeed, all who worship the Great Mother also refer to women as incarnations of her, be it in the Hindu Shakta or the mother tantra traditions of Vajrayana. The holy Sri Ramakrishna, who had an uncomplicated loving relationship with his birth mother also refered to his wife Sarada Devi as "mother".
I have yet to meet a single person who has been cured by psychotherapy. To a person all that has happened is that they have become even more complicated, self-absorbed and self-justifying about their neurotic hangups. Given that they can't even understand ordinary living people, heaven help them trying to understand a dead guy who had realization through parsing his writing.
As I said, it was just some forgotten, off-the-shelf Buddhist question ... something solemn but bloodless. I just wanted to get his attention and honestly don't remember more than the fact that I did.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche:
Being an alcoholic does not make one a bad person, or a stupid person, or even a bad teacher. It makes one an alcoholic. I wish all those people enabling him would have stepped up to help him, instead. The poor man didn't deserve to suffer like that for people's expectations of what he was supposed to be, instead of what he was.
But that's just an old Zennist's opinion.
yuk yuk
That groupie mentality doesn't do anyone any favors. Common sense tends to get completely suspended around some of the "celebrity" lamas.
Was Trungpa self-centered or selfish in his drinking? Was he manipulative? Or did he simply fail to live up to the expectations of others?
I honestly don't know. I'm just asking.
He was suffering in his drinking, and that's all anyone should need to know. Whether it is a Rinpoche or a friend, you try to help. People addicted are driven by their addictions, of course. I can't comment on his character. I am not a Tibetan Buddhist, so he was never my Teacher. All I know is, understanding the Dharma and falling short of the teachings can coexist.
Take me home ~ Phil Collins
Because I've been a prisoner all my life. And i can say to you. Because I don't remember. Take take me home.
Kate : )