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You're not a Stream-Winner, get over yourself!
GuyC
Veteran
Hi All,
I have noticed a trend where people seem to insinuate that they have entered the stream. They might not claim it directly (thought occassionally they do), but they will dance around the subject in lots of different threads, going on and on about Anatta and how they've had some life changing insight...come on guys, get real...I have done this myself, I know what's going on. Stop playing games!
The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not a Stream-Winner, the sooner you can start to truly practice the Path.
Note to mods: The reason why I post this topic is not to stir people up or to pick a fight. I say it with the sincere intention of trying to help others who may have fallen into, what I perceive to be, a common trap which I have fallen into myself. If I reach just one person with this thread then mission accomplished!
Metta,
Guy
I have noticed a trend where people seem to insinuate that they have entered the stream. They might not claim it directly (thought occassionally they do), but they will dance around the subject in lots of different threads, going on and on about Anatta and how they've had some life changing insight...come on guys, get real...I have done this myself, I know what's going on. Stop playing games!
The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not a Stream-Winner, the sooner you can start to truly practice the Path.
Note to mods: The reason why I post this topic is not to stir people up or to pick a fight. I say it with the sincere intention of trying to help others who may have fallen into, what I perceive to be, a common trap which I have fallen into myself. If I reach just one person with this thread then mission accomplished!
Metta,
Guy
0
Comments
people get into their cars, drive to the airport and go to check in for their flight to Nibbana only to find they've haven't got their passport...
They find out sooner or later.
It is also possible that I am the one playing games. Maybe the perceived self-delusion that I am seeing in others is actually just something I am projecting onto them.
Although I try to help others learn from my mistakes, generally speaking it is probably best for me to focus on purifying my own mind and let others be; give them the benefit of the doubt. Though I do believe there is benefit in trying to help others to grow spiritually it is sometimes difficult to gauge, and often only visible in hindsight, as to whether or not the attempt was worth it.
Oh well, I took a chance with this thread, time will tell if it was worth it.
Metta,
Guy
A Stream-Winner, according to Theravada Buddhism, is the first of four stages of enlightenment (the forth stage, Arahantship, being the goal of Theravada Buddhism). The Stream-Winner has supposedly cut off three of ten fetters which block one from full enlightenment.
These three fetters which the Stream-Winner has irreversibly removed are (as I understand them, and please do not accept my understanding as definitive):
1) identification with the five aggregates (body, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness) as a "self" or part of a "self" or belonging to a "self" or as a "self" somehow being part of these aggregates.
2) doubt about whether or not the Buddha was fully enlightened
3) belief that rites and rituals, in and of themselves, will lead to enlightenment
Some of the benefits of being a Stream-Winner include:
1) Inability to be reborn in the "lower realms" (animal, ghost and hell realms). Assured of being reborn only as either a human being or a deva (heavenly being).
2) Assured of enlightenment within 7 lifetimes at most.
3) Inability to regress on the Eightfold Path to the state of "putthujana" (ordinary worldling).
It is easier to tell if someone is not truly enlightened than it is to prove that someone is truly enlightened. This is because it is possible to "fake" the outward signs of an enlightened being while still having an impure mind.
If a person gets angry, for instance, they cannot be fully enlightened, since a fully enlightened being is free from ill-will. They may, however, be a stream-enterer.
If they question whether or not the Buddha was fully enlightened or if enlightenment is even possible, they cannot be a stream winner, for example.
Someone could "fake" unshakeable faith in the Buddha and may even convince themselves of this. They may be convinced that they have "seen through" the five aggregates as being in some way connected to a "self", which is relatively easy on an intellectual level, but I believe it takes more than simple reasoning to enter the stream. The same can be said of "rites and rituals".
...So it can be tricky to tell.
Metta,
Guy
...but who cares ? Personally I don't practice to get awarded labels, lol !
:buck:
Interesting topic. You talk about the causes and the results of Stream Winning, but do not describe what it is? I've seen some of these teachings as well and they don't say much. I'm not particularly interested in Stream Winning/Entry as a topic but are interested in what is described as Luminosity in my tradition and wonder at the association there. But back onto your topic- What is the experience of a Stream Winner? What are the signs? And how would anyone be able to know if someone else has achieved it? IMO to achieve this state you would have to have a strong belief that it was achievable. If you had a strong belief that it was achievable, and you believed that it was possible for yourself, then you would also believe that others have achieved it as well. On the other hand, if you truly believed that this state is not possible then you would not believe that it is possible for others, and by default believe that others are deceived, deluded, ignorant.... If you believed that you had achieved this yourself, but others had not, then you'd likely still have a skewed self focused view which would possible imply misunderstanding, but maybe not complete error. If our inward looking shows that we don't really believe then maybe that's where our meditation should be centred, irrespective or any achievement of lack of achievement of others. Maybe we're hung up on not being gullible, or our ego has projected us as the protector of the gullible?
Just some thoughts,
Cheers, WK
So, is it really helpful to just randomly prick balloons? Who knows what kind of righteous esteem is built from the detachment that kind of self attribution can make. Certainly, there is little reason to discredit other's perceptions, especially at a non-specific level.
Get through the first 16 insights and you are there.
Is the reason you believe it to be so difficult to get because you believe it is some kind of mystical achievement?
There are plenty of stream winners, work hard and you can achieve it relatively quickly (year(s), not necessarily decades).
plenty of them here http://www.dharmaoverground.org/
here is a little book that will clarify the process for you if you do believe it is some kind of impossible to achieve and/or mystical thing.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YnedD2Jj3IIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:"Mahasi+Sayadaw"&hl=en&ei=nnhlTYGUMYzAtge73KyqBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
ps: me no stream winner yet, me working hard to be stream-enterer by the end of this year tho
To those who claim that we should have no goals in Buddhism, or that setting goals somewhat lessen the "nobility" of the practice. I think those are wildly missing the mark.
yes, goal oriented practice is perfectly in line with Buddhism, may i remind you of the Bodhisattva vows? "May I attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings"
I am strongly doubting the purity of my intention when I started this thread. While I appreciate the opinions offered on this subject, and perhaps reading them has led me to further question the origins of this thread (namely my own mental processes), the truth is undeniable:
I am forced to admit that I know virtually nothing.
How can I possibly pretend to know how enlightened another person may or may not be?
I can't.
Even if I am "correct", that there really is this phenomena where people mistakenly believe they are Stream-Enterers, is it really "right" to "randomly burst balloons" as Matt put it?
I don't know.
Will doing so help others overcome delusion?
I don't know.
Will trying to point out what I perceive as delusion in other's contribute to my own practice in any way?
Probably not.
Was this entire thread started because of delusion (namely my own)?
I am beginning to think so.
Well, I guess in an unexpected way it has contributed to my practice in further proving how tricky this thing called "delusion" really is. I hope that it has been benefical to others also, but I will try to avoid making the mistake of pretending to know what is benefical for others in the future.
Metta,
Guy
If this has happened to you, means you had this insight.
If that has happened to you, means you had that insight...
Same with concentration meditation.
It's pretty easy to know which Jhanas you experienced if you read a description of them.
the book "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" is a great book if you want to diagnose where you are on the path.
(free book of course) http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB
The point of learning about the path on a technical point of view and diagnosing where you are is to simply avoid confusion. Avoid the delusions of believing you have this or that achievements; but also avoid behind stucked somewhere, and avoid confusion about the interpretation of your own experience.
For example, many crossed the fourth insight, Arising and passing away.
But without a good understanding of the path, many of them believe that they are now enlighten. (we've seen many of them here). And then they are surprised that they feel depressed a couple week after.
With a better understanding of the path, they could easily recognize what happened to them, and simply continue to progress. As opposed to sometimes wasting years of their lives trying to chase that state of mind again.
Metta,
Guy
Metta,
Guy
Ha! C, you know a lot!
The real place I would consider it helpful for you to look would be the difference between noticing something, and what to do with what you're noticing. You notice people make interesting attributions to themselves, but what is most skillful to do with those observations?
For instance, someone saying "I am enlightened" is enigmatic, because "I" cannot be attributed to an enlightened point of view. However, what to do with such an interesting enigma? Often, nothing, feel love for your sister or brother expressing themselves in whatever way they do... often its simply language. What they know as enlightenment is not really how we might describe it... what they're really saying is "I am happy" or "I feel connected" or "I feel at peace". And good for them!
With warmth,
Matt
Thanks very much for your thoughtful and kind post.
Metta (really...not just saying it),
Guy
Just an afterthought I think part of loving kindness is pausing from self-reaction and instead perceiving where they are coming from. By seeing the humanity of them we naturally respond better. Blah blah blah, sign me up.
Thanks for your comment Jeffrey!
Metta,
Guy
I feel this happens in two steps. The first is knowing that we don't know for sure what we see. Every observation we make is somewhere between a penetrating, correct vision and bewildered, self-centric projection. We might think we know what we are seeing there, but do we really? Is that a dumb jerk over there, or a bodhisattva acting like a jerk to help us detach from judging people? This view... this unrelenting question mark, in my opinion, keeps us humble and curious. Asking instead of declaring. Treading softly instead of steamrolling and decrying another's view. Letting this wonder float in our minds, like it is something alive... remembering that our question needs to remain active because what we are observing is active, ever changing, empty of concrete qualities.
Second, when you are responding, why are you saying what you are saying? Is it because you are there as a well rooted, compassionate witness, encouraging your loved ones? Or, are you trying to pop the egoic bullcrap of your ignorant moron neighbors because they think that they are all that and a bottle of cheese wiz?
If you're not sure, then don't type/speak/act. Or, type it out and read it. Is that what you would say to your dearest love? Your wife? Your baby daughter? Do you think someone will read it and be better off? Is that what your heart has to offer your oldest and best friend?
I would consider questions along this line to be natural ways of cultivating metta through our thoughts and speech. Remember that its not about being perfectly loving, but really taking the time to use our compassion as the motivation for our actions. Its there... right there! Wanting to get out!
With metta,
Matt
Let go that which you can't control - and most of that too.
[grammar and syntax fail]
But I think you are right, for the most part, especially when advice/criticism is unasked for [even more especially when the advice is directed at no particular person (even more-er especially on the internet, like you say)], it is usually not the right time to give it.
[/grammar and syntax fail]
Metta,
Guy
But I could.....
:grr:
I don't think that anyone here is that delicate. It was a good observation and worth getting out. After all we try and act ethically on one hand, but on the other hand the path should develop resilience. I think it was in Sogyal RInpoche's book where he described a lama who through rocks at his students to wake them up. I like Master Ooguay's quote in Kung Fu Panda: "there are no accidents!", though the Buddhist rejoinder would be "there are only causes and conditions".
Cheers, WK
e.g. Therigata: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/index.html
Metta,
Guy
If you need to ask, you are not.
No anger, fear , regrets, no attachment.
Definitely being a stream enter doesn't protect us from praise and blame. Look how the buddha is praised and blamed!