Would You Choose Rebirth If You Had The Option Not To?

Dakini

If you reached an enlightened state and had the choice not to be reborn, what would you choose? Would you return in human form to help humanity, or opt out of the cycle of rebirth?
(Obviously, this is a question for those who believe in rebirth. Those who don't believe in rebirth may opt out of the discussion. :rolleyes: )

Cloud

If I had the option to come back, and knew that in coming back I would be able to help people (for sure), then yes.

Dakini

Ah, so if your future rebirth came with a guarantee that you'd have the wherewithal to help people, then you'd say yes. Otherwise, if it meant mucking around, trying to achieve something in spite of corruption, jealousy, and other negativity, you'd say no? I can relate to that.

Cloud

If coming back meant I'd just be in the same situation, probably having another life of struggling and strife and maybe not even finding Buddhism, then that would be no good. If I somehow had the magical enlightenment power to choose my rebirth and remember what I had learned, then sure that'd be great. I just don't see how that even works, much less have any evidence of it.

And so for now, I'd like to be able to do whatever I can with what time I have. You know?

Dakini

And so for now, I'd like to be able to do whatever I can with what time I have. You know?

For sure. Me, too. I used to think I'd come back to help people, like how can you refuse, while people are suffering? But I dunno...lately I've been thinking I might not be too keen on dealing with all the negativity on this planet. I like your answer, it's a Middle Way of sorts. If someone were guaranteed the ability, influence, whatever it takes, to really accomplish Good Stuff on behalf of humanity, who WOULDN'T go for it? Somehow....it makes the choice too easy, you know? if it comes with a guarantee.

Cloud

Maybe some day I'll have a clue what that's all about. For now I don't see birth and death, or what is reborn, so there's more to figure out (if there's more to figure out).

Vincenzi

It is possible to chose a rebirth after a certain point in the path. But that's not an enlightenment power! it comes before. chosing rebriths requires: bodhisattva vow, samma-samadhi, sama-diṭṭhi, and the paramitas virja and ksanti.

I will say yes, for the purpose of helping others.

aMatt

Yes, of course... could you leave others behind willfully?

Vincenzi

do you mean others as in the ones in the ending life, or others as in the ones you are going to help (eventually) in other lives?

hermitwin

Buddha did not choose rebirth.
Better follow his footstep rather than some fictitious 'whatever' boddhisatvas.

compassionate_warrior

Yes, of course... could you leave others behind willfully?

@ Vincenzi, I think he means, how could one decide otherwise? Our altruism requires that we choose to return.

yiming

If you reached an enlightened state and had the choice not to be reborn, what would you choose? Would you return in human form to help humanity, or opt out of the cycle of rebirth?

This sounds like a television game show which offers large cash prizes for correctly answering a series of randomised multiple-choice questions of increasing difficulty. If you opt for rebirth, then you are not content and going for more of the jackpot. Isn't that evidence of greed?

aMatt

Buddha did not choose rebirth.
Better follow his footstep rather than some fictitious 'whatever' boddhisatvas.

Follow what? I don't inherit my path from anything except my previous moments. I would choose to stay because there is no other choice that makes any sense to me.

We always run back into the burning building... there are kids in there. In here.

hermitwin

I dont understand what you say.

federica

Buddha did not choose rebirth.
Better follow his footstep rather than some fictitious 'whatever' boddhisatvas.

The Buddha would have chosen re-birth, had Ananda taken the hint and begged him to return. he gave this opportunity to his cousin and closest disciple, but Ananda never took the opportunity. So the Buddha passed into Parinibbana.
But had he been asked to take the option, apparently, he would have done....

DhammaDhatu

3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it***. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent.

***Kappam va tittheyya kappavasesam va.

Comy. takes kappa not as "world-period" or "aeon," but as ayu-kappa, "life span," and explains avasesa (usually "remainder") by "in excess."

Comy.: "He may stay alive completing the life span pertaining to men at the given time. (Sub. Comy.: the maximum life span.) Kappavasesa: 'in excess' (atireka), i.e., more or less above the hundred years said to be the normally highest life expectation."

Among the numerous meanings of the word kappa, there is, in fact, that of time in general (kala) and not only the duration of an aeon; but the meaning "life span" seems to have been ascribed to it only in this passage. Also, the meaning "in excess" for avasesa (usually "remainder") is unusual.

The four constituents of psychic power (iddhipada) are concentration due to zeal, energy, purity of mind, and investigation..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#fnt-21

SherabDorje

Buddha did not choose rebirth.
Better follow his footstep rather than some fictitious 'whatever' boddhisatvas.

There are some of us that believe very strongly in bodhisattvas. You could respect that a little more. And you could spell it right.

genkaku

Obviously, this is a question for those who believe in rebirth.
___________________________

Equally obviously this is a question for those who believe it is possible to "reach and enlightened state."

aMatt

Obviously, this is a question for those who believe in rebirth.

I don't think question has anything to do with a belief in rebirth, but is a question of simple generosity and simple compassion.

I dont understand what you say.

I wonder if that is because you spend your time in other ways than listening.

Cinorjer

Would I choose to be reincarnated if I had a choice? No. I've had my dance. I've tried to help people and had some fun and made some big mistakes, and it's been grand. Overall, it's been a marvelous roller coaster ride and I'm glad I was part of it. But I've done that, been there, bought the tee shirt.

The world is crowded enough, let someone else have a shot at living on this world. Maybe he or she will manage to help people in ways I cannot.

fivebells

Reaching an enlightened state is not that rare. Choosing to be reborn from there is all too common, although it usually has more to do with momentum than helping others.

hermitwin

'The Buddha would have chosen re-birth, had Ananda taken the hint and begged him to return. he gave this opportunity to his cousin and closest disciple, but Ananda never took the opportunity. So the Buddha passed into Parinibbana.
But had he been asked to take the option, apparently, he would have done.... '

Are you serious? Buddha based his decision on whether Ananda said 'please'
or not?

Kartari

Are you serious? Buddha based his decision on whether Ananda said 'please' or not?

Lol. He repeated himself a few times even, and Ananda still didn't get the hint. Sounds like a comedy routine...

Buddha: "I can come back to help everyone further, you know?"

Ananda: "."

Buddha: (maybe he didn't hear me...) "I said, I could come back to help everyone out more, you know?"

Ananda: (what lovely flowers...) "."

Buddha: (this guy is really dense... has he heard nothing of my sermons on present moment awareness?!) "Hey! Yo, Ananda! Over here!" (snaps his fingers) "I SAID, I COULD COME BACK to aid all sentient beings further, if someone over here, someone right in front of me, like YOU for instance, were to ASK me to..."

Ananda: "Huh? Did you say something, lord Buddha?"

Buddha: "Oh screw it all, I'm done!"

Roger

Yeah, I would probably do it. Though the "I" part is confusing. After getting 'released' from this human form I'm not sure how much "I" is left to decide. What is this "I" that will be making the decision to be reborn?

Then again, there aren't very many enlightened beings around. None in my neighborhood! So, that means what? Lots of enlightened beings choose NOT to come back? Hummmm..., maybe it's not a big deal. Maybe there are other more attractive non-'self'-indulgent choices?!

Also? From an Infinite Mind perspective, maybe the human realm is like a bunch of insects or worms in the garden: it's nice to help them, not kill them, but gotta be practical sometimes and quit trying to look after their well being. Move on from the garden and find another hobby.

Actually, "I'd" choose to get reborn into a higher form of life than humans. A form of life which has a better chance of reaching it fullest potential. Would be more gratifying than dealing with a bunch of messed up organisms driven by and trying to overcome "survival of the fittest" DNA.

Yup! The damn genes are what's messing the human realm up. THEY are making this human world suck. The genes care only about themselves! They care nothing about the biological forms in which they propagate.

Couldn't find a "Happy RE-Birthday" emoticon.

SherabDorje

DD gave the sutra reference above. It strikes me as odd that the decision apparently depended on Ananda asking, but again, DD gave the sutra reference above with a link.

Vincenzi

@SherabDorje

maybe it was a test to see if others will listen...

StaticToybox

I don't think I can give an honest answer to that question until I reach that point (if ever).

Dakini

I don't think question has anything to do with a belief in rebirth, but is a question of simple generosity and simple compassion.

Thanks, I appreciate your attitude, aMatt. I was only hoping to avoid a debate about whether the Buddha taught rebirth.

Then again, there aren't very many enlightened beings around. None in my neighborhood!

How do you know? Sometimes they disguise themselves as humble laborers, dispised minorities, etc., to see if people are paying attention. They're everywhere, Rog. Maybe your neighbor's gardener, or the nurse at the local school. Could be anyone.

Roger

Then again, there aren't very many enlightened beings around. None in my neighborhood!

How do you know? Sometimes they disguise themselves as humble laborers, dispised minorities, etc., to see if people are paying attention. They're everywhere, Rog. Maybe your neighbor's gardener, or the nurse at the local school. Could be anyone.

You are correct sir. Good point. Maybe it _is_ an honor to come back into the human realm after becoming a fully enlightened being. I'll put an add on "meetup.com."

On a related note: However I wish there were more public Fully Enlightened Being type Buddhists around town. Like a legislator, or a Sheriff, or even a high school principle could be an out-of-the-closet Buddhists in my community. Yes, even normal everyday enlightenment-seeking Buddhists would be good (oops! going off topic warning). If so, more people would have chance to deal effectively with negative thinking, suffering, and happiness.

Dakini

Someone doesn't have to be a Buddhist to be a returned bodhisattva or other enlightened being. If we choose to return, it won't necessarily be as Buddhists. Anyone can be devoted to ending suffering. I've read about amazing school principals, for ex. (but probably not in your community), who turn failing schools around against all odds. But yeah, I take your point. It seems they don't often choose to come back in high-profile service positions. Not that I would know for sure...

Kunga

This is difficult for me. See the thing is, I think its really difficult to "help people". That's always been my main motivation for everything from spirituality to carrear to friendships. But I think I'm starting to come to the realization that helping people is just really, really, really difficult. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. But it seems like most people don't even know what they want - how are we suppose to? I'm hoping to live a life of relative quite and stillness, and just encourage others to do the same. But its really hard getting people to do something they don't want to do. Sometimes i dont feel like i can even help myself. Arrrgh i dont know. Does anyone out there feel like they're able to consistenly make a difference in other people's lives???

Cloud

@Kunga, When people are struggling, be the one to offer an alternative view, a way of thinking that they may overlook because they are not seeing things as they are. Help people by being yourself, and by your speech and actions they will see that there is another way to be.

compassionate_warrior

This is difficult for me. See the thing is, I think its really difficult to "help people"

Good point, Kunga. I haven't weighed in on this thread because the question isn't as simple as it sounds. I think one can help people if one is selective about the "projects" one takes on. It /is/ possible to make a positive difference in someone's life, but not as often as we might like to think. People in the helping professions, like therapists, doctors, nurses, can do so more consistently than the average person, I would think. That leaves the rest of us... Your question, Kunga, could be the subject of its own thread.

DhammaDhatu

DD gave the sutra reference above. It strikes me as odd that the decision apparently depended on Ananda asking, but again, DD gave the sutra reference above with a link.

Possibly read the sutta more carefully, reading the footnote rather than the translation. Many Pali translations are way off the mark. As the footnote states, the Buddha said he could have lived longer. The sutta is not about coming back for further lifetimes.

With metta

hermitwin

Buddha taught us how to end the cycle of endless suffering.
There was no mention of helping others to reach enlightenment as a bodisatta.
The only use of the term boddisatta is stories about Buddha's previous live before he was enlightened.
Boddisatta ideal was a later invention. How about inventing a super boddi ideal, saving the whole universe or staying until the universe is emptiness. My point is we can invent anything.
The way, I see it, many people are very attracted by this idea that I am so compassionate, more compassionate than Buddha, so I want to save the whole world.
Why didnt Buddha do it?
I would suggest that each person has to do the hard work to reach enlightenment.
No matter how many bodi vows you take.
Each person will reach enlightenment in their own time based on their efforts & karma. Some will not reach enlightenment. Just as some will not graduate from high school.
Dont think too highly of ourselves and about our ability to help others.
Be real, we can only help others to a certain extent.
Reaching enlightenment for yourself is hard enough already.

aMatt

See the thing is, I think its really difficult to "help people".

It is easy to help people, it is nearly impossible to change people. If you pick someone up off the ground, you help them. If you try to tell them to walk differently, you're trying to change them.

I wonder why so many of us try to change others, or think that the only way to help others is by getting them to act differently.

Vincenzi

This is difficult for me. See the thing is, I think its really difficult to "help people". That's always been my main motivation for everything from spirituality to carrear to friendships. But I think I'm starting to come to the realization that helping people is just really, really, really difficult. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. But it seems like most people don't even know what they want - how are we suppose to? I'm hoping to live a life of relative quite and stillness, and just encourage others to do the same. But its really hard getting people to do something they don't want to do. Sometimes i dont feel like i can even help myself. Arrrgh i dont know. Does anyone out there feel like they're able to consistenly make a difference in other people's lives???

the best bet is to help others that are already on a good path... and in this case the help goes both ways.

Vincenzi

@hermitwin
the concept of Bodhisattva is one of the main contributions of Mahayana to Buddhism.
what if it is a later development? Does that make it invalid?

StaticToybox

This is difficult for me. See the thing is, I think its really difficult to "help people". That's always been my main motivation for everything from spirituality to carrear to friendships. But I think I'm starting to come to the realization that helping people is just really, really, really difficult. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. But it seems like most people don't even know what they want - how are we suppose to? I'm hoping to live a life of relative quite and stillness, and just encourage others to do the same. But its really hard getting people to do something they don't want to do. Sometimes i dont feel like i can even help myself. Arrrgh i dont know. Does anyone out there feel like they're able to consistenly make a difference in other people's lives???

the best bet is to help others that are already on a good path... and in this case the help goes both ways.

It is those already on a good path who least need the help. To borrow an example from another religion one of Jesus' final acts before dying was to invite the thief to join him in paradise. He understood that while it might be harder to love the sinner the sinner needs the love all the more.

Dakini

As the footnote states, the Buddha said he could have lived longer. The sutta is not about coming back for further lifetimes.

Wasn't he dying of an ailment? How could he have lived longer?

the best bet is to help others that are already on a good path... and in this case the help goes both ways.

It is those already on a good path who least need the help. To borrow an example from another religion one of Jesus' final acts before dying was to invite the thief to join him in paradise. He understood that while it might be harder to love the sinner the sinner needs the love all the more.

THIS is an interesting discussion!
I was about to agree with Vincenzi, until I read Toybox's post. Now I have to stop and think. Maybe if we were as realized as Jesus or the Buddha, we could take all manner of "sinners"/lost souls under our wing. But for those of us a bit farther behind on the path than these great teachers, Vincenzi's point might be the more fruitful (skillful) choice.

Dakini

But I think we can help anyone simply by showing compassion. There's a difference between "help" and "compassion". What Jesus was doing in the above example was practicing compassion and/or forgiveness.

taiyaki

it's important to note that christian notions of compassion verse buddhist notions of compassion are quite different.
christian notions are tied up with emotions, etc. where as buddhist notions of compassion come from seeing the emptiness in everyone. thus allowing people as they are. in whatever circumstance or condition. just seeing the emptiness of that. that is where buddhist notions of compassion arise from.

idk. someone might find this interesting.

compassionate_warrior

idk. someone might find this interesting.

I think it's interesting. I've never heard that. What does "allowing people as they are" mean, exactly? It sounds like no-helping, so I must be missing something.

taiyaki

first you need to see the emptiness within yourself. then you see the emptiness within others.

emptiness meaning they lack inherent qualities. for example my friend may seem annoying, but they are not inherently annoying. they are just empty. so you view people as empty and thus whatever they are. annoying. friendly. whatever. just as they are. they are perfect. even though we may view them otherwise. we must realize that we are projecting ideas onto the emptiness, which they are.

though people can be irritating, we must understand that they have potentiality to be anything. people are just empty. meaning they have infinite potential to be anything and they are nothing.

so when you view people as an emptiness. not philosophically or intellectually. when we just view them from our realizations and insights into the true nature of reality we allow them to be as they are.

that is compassion. that is freedom. that is the middle way. it is not attaching to what they are. seeing their emptiness. and not even attaching to that emptiness by allowing them to be whatever they are.

compassionate_warrior

This doesn't address situations like homelessness or tutoring a disadvantaged child, or advising someone on job interview skills, whatever. Giving someone a boost in some way.

taiyaki

you do what is most obvious given the circumstance at hand.

and you don't allow ideology to inform all your decisions. for i find that it's our belief systems prevent us from actually taking action when confronted with a situation.

see the emptiness. do what you can in the situation at hand.

see a homeless person, buy them dinner/lunch. talk to them. help them out.
help a disadvantaged child. knowing that they are empty as well. so they have potential to grow and become advantageous.
helping someone with a job interview. understand they have full potential to be anything they want to be. nothing is preventing them except their own ideas of self. realize they are empty and have infinite potential.

you realize the perfection in everyone all while accepting that we all can do some work. we all can change some things here and there. Ultimately we are empty (potential) and relatively we have work to do.

AbsolutionOfSelf

I can only speak for myself rather than on what is right or wrong for everyone else. I would return. If there is no separate "I" to speak of how could I not?

I agree with the analogy of the children in the burning building. I think anyone with empathy and less attachment to the end result of the "self" would come back to save the rest.

If you are truly enlightened I am not sure if there is a choice to make.

Cloud

I think you'd have to be enlightened to do it, AOS. Otherwise... how do you do it? I don't think the run-of-the-mill person can just say "okay I'm going to come back and help people!", and make it magically happen. One has to know the mind and the nature of all phenomena inside out. We have no special control of anything, it would have to be something that becomes clear and perhaps can be manipulated to the enlightened mind.

Since I don't know, I'm more concerned about helping people in the here-and-now as well as making the conditions for the future (for future lives to be born into) better overall, as best I can. If I have the option of coming back, knowing that I can continue to help people, you bet your ass I would. I just don't see it right now, so I can't be bothered with worrying about something that isn't evident at this moment.

Thoughts like "if you are truly enlightened I am not sure if there is a choice to make" are the kind that scare people of attaining enlightenment, or that scared people have. Enlightenment is seeing reality clearly, the perfect balance of wisdom and compassion. If there's anyone that can help this world it's enlightened beings. If there was a way to come back, they would generate the bodhicitta to return for all sentient beings (as they always do the right thing), fettering themselves to the round of rebirths by choice. They wouldn't be "exempt" from the possibility of helping others, as if enlightenment is a bad thing instead of a good thing. This is a misconception.

If it truly is possible to come back, why wouldn't the Buddha have come back? Think about that long and hard. And yet his teachings have changed countless lives, awakened numerous minds to the truth, and will continue to do so for a long time to come. As much as he's gone, he's never been gone. This is the same for us. Our reality is unborn, deathless, but we don't see it clearly. That clarity of vision is the only difference; and when it comes, the mind releases itself from the struggle against how things are, the craving born of ignorance and the greed, hatred and delusion that dominate our lives.

Dakini

If it truly is possible to come back, why wouldn't the Buddha have come back? Think about that long and hard.

hm! That's the best argument in support of no-rebirth I've ever heard. You sure can come up with 'em, Cloud!
(But I still believe in rebirth, for lots of reasons. ) I dunno, maybe the Buddha had his reasons....

Arjquad

I know I won't reach enlightenment in this lifetime, but if I did it all really depends. I would like to remember about Buddhism but if I could choose where I was reborn and I could remember this life then I may do it.

aMatt

Otherwise... how do you do it? I don't think the run-of-the-mill person can just say "okay I'm going to come back and help people!"

The context of the OP was simply if you could, what would you do? Not the mechanics of how.