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Friends Who Preach to You
Thao
Veteran
Would you be able to comfortably be friends with a Christian if they were trying to save you by trying to get you to go to church or to church functions and then if they wrote this to you?
"I am of the opinion there are people in all churches that aren’t connected with God; who just go through formalities and it means nothing to them spiritually. If you have read the new testament scriptures, you know that Christ was really hard on the established church (Jewish) leaders because they had all these 600 rules added to the commandments you had to abide by if you wanted to follow Judaism, and they had lost all sight of loving God, helping the poor and ministering to the afflicted. In fact they were stealing widows property, selling sacrificial doves and animals in the temple at inflated prices and in general making it impossible for the general population to connect with God.
I think we have to be very careful today. Connecting with God has not so much to do with keeping church rules, rather doing what Christ taught….He summed up the 10 commandments by saying Love God with all your heart, strength and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do that, the other commandments all fall into place: ie: we will be honoring our parents, not committing adultery, not killing etc. He tried to make spirituality so simple, so that anyone could understand it, and the Jewish rulers hated him because they thought the messiah was coming to kick out the Roman rulers, not to revolutionize the church spiritually.
The only reason I attend church is because I find I can stay more spiritually connected to God and to people who are trying to do the same with a weekly reminder of ways I can follow Christ’s teachings. I do not think you have to belong to a church to be spiritually connected with God……However, Christ said to the early church “do not abandon the assembling of yourselves together”. The early church was instructed to meet, pray for the church that was just getting started, and for the apostles facing jail and persecution for preaching what Christ said, and they were to practice loving one another by breading bread together and by giving to the poor, afflicted and imprisoned. The early church could not have gotten started, in my opinion, if they did not meet together for encouragement, prayer and support.
So, the church in general today is not perfect, and I think you will find all degrees of spiritual journeys in the pews. Nevertheless, without the church, even with its imperfections, I shudder to think what our country would look like today."
If this doesn't bother you, why not? It is causing me a lot of problems. She knows I am a Buddhist, and all I said to get this was that I quit a book group because their books were all Christian books and those books were trying to save people and put down other religions. And would you say that such a person is "hostile" to the dharma?
"I am of the opinion there are people in all churches that aren’t connected with God; who just go through formalities and it means nothing to them spiritually. If you have read the new testament scriptures, you know that Christ was really hard on the established church (Jewish) leaders because they had all these 600 rules added to the commandments you had to abide by if you wanted to follow Judaism, and they had lost all sight of loving God, helping the poor and ministering to the afflicted. In fact they were stealing widows property, selling sacrificial doves and animals in the temple at inflated prices and in general making it impossible for the general population to connect with God.
I think we have to be very careful today. Connecting with God has not so much to do with keeping church rules, rather doing what Christ taught….He summed up the 10 commandments by saying Love God with all your heart, strength and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do that, the other commandments all fall into place: ie: we will be honoring our parents, not committing adultery, not killing etc. He tried to make spirituality so simple, so that anyone could understand it, and the Jewish rulers hated him because they thought the messiah was coming to kick out the Roman rulers, not to revolutionize the church spiritually.
The only reason I attend church is because I find I can stay more spiritually connected to God and to people who are trying to do the same with a weekly reminder of ways I can follow Christ’s teachings. I do not think you have to belong to a church to be spiritually connected with God……However, Christ said to the early church “do not abandon the assembling of yourselves together”. The early church was instructed to meet, pray for the church that was just getting started, and for the apostles facing jail and persecution for preaching what Christ said, and they were to practice loving one another by breading bread together and by giving to the poor, afflicted and imprisoned. The early church could not have gotten started, in my opinion, if they did not meet together for encouragement, prayer and support.
So, the church in general today is not perfect, and I think you will find all degrees of spiritual journeys in the pews. Nevertheless, without the church, even with its imperfections, I shudder to think what our country would look like today."
If this doesn't bother you, why not? It is causing me a lot of problems. She knows I am a Buddhist, and all I said to get this was that I quit a book group because their books were all Christian books and those books were trying to save people and put down other religions. And would you say that such a person is "hostile" to the dharma?
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Comments
So this is not a surprise. So what bothers you?
However I have a feeling that reading the bible is the furthest thought from your mind, that's your choice ofcourse. I haven't read it either because I have plenty of other books that have priority on my list. You do come over as a bit closed minded towards her religion though, probably because of the way she preaches to you. I'm sorry if I have the wrong idea, the internet is not a good place to gauge other people. I could be very mistaken calling you closed minded about christianity and I realise this. I only type it incase this would be the case.
For her, she would probably think it would be disrespectful to you NOT to preach on you.
You want her to behave in a way that is pleasing to you, but she can only behave in a way that is pleasing to her.
Just like you do.
Your friend will behave in a way that she think is right.
Just like you will do.
You get upset because she doesn't bend to your will.
If you want peace in your life you must come to peace with the fact that the world and it's inhabitants will not bend to your will; you cannot control your environment, only understand it and accept it for what it is.
One Saturday morning, an older and a younger man, both very neatly dressed, knocked on my front door. The older man had a white book under one arm. The younger man, who seemed to be in training, carried a brief case I was to learn contained a variety of pamphlets.
The older man said how do you do, introduced his Christian sect and then asked me what I thought about things in the world. I said what I thought, which was that sometimes things could look pretty gloomy. That was precisely what he wanted to hear and he launched into a description of how the answers to our day-to-day gloom lay in the Bible. He talked quite a lot.
Because I was in a good mood that day, I listened. When he finally came up for air and stopped talking, I told him I was perfectly delighted that he had found the answers that he found convincing. Not everyone was so lucky ... he was a lucky man ... I was happy for him.
That was not the response he wanted, so he began again: What did I think of pornography. I told him what I thought. And that was enough to launch him on another deep dive into the answers and solace provided by the Bible. Again, he talked quite a lot. And when he came up for air a second time, I said to him again how lucky I thought he was to have found the answers he was looking for. Not everyone finds satisfactory answers in life, but he seemed to have managed it. How fortunate!
Finally, he got the drift and went across the street to peddle his wares.
It always has made me curious why, if someone knows the answers already, they insist on pestering others with questions.
She is a very pushy person about other things as well and never gives up. Pushing me to do things with her that I don't wish to do, and not taking no for an answer.
When she learned that I was a Buddhist last year she said that she wanted to compare teachings, but I knew it was going to be one sided. She also said that I wasn't a Buddhist, that I was just searching. I told her that I had been a Buddhist for 6 years. I think if she was truly my friend she would respect my beliefs and not discount me. When she talked about how wonderful her church is and goes into specifics it didn't bother me even though I knew that she was trying to change my views.
I don't believe in the Old Testament of the Bible, and that God in the Bible. It is distasteful to me. I have and am reading books that compare Christ to Buddha.
I basically told her that we were all connected to God whether we knew it or not and even if it didn't seem like it. (I was not going to come out and say that there was no God.) And then I told her that I didn't believe that Christ turned over the tables at the temple because he was a peace loving person. And then as I grew more angry when I read her last paragraph about how horrible it would be if the U.S. didn't have Christianity, I told her that Christianity brought in slavery, killed the Native Americans, went to war in Iraq, etc.
And then as I grew more angry, I wrote her and said that our friendship was depressing me and so I was backing away.
My first letter of telling her that we were all connected brought silence. She never reacts to whatever I say but just wrote me about her fun trip. The second letter she did the same, waited four days and wrote me more about her vacation. Then I blocked her emails. I know when I was a Christian that we were taught to always be mild tempered and meet opposition with kindness. I know that her technique is to get me saved. I know because I used to go door to door trying to save people, and that religion has left me very bitter. The elder in fact told me when I confessed a sin, that I was dead in God's eyes and would die at Armageddon. This affects me deeply when anyone begins telling me that we are not all connected to God if we are not in a certain religion. What happens if I tell her this. She doesn't listen. She never listens to anything I tell her. It is a one way friendship that I don't need, but it is one I want out of and out of as kindly as I can, which is hard when I am still angry, and when I know when she comes back in March she will be at my door. I tried to end our friendship before but she said things that made me feel bad for her.
Trying to be a Buddhist is not easy.
"Trying" isn't "doing".
Don't try to be.
Be.
I understand what you are saying about respect, but if i tell someone i don't wish to talk about religion, then i think they should respect that. Yes, she is doing what she was taught to do.
I don't believe that you would like it if we were friends and all I did was try to save you. Think about that. It wears on one after awhile.
my teacher told me one day - "Ïf you can't go to church with your parents, you have misunderstood Dharma"
he said this because i was telling him about my parents who are extremist Christians. Eventhough I do not agree with their views, I listen to them and I acknowledge what they are saying. And move on.
What I do find interesting - and I think I should mention it here - is that they have never questioned me about my religion, although they know that I have a teacher.
Actions sometimes speak much louder than words
i never said that i couldn't listen to christianity. i said that i didn't like judgments, the judgment being that not all are connected to god. i also said that i was deeply hurt when i was told and believed that i was dead in god's eyes by a christian faith that kicked me out. i think judgments are harmful to others. i can sit here and tell you most of what jesus said and how his sermon on the mount is buddhist. how most of his teachings are buddhist. i have no problems with christ.
why do these comments about being dead in God's eyes bug you when you know that it is not true? if you are a practicing Buddhist - and you have been for the past 6 years you would be able to put such comments into context within your understanding.
So unless someone can come on here and not judge me, I will leave.
I believed it to be true when I was kicked out of that religion, and I went into a deep depression for many years over it. What bothers me now is to have anyone tell another person that they are not connected to God. That is cruel. Basically, I can't think of anything more cruel to say to a person who believes in God.
Read my previous post again. Until you accept her for who she is, there will be an internal conflict within yourself.
Weather you choose to remain friend with her or never see her again is irrelevant.
You cannot change the world to make it fit your preferences, but you can accept it for what it is and find peace within yourself. This is Buddhism.
do you know why I said that?
I should not have brought this subject to this forum. I realize now that people will never understand why certain things upset certain people. Of course it is easy for some of you to deal with Christian teachings, to even read the Bible with a Christian. I should have known better. Thanks though.
listen - on top of compassion and loving kindness - other good qualities are being humble and showing tolerance. (imho)
everyone is different on this planet - no two people are the same - if you truly understand that - and you are able to practice the 6 paramitas for a start - you might be able to handle these situations a lot easier.
especially that short temper of yours
I understand that you get angry, resentful and frustrated - but where is that getting you?
if your current approach isn't working, you need a different approach, don't you?
Look - When I visit my mother, in Italy, I go to church with her. She is Roman catholic.
I was born, baptised, raised, confirmed, educated and married as a Roman Catholic. I was immersed completely in that religion.
She knows I'm Buddhist. She knows I don't pray to God. She knows I am not of that faith any more.
Actually, she is completely relaxed and content with that.
In fact, it was she who introduced me to Buddhism.
But other Christian Religious people have not been so considerate or relaxed.
And I know what it's like to have people hammer away at you, badger you, pester you and attempt to erode at your resistance.
But they can only get to you, if you let them.
Did you know that there is a Christian man who is ALSO a Zen Monk? His name is Jim Pym, and he is a prominent mover in the Quaker religion, but he's also an active ordained Zen Monk.
Didn't think it would be possible? think again. (He wrote a book called "you don't have to sit on the floor!" It's very insightful.
And Thomas Merton, a Roman Catholic Monk wanted to be the best Buddhist he could be.
So there are many people who can overlap and combine the two practices.
If you resist, hate, deplore and condemn something to the extent that it makes you so stressed - you're actually holding it as close to you in your heart, as if you loved it with all your might.
Genkaku's approach - "I'm very glad you've found something that works for you so wonderfully well" - is spot-on. Just be 'deaf' to her approaches, and change the subject, so that she cannot stick to talking to you about something continually and in free-flow.
Don't be angry with us.
The problem here is not that we're judging you.
It's that we know what you're talking about, because we've all had exposure to Christian beginnings (we weren't born Buddhist, see?) and we've all 'been there' at one point or another.
And perhaps you're not happy with what we say, because you didn't expect us to be so laid-back and accepting.
But that's the key. Acceptance.
And the more you accept her beliefs are her beliefs, and that she is alwaays going to try to convince you they should be yours as well - the easier it will be to deal with the onslaught. because acceptance of another human being in your life - whatever they're like - is Compassion in Action.
Every religion has something to offer. Different things appeal to different people.
My brother is a christian soon-to-be minister, so I've grown up in a similar situation.
What I've done recently is opened myself up to him, and his beliefs. I don't see any point clinging to Buddhism. I call myself a Buddhist, yes - but that doesn't mean I should approach other religions teachings with any sort of conceit. You might not be the same as me, in that the teachings of other religions might not interest you. I look at it as a wonderful learning opportunity - no strings attached, no expectation. Every religion, and everyone, has something to offer. Approach what they believe with an open mind, and accept that for them, it is the truth.
Your friend obviously cares a great deal for you - and you need to respect that this is a sign of compassion on their part.
They are just talking; it's just sound. Eventually if they feel they aren't converting you, they'll either drop it and stick around as friends, or leave entirely (showing you that conversion was their only reason for speaking to you). It's all on how you react to them.
I have no hard feelings towards her outside of just saying that i want her out of my life and i hope this time it will be easier to do. i had wondered how you dealt with it, and i liked what genkako said even if i can't apply it to my own situation.
i know that we are not supposed to debate with these people and that if they are causing you problems move quietly away from them. that works with people who are not persistent. she always told me that she was pushy, and she is. she never takes no for an answer, and so it has been hard getting away from her. last summer i blocked her emails, i got caller id, but she stopped over and apologized but about the wrong thing, claimed i was her best friend, which i doubt since she doesn't know me, and then i gave in because i felt bad for her. just to have to deal with this all over again when she comes home this march.
i meditate daily, but it is hard when you are dealing with people like her and then dealing with myself, a person who can't handle anyone trying to save them.
i like how the pilgrim in "the way of a pilgrim" said that he had to be away from people. so you see i do read some christian material. right now i have a book i am reading called The Noble Eightfold Path of Christ and The Zen Teachings of Jesus. I have Thomas Moore's books and know of Thomas Merton. I have the book, In His Steps and have always loved it. I am not against Christianity and think that it is beneficial to others and brings them happiness. But if a person is trying to save you they are in essence saying that God will not love you unless you come into our fold. They are saying that you are going to go to hell if you are not in our fold. Their concern is real, and I understand it because I used to be one of those door knockers that woke you up on Sunday mornings just to save your soul. But at the same time it is demeaning to me to have a person believe that we are all not saved, whether we are Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim. It is in essence saying that you are not good enough. It has harmed more people than it ever helped.
Cloud, you are so right. But I know her, and I tried to have a conversation about Buddha/Christ with her, and when this happened she didn't answer my email, and yet she had started it by preaching to me, telling me that not all are connected to God. My email to her was loving. I spoke of a christ that was peaceful and of a god that loved all and saved all. Four days later I get an email from her about her vacation and how it is going. Nothing about what I said. That is her way of manipulating the conversation to her own ends.
federica,
I know that her religion is life and death to her. I know that she derives much happiness and contentment practicing her faith, and I am glad for her. Going to church with her would not make me happy, so I don't go. I went to the Epsicopal Church two Sundays ago thinking I could connect somehow. I sat there singing and listening to their praying and thinking, "If this were the Catholic church in latin, and we were chanting gregorian chants i would be in 7th heaven. I love gregorian chants.
I have been with her to her christian friend's luncheon and sat around listening to them talk about christ and listening to their prayer before lunch. i have met her minister. i would have been better off to not have given in to her constant asking me to go to luncheon's etc. with her. that is my fault. it is my fault that i didn't end the friendship 3 years ago but i had this belief that a christian and a non christian should have some common ground. and yet i have christian friends in my life who are very dear to me, but they do not try to save me. one is a very devout mormon, the other a lutheran. my mormon friend talks to me about what goes on in her temple and how much it means to her, but she never preaches to me. i have a catholic friend, a pentacostal, and on and on. i even have an atheist friend.
and how do we really know that she cares about me and isn't just doing what christ said to do and so is trying to save me? i basically think she is on a mission from god, or at least thinks she is.
this is a woman who when i got hurt helping her work, said that i didn't get hurt that way, and when i was still seeing a chiropractor office still nagged me to help her until i gave in and then got hurt again. and who didn't care but continued to nag. who when i said last summer that i can't help her anymore said to just say no, and so i did, and the next thing i know she is asking me to help her again, and i ignored her so she didn't repeat it again. this is a woman when i said that i didn't want to talk politics continued to talk about rush limbaugh and her republican views, and so i ignored it. and when i bring up a subject not in her mind, pretends she doesn't hear by not responding. this is a manipulative person who now knows that i am a buddhist and even though i said i didn't want to talk about it and didn't like preaching, preaches to me every chance she gets through emails or comments when we are together.
i am the person who is stupid enough to put up with it until i can't stand anymore. that is why i am so angry. angry that i allowed myself to stay in a friendship for so long, a friendship where the only time we saw each other was when she called me to help her do some work. we never went to lunch, we never did anything else together until she decided to save me and take me to her church luncheons because now i was her project.
and i want this anger to go away so i can sit quietly and meditate and then someday i will be strong enough to not allow those types in my life, to see them beforehand and run. someday maybe people trying to save me won't bother me, but i doubt it. i remember thich naht hanh saying that there are things in life that you don't get over. he never got over the war in vietnam. i never got over being kicked out of a religion that i loved deeply and then losing god and my friends all in one day.
my teacher said to never allow anyone in my life that causes me conflicting emotions. i agree with him, but it is so hard when the person comes over and says that they are sorry and want my friendship. i am always full of guilt because i don't want to hurt her, but it happens anyway, doesn't it?
i just want a quiet peaceful life. and yet my guilt is deeper than the truth that my guru is telling me when he said to walk away. it should be easy.
With her we just discussed gardening, or she did and I followed suit. And that was all that was ever discussed. Then when she learned I was learning Buddhism she not only discussed gardening but then began talking about how wonderful god was and how he helped her and then began trying to save me. Talking about god didn't bother me; saving me d does.
Her idea of fun was to ask me to go to a nursery with her, when I really didn't want to go but said i would, and then it would end up with her asking me to help her lift 30 to 50 lb. bags of grass clippings, which in turn hurt my neck and back. But all she wanted to do was get me out with her to do this, and so going to a nursery was one way or just asking me to go help. I felt sorry that no one else would help her, so I would give in.
We never did other things together or talked about other things. I met her when I joined the Garden Club. I left the club because she wanted a work horse out of me, but then she ended up still having a work horse. Some Garden Club women tried to warn me about her, and they all seemed to get out of working with her; I didn't.
Cloud, you are so right. She doesn't respond to email. But she is that way when in person too. I asked her if she got my email last summer when I was upset with her over how she browbeated me for 30 minutes when I was in her car after I said I was not going to a Garden Club meeting. She kept telling me that I had joined and so I was committed to going. I said I was tired. She said it was no excuse and went on and on and on. Anyway, I asked her if she got my email after I saw that hers was her browbeating me some more, and she laughed and said, "Oh, that tirad." Then she dropped it. Like I said, If I tried to bring up a conversation other than gardening, and this in person, she would turn the deaf ear. She basically controlled the conversation. I feel so stupid to have allowed myself to be manipulated. I feel so stupid for feeling guilt.
I just want to be comfortable in knowing that I will be able to let her out of my life and won't, by this spring, be once again dealing with issues with her.
To let it go, even if it's hard, is in my humble opinion good karma in your situation. If she can't play nice and doesn't try to understand or accept you, then that indeed is her karma!
Anyway, I'm sure you'll get it all taken care of! It's your life. Take it easy, my friend.
To let it go is good karma. You mean to walk away from her is good karma? If that is so, then that makes it much easier. but that is hard to understand.
It would be harmful to argue with her or yell at her and such.
It would be harmful to you to let her keep running roughshod over you.
So letting it go, letting her go, is one good choice. Another may be to work it out to where you are still friends but don't push each other in the area of religion.
You'd know best, and if it's as you say where she isn't going to change her tune, the decision to let it/her go is the best option.
I'm glad you've figured out what you're going to do.
Peace bro.
It would be harmful to you to let her keep running roughshod over you."
I agree with you here. Running roughshod is how it has been and would always be.
"So letting it go, letting her go, is one good choice."
She won't change. I saw that immediately after we became friend again when she started all over asking me to go help her. I saw that when I told her that I wanted her to respect my beliefs and not preach to me, and she continued to preach. So I can see letting her go.
And what I need to do now is meditate and quit thinking about all this because it keeps me riled up inside. I am normally a very calm and peaceful person until I can take no more. And during that time I think that I will never find peace again, but then I know I will. I think at these times I come to some conclusion deep within that I can take no more, but instead of walking away quietly as I should, I think I can change things by talking to such people. It never works. Those who care for you really never cause you problems in life, and those that don't give you lessons. I often feel that I fail to pass those lessons in the right manner, but at least I apologized to her if i wrote anything hurtful to her, but still added that I needed to leave. And about the only thing I said that could have been hurtful was in telling her that her friendship depressed me and that i was blocking her emails.
Just trying to add perspective.