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I kind of like it when people try to preach to me. Because then I preach to them about Buddhism, and why I have have no faith in a god. Then after that they never preach to me again lol!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2011
Thao, you must think we're some kind of thick. I think I must be anyway, because I'm usually quite good at reading between the lines.... This isn't about her preaching or proselytising, really, is it? it's about the guilt you feel in severing a relationship with someone who treats you like a doormat and at the same time badgers and preaches at you. Cool. That's simple: The Buddha tells us quite plainly to not consort with fools. If you look at a wonderful teaching called the Dhammapada, he directly addresses this very issue.
Have a look at this link (the whole Dhammapada is "like fresh mountain water to a thirsty man"....!)
Says so, right there. I have a confession to make.
I once said to a person of a similar nature to this woman: "I'm very happy that you've found what works for you, but I also hope God forgives you for making somebody really unhappy, upset and miserable."
he was astounded. "When have I ever done that?!?" he asked, incredulously. "To me. You won't leave me alone, you keep pestering me, and I feel as if it's patronising, condescending, rude, invasive and it's definitely not wanted. You really need to understand 'No' means 'No', and you need to know that sometimes, it's the better part of valour to take 'No' for a full and final answer. You have no idea when enough is enough, do you? You've caused me a great deal of anxiety,upset and anger, and I don't think God would be happy with your achievement, so I hope God forgives you. He's apparently all-merciful, so he's kinder than I am."
That wasn't really very nice of me. But the worse thing is, it made me feel really good to see his chin hit his boots. I now feel bad - about making him feel bad. But I also know that he is the kind of 'fool' the Buddha was referring to.
So I think you need to consider that this friend of yours, is actually what in amateur psychological terms is referred to as an "Emotional Vampire" or Emotional leech".
Now you have the 'weaponry' - deal with it positively. But with Compassion. And not 'Idiot' Compassion either. First and foremost, if you do not have Wise Compassion for yourself, then you can never develop it for others.
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Thao, i understand how irritating it can be to feel as though your friend is disrespecting you. but this is how i think about it... there have been times in my buddhist study/practice when i realized something that just seemed so phenomenal and true to me, i suddenly wanted to tell everyone i knew. sometimes, i feel so happy and full of love for my fellow humans, i just want to teach everyone how i got to this place! this is the same feeling that your christian friend has except it comes from a different source.
i truly wish that more people had a "whatever floats your boat" attitude, but it's pretty rare to find in a christian. so, it's not surprising to me that your friend sent you this. what you need to try and think about is the intention. surely there is something that you have found in buddhism that makes you feel positive. well, she feels the same about christianity. so you see, you're really just the same... except her religion tells her she must try to save your soul, lol.
also, have you considered the possibility that perhaps even though you didn't mean it that way, she took offense to what you said? it sounds to me like she is trying to explain, "hey, i know some churches are sorta messed up... but they aren't all that way!" the whole letter just seemed slightly defensive to me. whenever someone close to me does something that seems mean or irritating or disrespectful to me, my first action is to retrace my steps and words and think, "is it possible that i said or did something that this person could interpret in a way that would make them react this way?"
...instead of walking away quietly as I should, I think I can change things by talking to such people. It never works.
I tried that with my ex-wife. It didn't work with her either. Just think, Thao- it could be a whole lot worse. You get to just leave instead of paying for it the rest of your life.
Just trying to add perspective.
Your added perspective is very insightful and helpful SherabDorje
I kind of like it when people try to preach to me. Because then I preach to them about Buddhism, and why I have have no faith in a god. Then after that they never preach to me again lol!
It was much easier for me when I was not a Buddhist, Mr. Serenity. Now I am trying so hard to be kind that it is driving me nuts. I had a pen pal years ago that kept preaching to me. I told her to stop; she didn't, and I told her why I was qutting writing to her. A year later she begged me to write again and she was fine, and then we began emailing each other. She began preaching to me, and I began saying things like, If God is Love why did he do this? I did that a few times, and she never had an answer; instead she stopped preaching and actually told me it is better to not talk about the Bible. I have lots of anti bible arsenal that I can use, but I am told that we should not put another person's faith done. But I like your way; it works.
"Now you have the 'weaponry' - deal with it positively. But with Compassion. And not 'Idiot' Compassion either. First and foremost, if you do not have Wise Compassion for yourself, then you can never develop it for others."
Thanks so much. You got to the heart of it. I actually like what you said to that person. Part of it was that I can't stand anyone to preach to me, but all of this would have been easier without guilt. Without guilt she would have been gone long ago.
Thanks for the links. I am reading them now.
Thanks Zombiegirl. She just saw another opening to preach and took it. I was only telling her that I didn't like a certain book because it was preachy and it put down churches like the Lutheran and Catholic, and that I felt that wrong. Her intentions are good though.
I kind of like it when people try to preach to me. Because then I preach to them about Buddhism, and why I have have no faith in a god. Then after that they never preach to me again lol!
It was much easier for me when I was not a Buddhist, Mr. Serenity. Now I am trying so hard to be kind that it is driving me nuts. I had a pen pal years ago that kept preaching to me. I told her to stop; she didn't, and I told her why I was qutting writing to her. A year later she begged me to write again and she was fine, and then we began emailing each other. She began preaching to me, and I began saying things like, If God is Love why did he do this? I did that a few times, and she never had an answer; instead she stopped preaching and actually told me it is better to not talk about the Bible. I have lots of anti bible arsenal that I can use, but I am told that we should not put another person's faith done. But I like your way; it works.
Yeah there is a bunch you can tell them. The big thing is I'm not telling them they're wrong. I am telling them from an Agnostic point of view that I don't really care in worshiping someone who doesn't do anything for me and I just can't have faith in someone who doesn't respond to me lol. Then as I start getting into Buddhist philosophy and such they realize that there is no way they can convert me and they leave me alone heh. Very easy and pretty fun for me, since I have nothing to prove. When you start trying to prove something, or claim that you're right and they're wrong, that's when it can get nasty.
A Buddhist can't always be kind, they can try to be, but kindness can also come through honesty. It takes bravery to be honest, and humility to realize that your own honest point of view is not always right, it's just a genuine offering. So you can offer what is honest, just don't claim it to be absolute. Just because someone claims something to be absolute doesn't mean it is.
That kind of argument with people can be fun. I try not to use it. I know when this woman said that the she shudders to think what America would be like without Christianity, I could not resist. I said we would not have slavery, we would not have killed the Native Americans or gone to war in Iraq. But then people are people, and we would have had all those things through greed. But I did say that we would be doing what was taught in the first few chapters of Acts, and that is socialize medicine and socialism in general. I probably should not have said any of that stuff, and I was refraining from saying more. Well, I did tell her that there is a lot of violence in the Bible, but that Buddha was never violent. This is what I wrote:
"The Bible of Christianity has 1,197 cruel and violent passages [1] in which God, the figure of worship, either commits violent acts or commands acts of violence. In both cases, the Bible is advocating violence.
As it stands now, there are no passages in Buddhist scripture that advocate violence.
Critic of religion Sam Harris writes that "...faith inspires violence in at least two ways. First, people often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it... Second, far greater numbers of people fall into conflict with one another because they define their moral community on the basis of their religious affiliation...""
But I did this after she pretended to not get my loving letters.
I was taught to not argue with anyone but to either let it go or walk away. Harder said than done as you can see above.
I must correct something I said about, but since being a Buddhist is is harder. I was not a Buddhist for the two years that I was trying to get away from her. Still, I had so much guilt. Now it was only that I am trying to do it in a kinder manner and don't think I am doing so well. But I am going to learn Wise Compassion.
we had a non religious government in russia et al, and they didnt really do any better than the christian west as per violence, buddhist countries over 2000+yrs seem to have experinced remarkabky less violent upheavals, at least until westerners came into the picture, we may indeed have the buddha to thank for that legacy, he wasnt just meditating under a tree all day, he accomplished a LOT of things, just giving you some more "ammo" for your friend
for only three weeks, i was a bit of a failure in the no eating after 12noon precept, cambodian therevada practise at an immigrants temple for refugees here in southern california. i was the only american at the temple, so they cut me some slack....
i would have greatly failed the after noon precept to not eat too.
i used to live in southern ca. north san diego
and even though i say that i have been a buddhist only 6 months, i did go to a Vietnamese temple for 3 years, but i didn't learn anything. i went because it was peaceful there. and hey, they let you eat after lunch if you are a monk.
I want to thank everyone again for their help. I believe I have enough to help me now to choose wise association and to hopefully obtain wise compassion. In any case I feel calm about this today.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well.....
"The only reason you have caused me so much guilt and upset, is because I have permitted it to be so. I'm denying permission from this day onward. You can either remain in contact with me, and be a friend who I will help as and when it's possible or convenient, providing you stop trying to convert me - or we can end this right now, and I promise you - I will never see or speak to you again. And if you decide the former, I will be happy. But one slightest venture into the second option, and I will cut off all contact. I trust I make myself completely and unambiguously clear. Wishing you much Metta and Karuna. Namaste.
Thao".
Is the best I can come up with. If that's what you choose to do, that is.
Otherwise, just skip "the Middle-man" - and stop this all now.
thank you so much federica. i appreciate all the energy you put into helping me along with others like Cloud and then others as well. i like what you just wrote as well.
My comments. Thanks for letting me write them out.
I don't trust highly-motivated close-knit groups of people not to abuse others with common and effective thought control techniques. Google TCT.
I "hate" it when people talk about god like they know something "supernatural" AND intend to communicate it. It can't be communicated only experienced; no words allowed they don't work. People who talk like they know do not know. Worse is when they continue to preach to people who have had enough and want them to stop.
Buddha prohibited preaching, didn't he? He promoted avid "adversarial" questioning among those who asked for his teachings. Additionally, if you do not ask a Buddhist about Buddhism the B. keeps his/her mouth shut!
I agree with you Roger. Thanks for your comments. Being that I was once in a religion that used thought control to witness to others, I know how easy it is to convert others to your way of thinking if they allow you to listen to them long enough, and they always seem to do this by being very calm and loving.
I always want to thank Sherab again for telling me to move away from her. The more that say this the stronger I feel. I know that talking to my friend doesn't help because she won't listen, and yet she will admit to being pushy.
She is on vacation and will be back sometime in March, which is why I wanted to get it in my head beforehand that it is okay to let her go without guilt. She only knows that I don't wish to remain friends. She can't email me, and while she has a cell phone she has not tried to call, but of course i told her i got caller id.
it is strange when i think of it that i believe i was mean to her, and yet i only told her my own beliefs and then told her what i thought of Christianity in relation to how they treated the slaves, etc. and then i told her that i didn't want to be friends. she didn't listen last time i tried to end our friendship, so only time will tell.
If someone preached to me I normally ignore them. But noone has tried it in awhile. Even though I talked to her and it's funny when I say church is boring and she starts yelling at me saying I'm a bad person. She's very Christian
First off, I think you were to quick to attack Christianity when someone wondered where we would be without it. There are many criminals that claim to be buddhist, and there are some evidence that Buddhist aren't always peaceful. I think it is important to understand that we, as human beings, often overlook the teachings of our religions and how we are supposed to act under them, and rather we look at those who are of a religion but only use that to justify their wrongdoings. If those in our history had remained true to their Christian beliefs, they would have not killed native Americans, they would have treated their slaves much more humanely, and they would have never declared war in the name of God. I think we must not get big heads because we see Buddhism as much more pure when it just hasn't been quite so corrupted by bad history. Now that is all for my little defense of Christianity.
Onto your actual problem: I think you must approach this with some compassion; you are look at how she is trying to convert you rather than that she is trying to help you. She seems to be very spiritual, and according to her beliefs she thinks that you will not be saved. The problem is she doesn't realize you may not need saving. I do not think you should cut off your relationship, as it may hurt her very much, because she obviously cares. I think it might be best to sit her down and tell her you understand that she wants you to be saved, but you are already being saved by Buddhism and you still want to be her friend, but you don't want her to preach to you. Maybe you could get her to be quiet enough so that you could make her understand the workings of Buddhism and how it may lessen a person's suffering if they are dedicated to it, and that she must be able to understand not everyone can see things the same as her and she needs to be able to understand that, or else she is going to get frustrated trying to convince the millions of people that aren't Christian to be so, and it may very well hurt her relationships with other friends if she continues to preach and you are scared that she is going to cause suffering to herself because she cannot grasp that others don't believe in God.
It is important to remember she has feelings and she obviously just wants the best for you. Forget that she is preaching, just be compassionate for the fact she cares about you (to reiterate). I don't know if that was as quite as good as I had hoped, but I wish the best for you. Just remember patience with yourself and others is one of the most important things to maintain (it is something very tough to do, and the reason my name is Patient_Wesley is to remind myself to do the very thing I remind you to do).
But Wesley, the Bible is in favor of slavery and of killing those that do not believe as they do. All you have to do is read the Old Testament. I believe these are not the teachings of Christ, but of the Old Testament that is accepted by Christians. According to biblical teaching you can beat your slave to an inch of his life, and if he dies within a short period of time for that beating, all you have to do is pay a fine. My attack was that the Bible taught these things while Buddha never taught violence. http://etori.tripod.com/slave-verses.html
Your post is interesting because what you say is the source of my guilt, that is, what you are saying to me is how I have been taught to believe, and so the reason why i cannot get this person out of my life--the guilt trip. this is nothing against you because i know you mean well, and i thank you for that. but i also wonder if you have read every post here?
she is very spiritual, but at the same time she has always been very pushy. i have told her two times that i did not wish to discuss christianity or be preached to, but she has ignored me. the last time, the 3rd time, was when i told her that i quit a book group because they only read christian books, and the books were preachy. at which point she saw an opening and preached to me again. and when i told her how i felt she didn't answer my email for 4 days and when she did she pretended that nothing was ever said. she has used every opportunity to witness to me before all of this happened, and i get tired of telling her to stop.
i believe that federica is correct in saying that i need to have wise compassion and that cloud is correct when he says that she has ran ramrod over me. something like that. please read the entire thread again.
you don't sit down with this woman and talk. she does the talking; you listen. if you talk; she pretends to not hear by ignoring you. this woman is a manipulator, and while i have known it, i was too busy being too kind and compassionate with her, not wishing to hurt her. i never considered her my friend because i always knew that i was being used but didn't know how to let go of the guilt. This is the method she has always used with me and comes from the book, In Sheep's Clothing:
"Selective Inattention – This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention to or refraining from the behavior you want him to change. In the story of Jenny and Amanda, Jenny tried to tell Amanda she was losing privileges because she was behaving irresponsibly. But Amanda wouldn't listen. Her teachers tried to tell her what she needed to do to improve her grade: but she didn't listen to them either. Actively listening to and heeding the suggestions of someone else are, among other things, acts of submission. And, as you may remember from the story, Amanda is not a girl who submits easily. Determined to let nothing stand in her way and convinced she could eventually "win" most of her power struggles with authority figures through manipulation, Amanda closed her ears. She didn't see any need to listen. From her point of view, she would only have lost some power and control if she submitted herself to the guidance and direction offered by those whom she views as less powerful, clever and capable as herself."
And the book says that you cannot change these people. Believe me, i have tried.
This woman has admitted to being pushy and even says that she doesn't listen to her husband. She doesn't listen to me either.
She has even made my garden hers. I tell her that I don't like a certain plant and she refuses to listen, and it ends up in my yard because I have finally grown tired of saying no. i am surprised i have any sanity left and often wonder if my own teacher thinks i am nuts because i am constantly beside myself with no peace of mind. i dread when she returns from vacation and tries to come back into my life. this spring i am getting rid of the ugly knockout roses she pushed me into getting. i bought some beautiful tea roses. she doesn't care when i tell her i dislike them. there are a list of plants to give away in my attempt to take back my life and my yard.
My own teacher said to walk away from people who are causing me problems, don't even ask who is right or wrong, but i am having a hard time doing either because I feel guilt. and yet i know he is right, oh, so right. he even said when she brings me gifts to either give her a gift back or take it back to her. we didn't address the guilt of ending a friendship that was one sided, but i have here and i am grateful to those that have posted. even you. i came here because i am tired of bothering him with this. all i want to do is sit and study the dharma and meditate in peace. and to thank Buddha for the normal friends that I have and for my not going totally mad.
I agree with Wesley, if she actually wants to still be friends with you I'd say she could be worth keeping around. I try to keep all my friends in good terms as long as I can. This is part of what Buddhism is about, compassion, tolerance, and even getting along with those completely different from you.
If you don't let her actions of trying to convert you piss you off, then it's not a big deal. But people with big egos can be easily angered. Maybe your ego is letting Christianity get the best of you, it can really be turned into good for you, but its not good for me type of thing. It doesn't have to be a big deal. The more she learns that you don't really care about her converting efforts the more likely she will be to maybe change the subject.
But you know, maybe she doesn't have many friends, and maybe Christianity is a huge thing for her, and that's why she talks about it with you so much. If that ticks you off then perhaps you should cease contact. She would get much better results talking about Christianity with Christians.
I am sorry for posting before I had truly understood the whole of the scenario, indeed I only briefly skimmed over the comments. It is best then that you do cut of your relationship with her, but do not feel guilt. If she is causing you such pain, than it is not beneficial for either of you to have a relationship because neither person is benefiting, only suffering. Even a Buddhist needs a limit to how compassionate they are, if they are burning themselves out and no advancement is being attained.
thank you patient. and what you wrote is how i feel, so it was hard to let her go. i often wondered if she had other friends when she said i was her best friend. so i asked at a later time, and she does, and she goes out to lunch with this friend, while i only went with her to pick up heavy grass bags. this friend is a church member. but of course once she wanted to save me, she invited me to church luncheons. and then i listened to them all talk about Jesus.
but this doesn't mean that i don't care about her, just means that it is time to care about myself and hopefully follow through with doing so.
Sometimes it is best to listen to people patiently with mindfulness. Keep a mental eye out for tightening of muscles particularly facial. Observe the feelings arise and cease, look at how your perception is altering how these people appear to you. Basically treat as an active meditation session. Work on detachment and smile at them, and see if you can help compassion arise. All of the above is a extremely difficult challenge. There was a very important Indian yogi/scholar Atisha who travelled to Tibet, his adviser or servant or someone else very close to him (can't remember the details) was extremely annoying. He kept this person close to always challenge himself, lest he lapse into complacency, to allow his compassion to grow.
Sometimes its best to walk away at the appropriate time.
Thao, you say Patient_Wesley doesn't understand the whole scenario because he didn't read everything. But do the people who read everything understand the whole scenario? Or do they only understand what you are writing down?
Please do not use the advice given here as a motivation to defend your choice, be that choice premade or not. The advice is to be used in the context of your relationship with this woman and only you can make a decision for you. None of us here know the full story thus the advice given her does not apply to your exact situation. The advice only works as a guide. In the end the decision is yours and you alone will bear responsability for this choice.
I do not post this to give you guilt about your decision. Because if you make a choice that is based on intelligence and compassion, there will be no guilt. I only post this because I have a feeling - again, the same applies as what I said in the beginning - based on what you wrote down, that you had already made up your mind about this decision and are just looking for a way out of the guilt that comes with it.
So true Supertramp. Even my own perceptions of what is happening can be wrong, and so i can only go with what i feel inside, which is probably why my teacher said to walk away instead of trying to understand the situation. if anyone causes you afflicted emotions walk away unless you can overcome them.
the decision was made after talking to my teacher, but the guilt remained. yes, i am looking for a way out of the guilt, because i believe that my guilt is more than likely pathological. for example, if a person is causing you much anguish and won't listen to you, then why should you feel guilty when dropping them? i do. as a result it makes me feel that i am a bad person. why should i feel guilt when she desires me to help her pick up grass bags that cause me to end up in a chiroprator's office just because i feel bad for her doing it herself when no one else will?
like i said earlier, if i can't be reasoned out of my guilt by coming here and end up with her still in my life, i will go to a therapist as long as it takes for me to get some sense into me.
"...I feel as if it's patronising, condescending, rude, invasive and it's definitely not wanted. You really need to understand 'No' means 'No', and you need to know that sometimes, it's the better part of valour to take 'No' for a full and final answer. You have no idea when enough is enough, do you? You've caused me a great deal of anxiety,upset and anger, and I don't think God would be happy with your achievement, so I hope God forgives you. He's apparently all-merciful, so he's kinder than I am." ___________________________________________________
Federica -- There's an old and plausible Christian prayer that goes, "Dear God, please give him/her a swift kick in the ass!" You brought that prayer to life and I am doing my best to tattoo your words on my brain: If I rot in hell for all eternity, it'll be worth it.
I have had many friends try to do this. I very calmly and politely explain why They should not be doing this for me. If they decide to no longer be my friends, then they were never my friends in the first place. Only the ones who understand and stick by you are true and good friends, and those are hard to find.
Thank you three for these posts. i was back in guilt mode when i came back here just now. Genkako, what you say to tell her would make me feel guilty. Already i had said, "our friendship is depressing me, so i don't wish to be friends." and yet i think you are more wise than me. my husband dealt with her so much better than i. she was trying to tell us what colors to paint the house, because she didn't like the pale yellow with green and white trim that he was doing. My dh said, "I don't mind your suggestions but I will do it my way." but the tone in his voice hushed her up.
That was a fun post federica.
Zayl, do you say goodbye to them? i mean if a person doesn't take No for an answer, it seems like you have to say goodbye when they won't go away.
True that good friends are hard to find. I am grateful for those i have in my life now that understand and accept me as well as stick by me and never cause me grief. Most of my friends that i have, live in a different State now, but we keep in touch. In many ways i have been blessed, but in some ways i still have "negative friend karma." i have had some so-called friends who caused me grief in the last 4 years of living here, and when i tried to talk with them about it, they got angry and ended the friendship. They were not friends obviously. Since then i am of the opinion that a friend just never causes one grief, and if you have to talk to them, instead walk away.
Well, Genkaku, i sent what you said in an email to her.
"Dear ___,
I have fixed up a pkg and put it on your door knob of the soap molds, because I had promised you these things.
But I want you to know this: I still do not wish to be friends, and I am adamant about this. I feel as if you've been patronising, condescending, rude, invasive and it's definitely not wanted. You really need to understand 'No' means 'No', and you need to know that sometimes, it's the better part of valour to take 'No' for a full and final answer. You have no idea when enough is enough, do you?
You've caused me a great deal of anxiety, upset and anger, and I don't think God would be happy with your achievement, so I hope God forgives you. He's apparently all-merciful, so he's kinder than I am.
And so I would like to be free of you, not having you even stop by to apologize. Just know that your apology is already accepted but that I still desire to be free of you. This has not been a fun ride for me.
Hopefully, you will one day realize that being pushy is not a Christian attribute, and a far better one would be for you to respect my wishes by leaving me alone."
Will that work. Maybe not. But at this moment I am glad that i said it. it really was good Genkaku.
Skillful communication takes an enlightened being. So don't be too hard on yourself if you have fears and regrets. And if you are ok with this and can move on then great.
But I think its good to express emotion. And quite hard for me.
All religions speak the truth of the universal peace-loving kindness. And practically every living beings desires for comfort and solace in one way or another. Let go the attachment of dharma in you, and enjoy the company of friendship. More often than not, you would love being lecture on so that their chest of love would discharge, entrenched and joys upon, because of you
Right now i am okay with it. what i was feeling before writing it, was that i have the belief that i have to be perfect, to have perfect skillful speech, and if i can't i am not good enough for religion. so within me, i rebelled.
She needed to hear what Genkaku wrote, what i then claimed as my own, but i still think she will try to wiggle herself back into my life, unless she is now fed up. i would not have been able to say this to her face.
p.s. jeffrey, you are right, skillful communication takes place when one is enlightened. i think i am allowing my past cultish religion to again dictate for me what makes a good person. if you didn't follow all the rules you were kicked out, and i see that my fear is that my teacher will be fed up with me if i don't use skillful methods. sometimes you have to push back hard enough to get someone to listen, but then you have to stand behind it. that is hard to do.
Admittedly, I have not read all the replies, but my opinion is this: Yes, as a practicing Buddhist it would mildly "annoy" me that a friend from another religion would preach to me. I would tell him/her that I respect their beliefs, and that I would appreciate it if they would respect mine. If they continued, I would not discuss religion at all with this person. And if after that, they still continued, then I would not consider them a friend. A friend would respect your beliefs and lay off, plain and simple. That's my take on it.
This is what I think now, but it may not be easy. I have to be firm and consistent with her. I don’t have to out and out reject her, which would make me feel guilty. I don’t even have to tell her what I think about her, which doesn’t work, but which increases my own guilt. If I know deep inside that I don’t want her pushiness in my life, I can be friendly if she stops by, but again, I have to be firm and consistent in saying No and not even go places with her because it puts me in an awkward and trapped position. In time she will give up, even if it takes a year.
Comments
it's about the guilt you feel in severing a relationship with someone who treats you like a doormat and at the same time badgers and preaches at you.
Cool.
That's simple:
The Buddha tells us quite plainly to not consort with fools.
If you look at a wonderful teaching called the Dhammapada, he directly addresses this very issue.
Have a look at this link (the whole Dhammapada is "like fresh mountain water to a thirsty man"....!)
http://www.pathofdhamma.com/fool.html
Says so, right there.
I have a confession to make.
I once said to a person of a similar nature to this woman:
"I'm very happy that you've found what works for you, but I also hope God forgives you for making somebody really unhappy, upset and miserable."
he was astounded.
"When have I ever done that?!?" he asked, incredulously.
"To me. You won't leave me alone, you keep pestering me, and I feel as if it's patronising, condescending, rude, invasive and it's definitely not wanted. You really need to understand 'No' means 'No', and you need to know that sometimes, it's the better part of valour to take 'No' for a full and final answer. You have no idea when enough is enough, do you?
You've caused me a great deal of anxiety,upset and anger, and I don't think God would be happy with your achievement, so I hope God forgives you.
He's apparently all-merciful, so he's kinder than I am."
That wasn't really very nice of me. But the worse thing is, it made me feel really good to see his chin hit his boots.
I now feel bad - about making him feel bad. But I also know that he is the kind of 'fool' the Buddha was referring to.
So I think you need to consider that this friend of yours, is actually what in amateur psychological terms is referred to as an "Emotional Vampire" or Emotional leech".
http://www.helium.com/items/639766-how-to-deal-with-people-who-drain-your-energy
Now you have the 'weaponry' - deal with it positively.
But with Compassion. And not 'Idiot' Compassion either.
First and foremost, if you do not have Wise Compassion for yourself, then you can never develop it for others.
i truly wish that more people had a "whatever floats your boat" attitude, but it's pretty rare to find in a christian. so, it's not surprising to me that your friend sent you this. what you need to try and think about is the intention. surely there is something that you have found in buddhism that makes you feel positive. well, she feels the same about christianity. so you see, you're really just the same... except her religion tells her she must try to save your soul, lol.
also, have you considered the possibility that perhaps even though you didn't mean it that way, she took offense to what you said? it sounds to me like she is trying to explain, "hey, i know some churches are sorta messed up... but they aren't all that way!" the whole letter just seemed slightly defensive to me. whenever someone close to me does something that seems mean or irritating or disrespectful to me, my first action is to retrace my steps and words and think, "is it possible that i said or did something that this person could interpret in a way that would make them react this way?"
But with Compassion. And not 'Idiot' Compassion either.
First and foremost, if you do not have Wise Compassion for yourself, then you can never develop it for others."
Thanks so much. You got to the heart of it. I actually like what you said to that person. Part of it was that I can't stand anyone to preach to me, but all of this would have been easier without guilt. Without guilt she would have been gone long ago.
Thanks for the links. I am reading them now.
Thanks Zombiegirl. She just saw another opening to preach and took it. I was only telling her that I didn't like a certain book because it was preachy and it put down churches like the Lutheran and Catholic, and that I felt that wrong.
Her intentions are good though.
A Buddhist can't always be kind, they can try to be, but kindness can also come through honesty. It takes bravery to be honest, and humility to realize that your own honest point of view is not always right, it's just a genuine offering. So you can offer what is honest, just don't claim it to be absolute. Just because someone claims something to be absolute doesn't mean it is.
"The Bible of Christianity has 1,197 cruel and violent passages [1] in which God, the figure of worship, either commits violent acts or commands acts of violence. In both cases, the Bible is advocating violence.
As it stands now, there are no passages in Buddhist scripture that advocate violence.
Critic of religion Sam Harris writes that "...faith inspires violence in at least two ways. First, people often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it... Second, far greater numbers of people fall into conflict with one another because they define their moral community on the basis of their religious affiliation...""
But I did this after she pretended to not get my loving letters.
I was taught to not argue with anyone but to either let it go or walk away. Harder said than done as you can see above.
I must correct something I said about, but since being a Buddhist is is harder. I was not a Buddhist for the two years that I was trying to get away from her. Still, I had so much guilt. Now it was only that I am trying to do it in a kinder manner and don't think I am doing so well. But I am going to learn Wise Compassion.
Are you really a former monk. What lineage?
i used to live in southern ca. north san diego
and even though i say that i have been a buddhist only 6 months, i did go to a Vietnamese temple for 3 years, but i didn't learn anything. i went because it was peaceful there. and hey, they let you eat after lunch if you are a monk.
"The only reason you have caused me so much guilt and upset, is because I have permitted it to be so.
I'm denying permission from this day onward.
You can either remain in contact with me, and be a friend who I will help as and when it's possible or convenient, providing you stop trying to convert me - or we can end this right now, and I promise you - I will never see or speak to you again. And if you decide the former, I will be happy. But one slightest venture into the second option, and I will cut off all contact.
I trust I make myself completely and unambiguously clear.
Wishing you much Metta and Karuna.
Namaste.
Thao".
Is the best I can come up with.
If that's what you choose to do, that is.
Otherwise, just skip "the Middle-man" - and stop this all now.
I don't trust highly-motivated close-knit groups of people not to abuse others with common and effective thought control techniques. Google TCT.
I "hate" it when people talk about god like they know something "supernatural" AND intend to communicate it. It can't be communicated only experienced; no words allowed they don't work. People who talk like they know do not know. Worse is when they continue to preach to people who have had enough and want them to stop.
Buddha prohibited preaching, didn't he? He promoted avid "adversarial" questioning among those who asked for his teachings. Additionally, if you do not ask a Buddhist about Buddhism the B. keeps his/her mouth shut!
I always want to thank Sherab again for telling me to move away from her. The more that say this the stronger I feel. I know that talking to my friend doesn't help because she won't listen, and yet she will admit to being pushy.
She is on vacation and will be back sometime in March, which is why I wanted to get it in my head beforehand that it is okay to let her go without guilt. She only knows that I don't wish to remain friends. She can't email me, and while she has a cell phone she has not tried to call, but of course i told her i got caller id.
it is strange when i think of it that i believe i was mean to her, and yet i only told her my own beliefs and then told her what i thought of Christianity in relation to how they treated the slaves, etc. and then i told her that i didn't want to be friends. she didn't listen last time i tried to end our friendship, so only time will tell.
You have been very helpful too rainbow.
that's oke, i'm free in my choices not to listen and not to do act, or to listen and to act.
Onto your actual problem: I think you must approach this with some compassion; you are look at how she is trying to convert you rather than that she is trying to help you. She seems to be very spiritual, and according to her beliefs she thinks that you will not be saved. The problem is she doesn't realize you may not need saving. I do not think you should cut off your relationship, as it may hurt her very much, because she obviously cares. I think it might be best to sit her down and tell her you understand that she wants you to be saved, but you are already being saved by Buddhism and you still want to be her friend, but you don't want her to preach to you. Maybe you could get her to be quiet enough so that you could make her understand the workings of Buddhism and how it may lessen a person's suffering if they are dedicated to it, and that she must be able to understand not everyone can see things the same as her and she needs to be able to understand that, or else she is going to get frustrated trying to convince the millions of people that aren't Christian to be so, and it may very well hurt her relationships with other friends if she continues to preach and you are scared that she is going to cause suffering to herself because she cannot grasp that others don't believe in God.
It is important to remember she has feelings and she obviously just wants the best for you. Forget that she is preaching, just be compassionate for the fact she cares about you (to reiterate). I don't know if that was as quite as good as I had hoped, but I wish the best for you. Just remember patience with yourself and others is one of the most important things to maintain (it is something very tough to do, and the reason my name is Patient_Wesley is to remind myself to do the very thing I remind you to do).
Your post is interesting because what you say is the source of my guilt, that is, what you are saying to me is how I have been taught to believe, and so the reason why i cannot get this person out of my life--the guilt trip. this is nothing against you because i know you mean well, and i thank you for that. but i also wonder if you have read every post here?
she is very spiritual, but at the same time she has always been very pushy. i have told her two times that i did not wish to discuss christianity or be preached to, but she has ignored me. the last time, the 3rd time, was when i told her that i quit a book group because they only read christian books, and the books were preachy. at which point she saw an opening and preached to me again. and when i told her how i felt she didn't answer my email for 4 days and when she did she pretended that nothing was ever said. she has used every opportunity to witness to me before all of this happened, and i get tired of telling her to stop.
i believe that federica is correct in saying that i need to have wise compassion and that cloud is correct when he says that she has ran ramrod over me. something like that. please read the entire thread again.
you don't sit down with this woman and talk. she does the talking; you listen. if you talk; she pretends to not hear by ignoring you. this woman is a manipulator, and while i have known it, i was too busy being too kind and compassionate with her, not wishing to hurt her. i never considered her my friend because i always knew that i was being used but didn't know how to let go of the guilt. This is the method she has always used with me and comes from the book, In Sheep's Clothing:
"Selective Inattention – This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention to or refraining from the behavior you want him to change. In the story of Jenny and Amanda, Jenny tried to tell Amanda she was losing privileges because she was behaving irresponsibly. But Amanda wouldn't listen. Her teachers tried to tell her what she needed to do to improve her grade: but she didn't listen to them either. Actively listening to and heeding the suggestions of someone else are, among other things, acts of submission. And, as you may remember from the story, Amanda is not a girl who submits easily. Determined to let nothing stand in her way and convinced she could eventually "win" most of her power struggles with authority figures through manipulation, Amanda closed her ears. She didn't see any need to listen. From her point of view, she would only have lost some power and control if she submitted herself to the guidance and direction offered by those whom she views as less powerful, clever and capable as herself."
And the book says that you cannot change these people. Believe me, i have tried.
This woman has admitted to being pushy and even says that she doesn't listen to her husband. She doesn't listen to me either.
She has even made my garden hers. I tell her that I don't like a certain plant and she refuses to listen, and it ends up in my yard because I have finally grown tired of saying no. i am surprised i have any sanity left and often wonder if my own teacher thinks i am nuts because i am constantly beside myself with no peace of mind. i dread when she returns from vacation and tries to come back into my life. this spring i am getting rid of the ugly knockout roses she pushed me into getting. i bought some beautiful tea roses. she doesn't care when i tell her i dislike them. there are a list of plants to give away in my attempt to take back my life and my yard.
My own teacher said to walk away from people who are causing me problems, don't even ask who is right or wrong, but i am having a hard time doing either because I feel guilt. and yet i know he is right, oh, so right. he even said when she brings me gifts to either give her a gift back or take it back to her. we didn't address the guilt of ending a friendship that was one sided, but i have here and i am grateful to those that have posted. even you. i came here because i am tired of bothering him with this. all i want to do is sit and study the dharma and meditate in peace. and to thank Buddha for the normal friends that I have and for my not going totally mad.
If you don't let her actions of trying to convert you piss you off, then it's not a big deal. But people with big egos can be easily angered. Maybe your ego is letting Christianity get the best of you, it can really be turned into good for you, but its not good for me type of thing. It doesn't have to be a big deal. The more she learns that you don't really care about her converting efforts the more likely she will be to maybe change the subject.
But you know, maybe she doesn't have many friends, and maybe Christianity is a huge thing for her, and that's why she talks about it with you so much. If that ticks you off then perhaps you should cease contact. She would get much better results talking about Christianity with Christians.
but this doesn't mean that i don't care about her, just means that it is time to care about myself and hopefully follow through with doing so.
Sometimes it is best to listen to people patiently with mindfulness. Keep a mental eye out for tightening of muscles particularly facial. Observe the feelings arise and cease, look at how your perception is altering how these people appear to you. Basically treat as an active meditation session. Work on detachment and smile at them, and see if you can help compassion arise. All of the above is a extremely difficult challenge. There was a very important Indian yogi/scholar Atisha who travelled to Tibet, his adviser or servant or someone else very close to him (can't remember the details) was extremely annoying. He kept this person close to always challenge himself, lest he lapse into complacency, to allow his compassion to grow.
Sometimes its best to walk away at the appropriate time.
Cheers, WK
Please do not use the advice given here as a motivation to defend your choice, be that choice premade or not. The advice is to be used in the context of your relationship with this woman and only you can make a decision for you. None of us here know the full story thus the advice given her does not apply to your exact situation. The advice only works as a guide. In the end the decision is yours and you alone will bear responsability for this choice.
I do not post this to give you guilt about your decision. Because if you make a choice that is based on intelligence and compassion, there will be no guilt. I only post this because I have a feeling - again, the same applies as what I said in the beginning - based on what you wrote down, that you had already made up your mind about this decision and are just looking for a way out of the guilt that comes with it.
the decision was made after talking to my teacher, but the guilt remained. yes, i am looking for a way out of the guilt, because i believe that my guilt is more than likely pathological. for example, if a person is causing you much anguish and won't listen to you, then why should you feel guilty when dropping them? i do. as a result it makes me feel that i am a bad person. why should i feel guilt when she desires me to help her pick up grass bags that cause me to end up in a chiroprator's office just because i feel bad for her doing it herself when no one else will?
like i said earlier, if i can't be reasoned out of my guilt by coming here and end up with her still in my life, i will go to a therapist as long as it takes for me to get some sense into me.
You've caused me a great deal of anxiety,upset and anger, and I don't think God would be happy with your achievement, so I hope God forgives you.
He's apparently all-merciful, so he's kinder than I am."
___________________________________________________
Federica -- There's an old and plausible Christian prayer that goes, "Dear God, please give him/her a swift kick in the ass!" You brought that prayer to life and I am doing my best to tattoo your words on my brain: If I rot in hell for all eternity, it'll be worth it.
That was a fun post federica.
Zayl, do you say goodbye to them? i mean if a person doesn't take No for an answer, it seems like you have to say goodbye when they won't go away.
True that good friends are hard to find. I am grateful for those i have in my life now that understand and accept me as well as stick by me and never cause me grief. Most of my friends that i have, live in a different State now, but we keep in touch. In many ways i have been blessed, but in some ways i still have "negative friend karma." i have had some so-called friends who caused me grief in the last 4 years of living here, and when i tried to talk with them about it, they got angry and ended the friendship. They were not friends obviously. Since then i am of the opinion that a friend just never causes one grief, and if you have to talk to them, instead walk away.
"Dear ___,
I have fixed up a pkg and put it on your door knob of the soap molds, because I had promised you these things.
But I want you to know this: I still do not wish to be friends, and I am adamant about this. I feel as if you've been patronising, condescending, rude, invasive and it's definitely not wanted. You really need to understand 'No' means 'No', and you need to know that sometimes, it's the better part of valour to take 'No' for a full and final answer. You have no idea when enough is enough, do you?
You've caused me a great deal of anxiety, upset and anger, and I don't think God would be happy with your achievement, so I hope God forgives you.
He's apparently all-merciful, so he's kinder than I am.
And so I would like to be free of you, not having you even stop by to apologize. Just know that your apology is already accepted but that I still desire to be free of you. This has not been a fun ride for me.
Hopefully, you will one day realize that being pushy is not a Christian attribute, and a far better one would be for you to respect my wishes by leaving me alone."
Will that work. Maybe not. But at this moment I am glad that i said it. it really was good Genkaku.
But I think its good to express emotion. And quite hard for me.
She needed to hear what Genkaku wrote, what i then claimed as my own, but i still think she will try to wiggle herself back into my life, unless she is now fed up. i would not have been able to say this to her face.