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As a Buddhist, will you fight in a war?

hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
edited March 2011 in Buddhism Basics
How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
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Comments

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    Why should I murder other people because a government sanctions it?
    All the best,
    Todd
  • StaticToyboxStaticToybox Veteran
    My answer depends on the circumstances.
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    Never go to war.

    And I would only fight an oppressive regime by non violent means.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    Given absurd wars like Vietnam and Iraq? I guess it would be self defense. Some [insert numerous expletives here] government "leaders" forced you into a sickening unnatural fight-or-die situation? Very sad.

    Plus you are supposed to save your buddy's life by SELFLESSLY risking your own and possibly dying in the process. I dunno. Good question.
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    only in self-defense of a country I have a conection to.
  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    edited March 2011
    I would fight only to protect my family or myself in a self defense type scenario. I don't believe in risking my life for my country when I live in a city that is full of neglected homeless people. So it's not about karma to me. It's about common sense.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
    It's about kill or be killed. Even if you fight to defend your self/family/country from other people. If trying to survive defending myself buys me a ticket to a hellish afterlife, then I regret nothing.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
    Conscientious objectors are not forced to do anything. Ergo, it doesn't even arise in my consciousness that this would even be an option.

  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
    I spent many years in the military, before my Buddhist practice forced me to find another occupation. Here's the honest answer to your question, from an old warrior who proudly wore a uniform.

    You don't kill people on the battlefield. You kill an enemy combatant. You complete a mission. You take ground. You liberate a village. You secure a perimeter. You drop a payload. You destroy a target. You inadvertently cause unavoidable civilian casualties. That makes you a soldier.

    But you never, never kill a person. That makes you a killer.

    If you understand this, then you understand why soldiers are not killers and how people can wage war against other people.


  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    Sounds like words of wisdom to me.
    Another of my favorite word; collateral damage.
    Does any of your fellow soldiers have PTSD?
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
    You don't kill people on the battlefield.

    So what do you kill? Robots? :D

    I'd never fight in a war. I'd rather die than having to kill someone.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    Sabre, you may wish to reread what he wrote.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    I guess I would say that until any of us can acknowledge our capacity and complicity in sowing death and destruction, all the peace-ful talk will not amount to much more than an ethical encouragement... tastes good, less filling.

    It's nice to make nice -- really it is -- but making nice is a stepping stone, not a stopping point. "Peace," however sweet the tune, cannot actualize peace. Only determined individuals can do that.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Sounds like words of wisdom to me.
    Another of my favorite word; collateral damage.
    Does any of your fellow soldiers have PTSD?
    Yes. I joined during the Vietnam War, when people if not the government finally admitted some of the worst injuries of war can't be seen.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    I've already made up my mind. I'd rather go to prison than allow myself to be drafted.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Some violence seems legitimate and impossible to avoid, such as the Vietnamese fight for their independence against the US and the French. But I can't think of such a legitimate, avoidable struggle by a major Western country in the last century.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Some violence seems legitimate and impossible to avoid, such as the Vietnamese fight for their independence against the US and the French. But I can't think of such a legitimate, avoidable struggle by a major Western country in the last century.
    Even Wikipedia is somewhat informative about World War II, the Spanish Civil War and other conflicts during "the last century."

  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    Some violence seems legitimate and impossible to avoid, such as the Vietnamese fight for their independence against the US and the French. But I can't think of such a legitimate, avoidable struggle by a major Western country in the last century.
    World War II maybe? Resisting the Nazis and the Italian Fascists? The Spanish Civil War?
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    Sorry to sound like a broken record.
    'War is old men talking & young men dying.'
    War is stupid because you are killing people who hasnt done anything to you.
    If I kill a Japanese soldier, its because some other Japanese soldier killed
    my brother.
    If a cobra killed your son, would you go around killing cobras?
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Even Wikipedia is somewhat informative about World War II, the Spanish Civil War and other conflicts during "the last century."
    I don't know much about the Spanish Civil War, but I've written here about WWII before. I'm copying it here, because I don't currently know how to access the newbuddhist.com version of it, only the ephemeral google cache:
    Pat Buchanan wrote a surprisingly good book about this topic. (Surprising to me, at any rate.) Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War": How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World. If you can stomach the Western supremacism and the occasional tricky argument, it is hard to refute his main premises:
    • That Britain would have been better off not fighting the war, because to begin with, Hitler had no designs to the West and intended to take his Lebensraum from Russia. In fact, Poland was obviously just a stepping stone to Russia. If Britain hadn't distracted Hitler from this design by entering into a war of choice, Hitler would have set the two worst Western regimes of the 20C at each other's throats. Instead, the USSR became one of the big winners of WWII.
    • That Britain lost its empire because it squandered its resources in the two world wars, which came about because it saw itstelf as a kind of "policeman to the world."
    Another good book on this topic is Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization. It is a kind of history of the lead up to WWII, told from the perspective of the pacifists who resisted it. It ends with the following text:
    Was it a "good war"? Did waging it help anyone who needed help? Those where the basic questions that I hoped to answer when I began writing.

    I dedicate this book to the memory of Clarence Pickett and other American and British pacifists. They've never really gotten their due. They tried to save Jewish refugees, feed Europe, reconcile the United States and Japan, and stop the war from happening. They failed, but they were right.
    One of its main premises is that the British strategy of trying to starve Germany into submission by blockading Europe and bombing Germany's food supply and residential structures played a central role in escalating the Nazi persecution of Jewish people to genocide.
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    So the British intervention in the war is responsible for the increased genocide of the Jews?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
    Avoid the battlefield.

    P
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    So the British intervention in the war is responsible for the increased genocide of the Jews?
    That's not my point.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    I think we should have a law that says; the first 10,000 soldiers sent into any war must 40 years old or older.
  • yimingyiming

    Yes. I joined during the Vietnam War, when people if not the government finally admitted some of the worst injuries of war can't be seen.
    Did you kill any enemy combatant?
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?
    I spent many years in the military, before my Buddhist practice forced me to find another occupation. Here's the honest answer to your question, from an old warrior who proudly wore a uniform.

    You don't kill people on the battlefield. You kill an enemy combatant. You complete a mission. You take ground. You liberate a village. You secure a perimeter. You drop a payload. You destroy a target. You inadvertently cause unavoidable civilian casualties. That makes you a soldier.

    But you never, never kill a person. That makes you a killer.

    If you understand this, then you understand why soldiers are not killers and how people can wage war against other people.


    Nice work Cinorjer. :thumbsup: Seriously. What you say is sad but true. :(


    BTW, war is Hell (duh). Those stupid idiotic humans (numbering only in the hundreds ? over the centuries) who actually start the wars are such a collossal disappointment.
  • mithrilmithril Veteran
    To answer the topic title, no.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    I think we should have a law that says; the first 10,000 soldiers sent into any war must 40 years old or older.

    And let them be well-educated and rich into the bargain.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran

    Yes. I joined during the Vietnam War, when people if not the government finally admitted some of the worst injuries of war can't be seen.
    Did you kill any enemy combatant?
    Not directly. I was a medic at a military hospital during the war.

  • Mr_SerenityMr_Serenity Veteran
    Sounds like words of wisdom to me.
    Another of my favorite word; collateral damage.
    Does any of your fellow soldiers have PTSD?
    Yes. I joined during the Vietnam War, when people if not the government finally admitted some of the worst injuries of war can't be seen.
    Much props to you for seeming to make a good recovery with the help of Buddhism. I've known plenty of Viatnam vets that wander the streets of L.A. homeless and their minds are totally ruined due to that war.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    Dont forget the vets of gulf wars & afghanistan.
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Why? Is being rich and under 40 automatically an evil thing these days? :confused:
    I think we should have a law that says; the first 10,000 soldiers sent into any war must 40 years old or older.

    And let them be well-educated and rich into the bargain.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    As long as people are addicted to selfish desire, there will be wars. I see it as another symptom of the disease that affects all our minds. Take what's happening in Lybia, for instance. One man is addicted to power and refuses to let go of control. But it isn't just him, but his sons and the Generals and powerful that help him rule that are willing to kill an entire country full of people to cling to that power.

    So what's the alternative? What do you do, when the battlefield is your own front yard? How do you help people, when the choices are either war or a brutal dictatorship passed along from father to son?

    I don't have the answers anymore. Thought I did, when I was younger. Or maybe I'm just feeling tired and cynical this morning.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    What do you do, when the battlefield is your own front yard?
    Remember your commitment to the first precept.

    P
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Why? Is being rich and under 40 automatically an evil thing these days? :confused:
    I think we should have a law that says; the first 10,000 soldiers sent into any war must 40 years old or older.

    And let them be well-educated and rich into the bargain.
    In the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11," director Michael Moore stationed people outside the U.S. Congress -- people who offered military draft material to those politicians who wore American flag lapel pins and spoke with 'sincerity' about patriotic duties ... and yet whose children seldom, if ever, went off to fight. At 40, the well-educated and well-heeled know enough to steer clear as best they can from the wars they encourage others to fight. If they were first in line, it is dubious whether the policies and propaganda of war would be heeded with such ease.
  • yimingyiming
    As long as people are addicted to selfish desire, there will be wars. I see it as another symptom of the disease that affects all our minds. Take what's happening in Lybia, for instance. One man is addicted to power and refuses to let go of control. But it isn't just him, but his sons and the Generals and powerful that help him rule that are willing to kill an entire country full of people to cling to that power.
    The Libya snydrome exists in every society, even here in this forum. A dictator, like Gaddafi, decides how things should be run in the same way a forum moderator decides when we are off topic, where a thread should be pigeon-holed, and who to ban.
    So what's the alternative? What do you do, when the battlefield is your own front yard? How do you help people, when the choices are either war or a brutal dictatorship passed along from father to son?
    A dictatorship is brutal only when we are not compliant and choose to confront it.
    I don't have the answers anymore. Thought I did, when I was younger. Or maybe I'm just feeling tired and cynical this morning.
    Answers for what? A world without wars? Humans are inherently dictatorial. As members of society, we are all damned if we comply and we are damned if we don't. Invariably, we gravitate towards violent revolution.

  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    Give freedom or give me death.
    Rousseau

    Dictators fall when people are no longer afraid.
    The revolution in Tunisia was sparked by the suicide of an
    unemployed graduate whose fruit stall was burnt by officials.
  • mithrilmithril Veteran


    I spent many years in the military, before my Buddhist practice forced me to find another occupation.



    Not directly. I was a medic at a military hospital during the war.

    As far as i understand you were there healing people? Why would that not be Buddhist? So you basically were putting your life at risk by being in dangerous areas to help people that were hurt as i see it, and that sounds pretty nice of you to me...

    If that is considered fighting in a war, than i should correct my answer to: yes, if it involved healing people but not killing people, then i would fight in a war.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    If I were drafted? I'd choose the ignominy -hell of CO status. Maybe these days I'd (we'd) have lots of good company so it wouldn't be so bad. OTOH, Of course they'd split us up so there'd be one lone CO per 100 abusive draftees.

    It's all a volunteer thing now, right? Just don't volunteer. Even if you only have a choice of working at a fast food place or enlisting (and eventually getting benefits); stick with fast food. :(
  • StaticToyboxStaticToybox Veteran
    It's all a volunteer thing now, right? Just don't volunteer. Even if you only have a choice of working at a fast food place or enlisting (and eventually getting benefits); stick with fast food. :(
    Well we still have to register for Selective Service, so I guess technically there could still be a draft. I don't think that's very likely however. Our Armed Forces do quite a good job at marketing themselves and are doing fine as an all-volunteer force, and reinstating the draft would be political suicide now.
  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran
    One of my favourite poems is "Dooley is a traitor" by James Michie which tells the story of the trial of Dooley who is no pacifist but refuses to fight people he doesn't know for reasons he doesn't understand on behalf of newspapers and politicians he doesn't trust. Though the poem is fairly Christian in tone it sums up my feelings about war. I'm not so enlightened that I wouldn't kill or be killed to save my family and friends but I don't trust the politicians to decide who I should kill or be killed by.

    I would like to think I would never take the life of another person but in all honesty I can think of a few situations where I would shamefully do so.
  • ArjquadArjquad Veteran
    I wouldn't but if I knew there was going to be a draft, I'd enlist in the Air Force since I'm too tall to fly jets and I don't have 20/20 vision so I'd most likely get a non-combat job.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    I would fight in the war against ignorance. In fact I think I already am in some ways. :)
  • StaticToyboxStaticToybox Veteran
    I wouldn't but if I knew there was going to be a draft, I'd enlist in the Air Force since I'm too tall to fly jets and I don't have 20/20 vision so I'd most likely get a non-combat job.

    I suppose if I had to enlist I'd follow my grandfather's footsteps and try for the Navy. But I'm 33 years old and have a heart condition. No branch of the military would take under any circumstances.
  • ArjquadArjquad Veteran
    edited March 2011
    I wouldn't but if I knew there was going to be a draft, I'd enlist in the Air Force since I'm too tall to fly jets and I don't have 20/20 vision so I'd most likely get a non-combat job.

    I suppose if I had to enlist I'd follow my grandfather's footsteps and try for the Navy. But I'm 33 years old and have a heart condition. No branch of the military would take under any circumstances.
    I'm 17, in top physical ability (I think) and an Eagle Scout many branches would want me to join them I believe
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    I would never fight in a war, especially when the war that is ongoing now is not one of saving the country I once lived in, even then I would not fight. Look at the world from space, do you see any boarders or segregation? No, then look at it from a map, it is very different.

    I would not kill somebody because the government of a countries combined ego wants something, be it land, money or something material.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    Good point.
    Nations are glorified tribalism.
    Treason is punishable by death, they will kill you if you
    betray an idea/concept of a country.
    Imagine if Tijuana were part of USA.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    I just see war as another form of the ego. I do not care if my country is being invaded because it is not my country... I will just flee away from the danger or try to help those in need. Think what the buddha would do, would he take up arms and start blasting away people because his country invaded another?

    Like I stated, I see the world as it is meant to be seen, from space with no boarders or segregation that you find on maps.
  • PeacefulAssemblyChurPeacefulAssemblyChur
    How do you deal with the karma of killing people on the battlefield?

    Thanks for the question.
    I'll "have to" deal with the karma of Peaceful Non-Cooperartion.

  • PeacefulAssemblyChurPeacefulAssemblyChur
    I think we should have a law that says; the first 10,000 soldiers sent into any war must 40 years old or older.
    I like this, but would suggest that if the first 40 had to be from congress then the nunber would never even get to 10, nevermind 10,000.
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