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Poker and Zen
Lostie
Veteran
Poker and Zen
Achieving poker mastery with the lessons of Zen Buddhism.
Tournament poker can be very exciting, but like many exciting things in life, it can also be terrifying. There is nothing quite like the thrill of playing at a big money final table. I am often asked how I handle the pressure of playing for such big money. I could give the standard answer of "You have to forget the money and just think about the chips as units." This is certainly true. But, those units are worth a lot of money and forgetting about the money and prestige that comes with winning is easier said than done.
I always had trouble doing this at the critical moments of poker tournaments even as recently as a few years ago. I then started to read some books on Zen Buddhism. Zen has always been associated with the fine arts of flower arranging, calligraphy, and tea making. But there is also quite a tradition of Zen in swordsmanship and archery. Through reading these books and in particular "Zen in the Art of Archery," I have a greater understanding of the process one goes through to master an art form.
There are four basic stages that a player must pass through to achieve poker mastery:
1. Beginner's Passion
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few." Shunryu Suzuki
A journey that might lead to poker mastery must begin with passion. There is a boundless enthusiasm in the novice poker player's attitude. Poker is fun. It is played with no fear. There is a lack of self-consciousness. The game is played with joy.
When I was just starting to play the game, poker was all I wanted to do. I would play the game about 70 hours a week. But, I was not a student of the game. The action, the camaraderie, the cards, and the chips were enough to consume me. I didn't play well and I didn't care. It was all luck, wasn't it? As long as I could ante up, I was happy. I had no fear as my feelings of self-worth were not tied up in my poker results. I didn't fear anyone as I had yet to attach a significant skill factor to the game.
I may not have been learning in a very orderly fashion. But, much like a future pro golfer lays the foundation of his golf career at a young age playing the game poorly. I was acquiring some of the poker skills that are with me today by sheer osmosis. Even though it took me over two years to start winning at $6 limit, my passion for the game gave me the repetitions necessary to take the next step.
2. The Student Emerges
Read the rest: http://www.howardlederer.com/howard-lederer-poker-article9.html
Achieving poker mastery with the lessons of Zen Buddhism.
Tournament poker can be very exciting, but like many exciting things in life, it can also be terrifying. There is nothing quite like the thrill of playing at a big money final table. I am often asked how I handle the pressure of playing for such big money. I could give the standard answer of "You have to forget the money and just think about the chips as units." This is certainly true. But, those units are worth a lot of money and forgetting about the money and prestige that comes with winning is easier said than done.
I always had trouble doing this at the critical moments of poker tournaments even as recently as a few years ago. I then started to read some books on Zen Buddhism. Zen has always been associated with the fine arts of flower arranging, calligraphy, and tea making. But there is also quite a tradition of Zen in swordsmanship and archery. Through reading these books and in particular "Zen in the Art of Archery," I have a greater understanding of the process one goes through to master an art form.
There are four basic stages that a player must pass through to achieve poker mastery:
1. Beginner's Passion
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few." Shunryu Suzuki
A journey that might lead to poker mastery must begin with passion. There is a boundless enthusiasm in the novice poker player's attitude. Poker is fun. It is played with no fear. There is a lack of self-consciousness. The game is played with joy.
When I was just starting to play the game, poker was all I wanted to do. I would play the game about 70 hours a week. But, I was not a student of the game. The action, the camaraderie, the cards, and the chips were enough to consume me. I didn't play well and I didn't care. It was all luck, wasn't it? As long as I could ante up, I was happy. I had no fear as my feelings of self-worth were not tied up in my poker results. I didn't fear anyone as I had yet to attach a significant skill factor to the game.
I may not have been learning in a very orderly fashion. But, much like a future pro golfer lays the foundation of his golf career at a young age playing the game poorly. I was acquiring some of the poker skills that are with me today by sheer osmosis. Even though it took me over two years to start winning at $6 limit, my passion for the game gave me the repetitions necessary to take the next step.
2. The Student Emerges
Read the rest: http://www.howardlederer.com/howard-lederer-poker-article9.html
0
Comments
Zen may help your poker, but i doubt that poker will help your Zen.
Namaste
I disagree.
Poker is a great medium to practice mindfulness, equanimity, loving kindness and the taming the hindrances.
Those of you who play already know this.
To those of you who haven't really played poker, give it a shot at stakes high enough to matter to you. You will see pretty quickly how the strength of your practice is challenged on multiple levels. Greed, fear, aversion, attachment, loss, selfing, pride, anger... it's all there clouding what should ultimately be a mathematical calculation a player must make.
I can't think of any game that tends to elicit such a wide range of emotions, and to do it so easily. Personalities crack and turn inside out. It's as if Mara were at the table, and he who succumbs the most loses the most in the long-run.
Btw, "Elements of Poker," by Tommy Angelo, is a poker instruction book that emphasizes mindfulness. Angelo is a top poker coach who encourages his students to meditate. He also mentions that he views poker as a means of self exploration.
I wasn't very good at it.
So I ended up playing poker and losing money.
That is true though BuddhaJunkie, I found myself getting bored at the table and making stupid decisions, not based on mathematical calculation.
Then again, everybody generally knows the math involved. There are very few like me who were stupid players. Most are average and break even a lot of the time. In order to win constantly, one must have a strategy..
Not really sure how one can have a competitive advantage in online poker.
Oh well, as far as that article goes. It's interesting.
Sweeping the floor can be zen, Shooting arrows can be zen, but why play poker?
To me, doing anything can be Zen, anything.
Most games are based on deception to gain an edge, even in a game of chess.
BTW, the pro poker players do follow a "code of ethics", eg you never slow roll your opponents as a mark of respect and sore losers who throw tantrums are frowned upon. LOL!
The game of poker itself is fine. Just know where to draw the line.
It made me smile the idea that my anti-Buddhist partner is actually learning Zen, LOL
There have been many court cases throughout the world where poker players have attempted to define poker has a sport. However, in the higher courts, each legal case has failed in defining poker as a sport. Each legal case has maintained the chance elements in poker make it gambling.
Over the years, on these Buddhist chatsites, there have been at least one or two people who have had big problems with poker playing, both mentally & financially.
The Buddha himself advised gambling is one of six ways to ruin.
Btw, I've noticed that even Buddhist teachers are willing to be deceptive, as long as it's a good cause. If a game or sport offers a path to personal development, then it too is a good cause, and deception in the course of the game or sport is justified.
So the question becomes: What game serves as good preparation for dealing mindfully with the competition of laylife? I would like to hear alternative games or sports if you think poker is deficient. Poker is superior to chess, in my opinion, precisely because of the element of chance. Chance, and things out of our control, are something that we have to learn to deal with.
Here's poker:
-If you get too greedy you will bluff too much and will lose.
-If you get too fearful or aversive, you will get bluffed too often and will lose.
-If you doubt your skills you will miss out on opportunities and will thus lose.
-If you are restless you will play too many hands and will lose.
-If you are slothful or torporous you will not pay attention and you will lose.
-If you are unmindful you will not be aware of the above hindrances to poker and you will lose.
-If you are not equanimous you will not be able to do the necessary calculations well and you will lose
-If you have too much anger you will feel too much pain when you lose and you will become more unmindful.
-If you are prideful you will become overconfident and will call or bluff too much and you will lose.
-If you are not aware of the impermanence of your chips then losing will cause you much pain.
-If you are too attached to the pot, you will not fold and you will lose.
How are these not great lessons of the path? How can this not cultivate mindfulness in someone who uses it as a means to do so? What other games or sports have these elements?
The problem is that sweeping the floor is too easy.
You may be able to maintain equanimity while sweeping the floor, but what about the high pressure situations in your life? Can you be mindful and equanimous when you've just lost your job and your ex-spouse sues you for the house?
Shouldn't we also find ways to train to be mindful in situations that somewhat simulates the high-stress situations of life?
Your counter-argument may be, "Well, practice mindfulness in real life, and under real-life situations."
Well, the problem with that is that decisions in real life will have far-reaching consequences. Isn't it a good idea to practice mindfulness in a safe, "simulated" environment, where a lapse of mindfulness will not have disastrous consequences? And where such lapses can serve as lessons purchased at an affordable price?
It would be quite disappointing if a life-long meditator were to crack under real-life pressure. Poker is still gambling, that is clear, but it differs from craps or slots because it is a game where you can rationally expect to win if you are good enough. Keep in mind that most sports have some amount of luck involved. It's a matter of degree.
Can you clarify what you mean by "foundation for mindfulness" and why it doesn't apply to poker? And why does it not "follow"?
Why can washing the dishes be a mindful practice but not poker?
By intentionally exposing yourself to a gambling environment where deceit is required, where your skill is used to rob others of money, where addiction is rife ... you are being very 'unskillful' in your Buddhist practice.
And if so, you do not think that games or sports can be used to make one more mindful or equanimous?
This is actually a HUGE misunderstanding. In a typical poker game, especially a home poker game, there is much more honesty and integrity than deceit!
Believe it or not, a game of deception actually requires a high level of integrity and trust, otherwise no one would play due to fear of cheating. And there is a high level of etiquette, or the game would be too upsetting to many people.
You are not "robbing" anyone as long as both parties agree to play according to the the rules of the game. Does Nadal "rob" Federer of money every time he beats him on the tennis court? Do I "rob" someone if I buy their home which later appreciates in value? Am I "robbed" of money if I pay $50 for a daylong retreat and it ends up being hugely disappointing?
By the way, I've met some of the best friends in my life by "robbing" them (and them "robbing" me) of money. This is by no means an anomaly.
First, the poker scene has changed dramatically in the last 10 years, and I would say addiction is not "rife" around the poker tables. Poker is now pretty mainstream and "normal" people of all sorts play the game without being addicted to it any more than activities such as TV, internet or text messaging.
Furthermore, a culture a "intelligent" poker has arisen, and people play as much to exercise their intelligence rather than to just gamble. In fact, the word "gamble" has a negative connotation among serious poker geeks.
Second, the real addicts are probably playing games like 21, slots, craps or some other casino game. Poker takes too much discipline. Certainly no-limit poker does.
Third, at a home game, stakes are much, much lower than at a cardroom. A true addict would not find a $0.10/$0.25 cash game or a $20 buyin tournament fun enough to play.
Fourth, while professional gamblers may go out of their way to play with addicts who are spending their family's bread money, microstakes recreational players are a different breed. I strongly dislike playing with people who exhibit symptoms of addictions since they tend to have other unpleasant qualities. I am probably in the majority in this case.
If we accept what I said above, I don't see the unskillfulness.
So you don't think that competition of any kind can be used to further one's practice?
And let's not turn the Dhamma into the Dogma. Be flexible and soft like water.
BJ: Poker is a great place to test your Buddhist practice of mindfulness, equanimity, loving kindness and the taming the hindrances because, by the very nature of the game, emotions such as greed, fear, aversion, attachment, loss, selfing, pride, anger are easily aroused. If you do not master these emotions successfully, you will lose at poker. Overcoming these in order to win at poker constitute great lessons on the Buddhist path.
Daozen: You admit to the negative emotions poker generates – this should be enough of a warning to you. But more fundamentally, you forget that the whole essence of the Buddhist teaching is suffering, its cause, and its elimination. Understanding this, why would you deliberately put yourself in a situation where both yourself and others will inevitably suffer? You seem to think it is smart, but the smart thing would be to not do it at all.
BJ: Poker is a great way (and the best game) to prepare oneself for dealing mindfully with the intense competition of laylife.
Daozen: Yes, life is full of challenging situations. People do cheat, lie and steal in business affairs, personal relationships and so on. But as the old saying goes: 'two wrongs don't make a right'. Just because there are 'worse' things around, does not justify doing a fundamentally negative activity such as gambling.
BJ: Why can washing the dishes be a mindful practice but not poker?
Daozen: Almost any activity can be done mindfully (depending on your skill) and in most cases, by doing so you will improve the quality of the activity you are doing. This is what I meant by 'Zen may help your poker'. Even theft could, in theory, be done mindfully. But this does not justify stealing. This is what I meant by 'but poker will not help your Zen'.
BJ: Poker is not all about deceit – it is more about honesty, integrity, trust & etiquette.
Daozen: Have you heard of the criminal's code? Many terrible, terrible activities have been done with a veneer of 'integrity'. But you cannot escape the fundamental fact that poker is based on deceit – the very nature of the game is to mislead people as to the quality of your cards via the medium of betting.
BJ: If people agree to the game, it is not “robbing them” of their money when you win.
Daozen: If you have played enough poker, you must know how losing feels. Terrible, right? Even though you knew it was possible when you started playing, it still feels bad when it happens. So you must understand that you are deliberatly trying to a) win money at some else's expense, and b) they are unlikely to feel good about this. It's simply about considering the results of your actions.
BJ: Negotiating a home price? Are you really going to tell the seller what your reserve price is?
Daozen: When buying and selling, money is exchanged for goods or services. In effect, both parties win. When gambling, there is a distinct possibility for many people to lose everything, and a few to gain considerably at their expense.
BJ: Do I "rob" someone if I buy their home which later appreciates in value?
Daozen: No. They have received money, and they are free to invest it in something else which appreciates in value.
BJ: Does Nadal "rob" Federer of money every time he beats him on the tennis court?
Daozen: No. Because unlike stakes in poker, that prize money was not Federer's to begin with.
BJ: Am I "robbed" of money if I pay $50 for a daylong retreat and it ends up being hugely disappointing?
Daozen: No. Unless you were misled about it before going.
BJ: You make great friends playing poker.
Daozen: You can make great friends in jail too. This in itself is not sufficient to justify it as a recommended activity.
BJ: Since poker went mainstream, all kinds of people play it, and it is no more addictive than TV, internet or text messaging.
Daozen: Poker is a form of gambling, and gambling is a highly addictive pastime, as has been widely documented. The fact that there are other addictive pastimes has no relevance to, and does not diminish, poker's harmfully addictive qualities. The fact that your username is budha-“junkie” makes me think perhaps you have an addictive side to your personality too, although maybe you don't like to admit it? I say this as an addictive personality myself. In any case, even if you are not personally at threat of addiction, you are most certainly facilitating others addictions by playing poker.
***
Finally, I will simply say that Buddha clearly denounced gambling,. Poker is gambling. Do you consider yourself wiser than he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling
I got the definition from wiki.
SO is poker still gambling when the outcome becomes certain (say at least 80%-20%) for some individuals?
Even good things like family, food and friends can generate negative emotions if thought of incorrectly. Attractive people can generate negative emotions. Should I drive out all the attractive people in my life?
You still haven't explained why a bluff is the same as stealing.
Do you really think if I win $100 in a poker hand that's the same thing as reaching into someone's purse and taking it? Really?
The difference is that a den of thieves plot to take other people's money. Poker players plot to take each others'... and they mutually agree to do so under strictly followed rules, procedures, etiquette and ethics.
Huge difference. No?
I've felt worse losing at tennis. Am I robbed of my time and energy every time I lose a set? Is tennis unskillful?
You still haven't given your opinion on other games. Because everything you've said that applies to poker applies to other games. No?
Poker players give each other value. They give each other entertainment. I think that's why so many friendships are forged over a poker table.
Similarly, the money in the pot belongs to the winner of the hand.
Same thing applies to poker --As long as you are not mislead about the rules, then you are not considered "robbed" if the game doesn't turn out as well as expected.
You were claiming that a poker player is hurting people at the table and stealing from them. How could you make great friends if you are "hurting" and "stealing" from them? And vice versa?
Of course other addictive past times are relevant because things must be put into perspective. Whether poker is addictive as TV or as addictive as crack cocaine is important. Isn't it?
Ooh had to get personal huh?
In any case, who said I'm denying it? Foruming is pretty addictive, isn't it? Obv...
No, but don't speak on his behalf either.
Let's consider the quote you put above. Do any of these things apply today in the West?
Not really.
i) Not at all. Whiners and "douches" beget hate. People like and respect the guy/gal who can win consistently (and not be a douche about it). Remember, the whole cultural interpretation of poker is different now.
ii) yes I grieve, about the same as I would grieve for getting checkmated or blowing break points in tennis, or someone being rude to me. Perspective.
iii) First, the average poker player is break-even (when not paying rake). Second, even for consistent losers, it's a matter of degree. A typical loser will dump an average of one buyin (say $20) during a home poker night at 0.10/0.25. He would have spent more having dinner then going out for drinks with friends. So from a money perspective, a poker night with the guys isn't problematic at all, and could be economical.
iv) I don't think this applies today. There are lawyers, PhD's and celebrities who openly play poker nowadays. There are college teachers who teach it in class, etc.
v) as I said, I made a lot of friends through poker, and so have other people. And as far as I can tell, non-poker people don't despise poker players.
vi) in my experience, and in those of people I know, this is definitely not true.
So these are observations of the Buddha that are to a large degree culturally dependent. And most of those conditions are absent today.
It is important to keep in mind the Buddha's environment at the time of his teachings.
It seems like in his time there was a huge cultural stigma against gambling. This has major ramifications: in such situations only hardcore gamblers would gamble (with an improper mindset, and with major losses), thereby creating the associated problems and reinforcing the stigma.
In an environment where poker is stigmatized, these things don't apply, or at most, apply much less.
Questions to you: Are you against all games and sports? It seems like you should be based on your arguments.
My partner used to work in a betting shop, and has gambled at poker both IRL and on-line. He has seen time, and time again, how this little harmless and frivolous pastime has evolved into single-minded brain-rotting addiction, and has absolutely ruined lives and destroyed families, and made people homeless. Tennis doesn't do that.
My partner is extremely intelligent, and articulate. He is intellectual, and has a calculating mind. He's achieved a 1st Class Honours degree in Law.
His gambling very nearly ruined him and sent him to the precipice of a nervous breakdown.
He's never, ever dabbled in gambling since then.
You of course, are so skilful and mindful as to your personal commitment to the 'sport' that it couldn't possibly happen to you.
The Buddha's caveat is just as significant today as it ever was, regardless of the passing of time.
Pick and choose what you like and don't like about his teachings, by all means; select what you agree with, and dismiss what you don't as 'out of time and place'.
Nobody 'spoke for' the Buddha. A quotation of his words was given, so the Buddha spoke for himself.
The directive is quite clear. if you choose to selectively ignore it, that's your choice of course.
But don't dismiss it as irrelevant, or non-applicable in the West, because believe me, you could not be more wrong.
Here's a couple excerpts I found on the subject:
"These are the six dangers inherent in compulsive gambling:
1) winning breeds resentment;
2) the loser mourns lost property;
3) savings are lost;
4) one's word carries no weight in a public forum;
5) friends and colleagues display their contempt;
6) and one is not sought after for marriage, since a gambler cannot adequately support a family".
(DN 31)
"If a gambler were to win a fortune on his very first throw his luck would nonetheless be insignificant. It is many times more 'lucky' to conduct oneself wisely with body, speech and mind and after death be reborn in heaven." (M.III, 178).
An exceptionally good prescription for Right Everything.
It's a medicine which will completely transform and heal your life, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to take.
What you fail to realise, Lostie, is that actually, Dhamma is much harder work than Dogma.
Dogma is an absolute. It's restrictive, constrained and compulsory.
Dhamma is a choice.
But yours are the consequences of your choices.
As I have said, one should know where to draw the line. If he can't, then he seriously needs help.
Poker in itself is a game of math, not porn of math.
As for my comments on being "flexible and soft like water", I am talking about a very basic Taoist tenet. From where I come from, Taoist/Buddhist thinking complement each other. The very inclusive doctrines of Buddhism are what makes Buddhism flourishes in and be absorbed into certain cultures. When one becomes stiff like dead wood, it's good time for the person to self-reflect.
Cheers!
Taoism isn't Buddhism.
They might compliment one another in some ways, but they're not the same thing at all, and while I understand your viewpoint, Taoism doesn't completely correlate with Buddhist concepts.
It is as easy for a Taoist to become like stiff wood, I guess, as it is for anyone of any other religious/spiritual/.philosophical persuasion....
Cheers...?
Mine's a pint of Jack Daniels, if you're buying!
i can see both sides of the argument... true, real poker players have a high level of conduct (although, it seems that this just causes another reason for them to get angry when someone does not play as expected).
but also true, poker can cause a lot of suffering. at one of the locations i work in particular, i see a lot of suffering as it seems many people are attempting to gamble to pay the bills. it never seems to work out for them.
the only people that seem to achieve this zen like state of not caring so much whether they win or lose, are the extremely rich people that could care less about money.
i am doubtful that anyone can achieve such zen like states in poker. perhaps in a tournament, but it seems to me that at any given cash table, there are bound to be people who need the money a lot more than others. i think if i were to become the best poker player around and win a high percentage of the time, i would never be able to remove the feeling of guilt at taking other people's money. true, they shouldn't have been gambling if they needed it... true, if i wasn't there, someone else would take their money... but it's also true that i hate causing other people misery no matter how much it really is their fault.
can i ask what is a 'charity poker room'? is it run by charity, or the proceeds go to charity? interesting concept.
your point regarding only rich people seeming to be detached from the game is a valid and interesting one. i have heard it said by many poker players that, for the game to be 'worth it' (by which they mean, entertaining to them), the stakes need to be high enough. for a rich person, low stakes don't matter. they will only get a rush if they are gambling enough for the result (winning or losing) to mean something. this observation is very very revealing about poker's essentially harmful nature, because it shows that the essence of the game is about strong emotional attachment to a result, with the attendant feelings of greed, fear and anger that Buddha so strongly warned against.
i tell every charity person i meet about this. all they have to do is show up and control the cash flow (give chips for money). it should also be noted that they do not have to be a charitable organization, the majority of the "charities" are actually parents from schools raising money for sports or just the schools in general.
very interesting observation on my observation, lol. i have heard the same thing said, btw. i actually do enjoy playing poker, but i do not play for money (just with my friends or for free online sometimes). i understand that it is possible to play just for the fun of the game, but i wonder what the point is of playing with money if this is your intention. there is no doubt that playing with money changes the way that you play, it adds a value to your every move. but if you wish to play with/for money in a manner that removes its value to you, why not just play with fake money that already has no value? this is true love of the game. money is the motivator, imo. it seems silly to try to say that it's not.
You yourself said: "I can't think of any game that tends to elicit such a wide range of emotions, and to do it so easily". You even listed the emotions it so easily arouses, namely: "Greed, fear, aversion, attachment, loss, selfing, pride, anger..."
These emotions are like a shopping list of what Buddhists call klesa - the 'poisons'. Voluntarily exposing yourself to such emotions is, in Buddhist terms, voluntarily poisoning yourself.
If you still cannot see why such an activity is not considered wholesome in the Buddhist tradition - despite being also reminded that Buddha directly warned against gambling - then, as a clearly intelligent person, i can only conclude you are being willfully argumentative. As such i don't think it is helpful for me to keep discussing this with you, although i sincerely wish and believe that sooner or later you will come to acknowledge the harmful chain of causation inherent to poker.
Namaste
No need to be rude... just attack my argument without attacking me, and let the audience decide on their own upon my 'deafness.'
I'm sorry about the suffering your partner went through, and I feel bad for bringing up any bad memories.
Obviously, I think some people are predisposed to gambling addiction, thus gambling puts them at risk.
However, again, everything in context.
People are predisposed to overeating as well, which takes the lives of many people prematurely. Does this mean we advocate against making and eating tasty food?
Some people are predisposed marital infidelity. Does this mean we advocate the separation of the sexes?
I'm not going to blanket condemn poker any more than I will blanket condemn good food, opposite-sex friends, material possessions or alcohol.
Perhaps the Buddha discussed more about gambling in other parts of the cannon. If so, I would genuinely be interested in seeing it. Seriously.
However, regarding the specific passage above, do you really think this quote applies entirely today?
"his word is not relied upon in a court of law"
"he is despised by his friends and associates"
"he is not sought after for matrimony"
Are these statements true for, say, the U.S.? I don't think so.
Your biggest concern was addiction, but I was responding to the specific passage above, in which which addiction was (curiously) not mentioned.
As I said above, I think it's about moderation, like many things.
In any case, sorry about any pain I caused.
I will make another post later regarding "responsible" poker (yes I know...)
Absolutely not, I'm arguing a very important point, if you'll hear me out.
All my arguments were directed at your arguments, some which are weaker than others. Your weak arguments included the topics of:
-Deceit
-Stealing
-Causing emotional pain
I essentially criticized those particular arguments (among others), and I believe my counterarguments to these particular arguments are sound (i.e., it's not really theft, and other games rely on deceit and cause pain, etc.).
I DO respect your last point (and first response to me) about immersing yourself in a poisonous environment. This is your strongest point, imo, so lets focus on that.
(Btw, I believe it is possible for someone who is right (perhaps you) to be right for the wrong reasons, and those wrong reasons should be pushed aside and the right reasons put forth, or, in this case, placed more prominently.)
So, as for your poisonous-environment argument: My response to this was that the environment was within oneself, and when viewed correctly poker is not poisonous any more than money, a beautiful person or a rotting corpse is.
I think this is a very important topic actually, for practice in general. Because I wonder if it is possible to enter a "poisonous" environment and to learn from it more than you would in a non-"poisonous" environment.
I am reminded of how some Buddhists will study dead bodies. Dead bodies can, to an unskillful mind, cause one to cling to their own lives more tenaciously, thus leading to other unwholesomeness. However, with the proper mindset, these Buddhists use the environment of death to overcome the fear of death and realize impermanence (among other reasons).
So I figure poker could be used in the same manner.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not being merely argumentative. And I'm up for listening to how the analog breaks down.
The crux of the issue is whether one should put oneself in a "poisonouns" environment.
Zen will help your poker, but poker may or may not help your Zen, to each his own.
Although no one has written in this thread for a while, I wanted to see other people's opinion. I also practice buddhism and poker. But it seems to be a dillemma. On one hand, I dont want to cause any harm to anyone. But let's be honest, most people play for recreational purposes and not because they are total addicts. Anytime there is some sort of competition, there will always be risks of someone being negatively affected, whether it be loss of material or even "ego". For a layperson it's impossible to avoid it. Example: you own a business, you strive so that it will be successful so it does not close down, but indirectly you're causing "material loss" to your competitors if you're doing well. Just like bjunkie basically when there is any "pleasure" involved there will always be risk of addiction. So where do we draw the line? You can be addicted to anything, unless we all become monks and no longer have to work for a living or have any real material possessions there will always be risks of addiction or direct or indirect competition in society. Anyways sorry for my rambling, was hoping to see if anyone had other thoughts or opinions on the subject, I'm just trying to decide if I should continue or stop playing
Thank you all for your time
I don't think that poker is gambling really, its more like a mutual con game, a game of deceit. I don't take issue with the ethics of it since all players willingly enter into the game. What I did notice for myself is that the act of attempting to decieve your opponents and at times being aggressive in your betting in an attempt to intimidate someone with a weaker hand for usually several hours at a time becomes like a meditation on deceit and aggression. I found these qualities increasing in my own mind away from the poker table.
Buddhism is also more than mindfulness, there is virtue and ethics involved in gaining happiness and removing suffering as well. A sniper uses mindfulness to better his ability to kill people. Mindfulness in itself is just a tool, what makes it useful or not to our happiness is how we use it.
Then somewhere along the line that focus dropped and I just went to play.
Then I would go to win.
Then the neuroses of caring what hands I would get became the object of my analysis while there.
Now I just go to play again.
Gambling is something I've never been interested in and will not subject myself to as I'm just not that type but I am the type with an addictive personality.
Good points were made in this thread on both sides of the matter.
That said, I have $250 on Obama winning on Tuesday, at odds of about 3:2 in favor.
Then you become a mirror for everyone else.
They see their struggle and you see how they all desire to win.
And here you are not giving a damn.
The Ten Precepts
l. I take up the way of not killing.
2. I take up the way of not stealing.
3. I take up the way of not misusing sex.
4. I take up the way of not speaking falsely.
5. I take up the way of not using drink or drugs.
6. I take up the way of not discussing faults of others.
7. I take up the way of not praising myself while abusing others.
8. I take up the way of not sparing the Dharma assets.
9. I take up the way of not indulging in anger.
l0. I take up the way of not slandering the Three Treasures.
so you develop Zen in the Art of watching Porn without attachment
Gambling ones way to equanimity
Killing with one mindedness (that one is already available)
Eventually you have no Buddhism
maitriya help us . . .
I guess we all know what is what . . .
But playing... Not professionally but you know... Trying to make an income off it or whatever (which is totally doable if you're good enough) is kinda soul sucking.
My husband played poker for years and made thousands of dollars. He didn't go pro, but he was one of the best. Even though it would be nice to have a couple of thousand extra dollars a month lying around, he had to give it up because it just feels so nasty. That's how not worth it it is.
We have loads of those "zen of poker" books and they'll teach you the game, even how to win, but they won't teach you zen.