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Abundance? The earth has limited resources. Be kind, leave some for future generations.
Imo, we do this for our personal liberation but not for the world or future generations. Future generations will just be as greedy as the current generation, just as the current generation was as greedy as the past generation. Imo, there was never a Garden of Eden or Shangri-La. When Africans visited the Americas for the first time, if was not on some cultural or student exchange program.
I am very familiar with opportunity cost. I feel that we just have very different opinions and maybe something is missing that we do not have an understanding I am just going to leave this at that.
@hermitwin, Exactly. That is emptiness right there. When we look at the whole picture, we see only cause and effect; conditionality at play. This is how we aim at Nirvana, and also how we aim the future to a better state for the non-suffering of all to come.
I was thinking the reason some people have an easy life, even though they presumably worked for it and got paid extremely handsomely, but the reason they enjoy material luxuries was a result of their accumulated good Kharma.
Wikipedia says: "Buddhism links karma directly to the motives behind an action. Motivation usually makes the difference between "good" and "bad" actions; but included in the motivation is also the aspect of ignorance such that a well-intended action from an ignorant mind can subsequently be interpreted as a "bad" action in the sense that it creates unpleasant results for the "actor"." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma#Buddhism]
@Roger, the way you post it seems to me way to much as saying "It was Gods will".
Those people failed to foresee what was coming, so they got themselves into that situation. Inevitably, you get yourself some bad karma. Bad karma that came from their wrong choices. They didn't make the wrong choice on purpose, its just that the conditions were such that they had the ability to make the wrong choice.
For example, i can go meditating or aimlessly surfing the net looking at puppy pictures. Those choices seem equal to me at the moment. So i can chose either. But in time, the latter might show itself as a contributer to my share of bad karma when i'm still caught drifting from one superficial pleasure to the next, and fail my tests because of it. Sometimes, and i could argue that by chance, you choose an option that causes you bad karma. Hope someone comes with a better explanation, as in reality i have no clue what im talking about XD I'm barely acquainted with karma myself.
are you saying that anyone who owns a dog loves there dog more than a dying child?
Yes. Then again, i have no right to tell you how you feel. When presented with the choice of either saving my dog or a random starving child i will save my dog. I have this choice multiple times a day, or better said, always when i have the means to choose (money and/or time). And i always, always, choose the dog. When someone feeds their dog every day, but fails to help the dying child, i see it as if they love their dog more than a child. We might be radiating loving-kindness to everyone, but in the end, someone ends their weeks of not eating and dies. You might argue that you still love them both equally, but for me this is as saying "God is not cruel, he died because God loves him." I will not go there.
... Blame me. ...
We can comfortably live in our own world until we see what is going on in places where there is extreme suffering and that we have the power to alleviate a fellow man's suffering.
And sadly, or greatly, we do.
My dog's food is made by me. It's not bought from the supermarket. Can I keep my puppy now?
Did you actually grow the ingredients, or did you make a poor person do it, just because you had the means? Did you use land for that that might have preserved some creature, of whom we have not killed the family but the entire species; or could have been used to grow food for starving children on? I could go on. I don't care where your dogs food comes from, and everything i say will be wrong as i do not know your situation. What i care about is that you chose the dog. As did most of us.
You are saying money either goes to the dog or a child. There is enough food produced in the world for everyone to be comfortably well. The problem is so much food is wasted. Maybe the distribution of money isnt the answer?
Nah, money is not like that. My understanding of money comes from the following story:
Lets say people catch fish by hand, and every person can catch one fish a day. Than one person decides to stay hungry for a day and makes a net. From then on, he can catch 2 fish a day. Because he gets 2 fish, he can either only work every other day, or give as a loan 1 fish to another person. So another person can take a loan of one fish, for which he will have to return 2 to the first person. So he can eat and not work while he makes himself a net too. Now both can catch 2 fish a day. [roughly from: How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't]
Value is made out of nothing. Money is just more convenient as are fish, because it doesn't spoil. So giving money to someone doesn't necessarily make one poorer and the other better off. But what is a resource that can not be made of nothing, but can only be used up is our attention. Or time. Simply because we are mortal, we have to decide, who will it be. So because of that, when choosing the dog, you condemn the child.
If someone buys a chair does that mean they love a chair more than a starving child? your logic is flawed.
Again, i can not tell anyone how they feel. But if you were starving and barely alive because of it, and you saw someone pick the chair instead of help you, i wonder if you still felt the same? If someone knew you were dying, but would choose to ignore you and give their attention to a chair?
I think that you are being a little unfair and judgmental about this scenario.
No im not. Simply because my capacity to be judgmental is much to small to judge every action that happens in the world. I do not feel people who buy chairs are basically murdering little children. Still, sometimes we don't act when we could easily prevent something. But i'm not saying someone is to blame, since we could say that we all are and nobody is.
I'm simply acknowledging the situation, while saying that no one is to blame for the mess we are in (or we all are). Regardless of this, we are left with the mess and will have to decide what to do with it.
I appreciate all of these ponts. After rereading most of this thread I have an understanding of what you are saying and where you are coming from, and your perspective. Thank you for broadening my view on this subject.
Did you actually grow the ingredients, or did you make a poor person do it, just because you had the means? Did you use land for that that might have preserved some creature, of whom we have not killed the family but the entire species; or could have been used to grow food for starving children on? I could go on. I don't care where your dogs food comes from, and everything i say will be wrong as i do not know your situation. What i care about is that you chose the dog. As did most of us.
I didn't choose the dog. He chose me. As for his food, it is part of my dinner which I make from organic ingredients sourced from local farmers who worship Al Gore. I am mindful, mithril. Me and my dog tread the Noble Eight-fold Path.
We seem reasonable enough living our own lives. Yet collectively we are destroying the planet. Americans spend $10.3 billion pa on their pets while babies starve to death in poor countries. USA spend $700 bil on defence while poor people have no clean water to drink. Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy. We all contribute to these madness. And USA is not the only culprit.
And somehow you want this to end. How ? Stop U.S. and other G-20 countries from spending money on their OWN areas of interest ? Those poor children die of hunger and lack of health because of the greed of their own leaders,who want more for their own greed. The same thing goes for some of the the ex-comunist countries in Eastern Europe, the same goes for some countries in Latin America. Even if you could gather enough money to help build a... I don't know...hospital or small water-cleaning station in one of those 'nasty' areas, in short or long time, the thing that you built would be destroyed by the lack of maintenance or by civil wars, or by anything bad that happens in that area. This madness you write about is not something that will end by relocating a powerfull country's money into a poor country's monetary treasury. It won't end even if you hand-build schools and hospitals. Those poor people need to be determined to do something useful, instead of waiting and waiting and waiting for help from other people.
No positive justfication for inoculating people with a guilt virus.
Just a point - no one can inject you with 'guilt virus' - you can only do that yourself.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
i had this question come up in my mind ever since i read the OP. since others have started to discuss it, i want to ask this...
does buddhism teach that the life of a human is more important than the life of an animal? is it naive of me to say that i thought sentient was sentient?
the OP seemed to imply that we squander money on our pets, while we could be feeding the world. in one view, it is a valid point. but then i think of some of the lonely people i have met whose pets really ARE their children (sometimes they are all they have). and i think of myself and my relationship with my cats. in times when i was alone, they were all i had as well. while sponsoring a child in a third world nation might intellectually provide some peace of mind, it could never replace the love that i give my animals, and they give me in return.
does buddhism teach that the life of a human is more important than the life of an animal? is it naive of me to say that i thought sentient was sentient?
The teaching of Buddhism is the teaching of your heart. Sentient is indeed sentient. Mother Nature nourishes and destroys all without distinction. Why do we crave more kindness than Mother Nature gives?
USA owes China $1 trillion which it will never be able to pay back.
Not true. China holds approx. USD 800 billion of US Treasuries and that amounts to only 20% of US debt in foreign hands. Just because America has debts doesn't mean she is poor. The US has tremendous earning power.
Moreover, China's GDP is 1/10 of the USA.... It is , for now , a paper tiger.
Moreover, China's GDP is 1/10 of the USA.... It is , for now , a paper tiger.
US GDP 14 trillion. China 5 trillion. 5 into 14 is greater than 1/10. Almost 1/3. What you are trying to say is that US's 14 trillion comes from only 300 million people while China's 5 trillion comes from the effort of 1.3 billion people.
Hermitwin's topic question is "are we mad". I don't think we are mad. Seems like we are stupid. If man has the ingenuity to invent a gun and then point it at his own head and pull the trigger, he must be stupid. Then again, he could be mad.
Moreover, China's GDP is 1/10 of the USA.... It is , for now , a paper tiger.
US GDP 14 trillion. China 5 trillion. 5 into 14 is greater than 1/10. Almost 1/3. What you are trying to say is that US's 14 trillion comes from only 300 million people while China's 5 trillion comes from the effort of 1.3 billion people.
Hermitwin's topic question is "are we mad". I don't think we are mad. Seems like we are stupid. If man has the ingenuity to invent a gun and then point it at his own head and pull the trigger, he must be stupid. Then again, he could be mad.
Yikes this number was given to me by a friend who owns three banks! I gotta watch that. sorry
I am with DD in that I believe we cannot expect change from outside ourselves.
As for China, my real point is that their economy is relatively small, especially when you factor in population. As for topic, every generation states we are destroying or debasing the world or mankind... yet here we are. In my lifetime we first worried about the atom bomb, then DDT, then population explosion, then terrorism, and global warming. I am through worrying. We are not mad, just confused.
As for China, my real point is that their economy is relatively small, especially when you factor in population.
No one knows how far China can continue its phenomenal economic growth rate that has gone on steadily for 30 years!! Couple that with the fact that the Chinese is among the smartest people in the world not to mention their passionate, brutal Asian intensity, a cultural characteristic that is found in the Japanese (and also the Germans), and you have a receipe for serious concern. Then, you look at the US and you wonder if it will ever get her act together. If not, we had better start learning Chinese.
As for topic, every generation states we are destroying or debasing the world or mankind... yet here we are. In my lifetime we first worried about the atom bomb, then DDT, then population explosion, then terrorism, and global warming. I am through worrying. We are not mad, just confused.
Ok, let's say we are confused and through worrying. Bluntly put, is messing around with Buddhism a cop out?
YIMING: Is messing with Buddhism a cop out? Sh#t , I don't know... Like I said , I am through worrying and Buddhists might feel the same ( what is the point , after all?) I do not see mankind changing but I have hope for myself. The expression "If everyone lit just one little candle , what a bright world this would be," is seductive. I am going to try this. I doubt , however, there are too many true "candle lighters " out there. I also believe there never was and never will be. I think it may be selfish to disconnect so completely, to parry every argument with "look inside and find the truth." . For instance, ask about a macro issue on this site : Libya or Yemen, and the best you will get is a reference to Tibet or the Nazis. Buddhism does not seem to be a practice which can deal with large geo-political issues. I guess in this respect it feels, for me today, like a "cop out."
China is very large and very diverse. I do not see their people holding together (being held together) under a communist regime, for all the reasons you list as their attributes:smart, passionate, intense, and, I will add, ambitious . The internet has shrunk the world into a 17" screen. We all want TV and iceboxes and cars and houses and stereos and the rest. I think the stirrings in Egypt and Libya and the rest are the beginning . What do you think of the "Facebook Revolution?" China will soon face it .
Dont forget China was a sole superpower, Yuan, Ming, Ching dynasties, just to name a few. They are not interested in world domination, they have what they need within their borders except oil. China is for now, the world's factory, so they need a lot of raw materials for making products to export. The outlook for China is not good. How do you transition to a democracy? The biggest complain in China now is landgrabbing. Rich powerful people oppressing poor people. The crisis will come soon enough.
China's elite are fearful of being bullied by foreign powers. The memory of occupation by Japan and humiliating defeat by small European forces(19th century) are still fresh. Hence the wasteful efforts to send a man to the moon and huge military expenses. But the 1.4 bil chinese are more concerned with rising prices and corruption. dont sign up for chinese language class just yet.
Is messing with Buddhism a cop out? Sh#t , I don't know... Like I said , I am through worrying and Buddhists might feel the same ( what is the point , after all?)
You are not through worrying, buddy. Not by a long shot. What you are really through is barking up wrong trees. And, by the sound of it, Buddhism looks very much like one of those trees.
I do not see mankind changing but I have hope for myself.
That's sounds fair. The catch is, you are mankind. The whole shebang is you. You can play at being sndymorn for all you want, but that's a sideshow and deep in your gut, you know it.
The expression "If everyone lit just one little candle , what a bright world this would be," is seductive. I am going to try this. I doubt , however, there are too many true "candle lighters " out there. I also believe there never was and never will be.
Candle-lighters are like sndymorns, all side-shows. This is what they tell each other at Tahrir Square, Greenpeace and elsewhere...light your candle. They will end up burning the whole world down.
I think it may be selfish to disconnect so completely, to parry every argument with "look inside and find the truth." . For instance, ask about a macro issue on this site : Libya or Yemen, and the best you will get is a reference to Tibet or the Nazis. Buddhism does not seem to be a practice which can deal with large geo-political issues. I guess in this respect it feels, for me today, like a "cop out."
Buddhism is a cop-out. To be fair, it's not Buddhism, actually. It's the sideshow Buddha wannabes that are copping out. They are downing Buddhism like Jack Daniels. This is why their ability to deal with macro issues is that of barflies.
China is very large and very diverse. I do not see their people holding together (being held together) under a communist regime, for all the reasons you list as their attributes:smart, passionate, intense, and, I will add, ambitious . The internet has shrunk the world into a 17" screen. We all want TV and iceboxes and cars and houses and stereos and the rest. I think the stirrings in Egypt and Libya and the rest are the beginning . What do you think of the "Facebook Revolution?" China will soon face it .
What is happening in the Middle-East is the result of Arab exposure through the internet to the world beyond their miserable way of life. They see what they are missing and no longer want to put up with the religious garbage. The issue is their poverty and no longer western evil. China, on the other hand, has been lifting millions of Chinese out of poverty which is the main thrust of their economic development. I don't trust activists. They just want to tear things down which is a lot easier that building things up. As long as the corruption is kept in check, China will stumble along. The Chinese just want three square meals. They are a pragmatic people who love the good life as much as Americans. At any rate, all these macro stuff is just a big sideshow. Aren't you interested in the real issues the Buddha was concerned about?
Yiming, Thank You. I will consider all this. I want you to know, I am not a Buddhist (you probably guessed) but respect people , perhaps like you, whom commit fully to a path. I am looking for more than I have found in other pious pursuits it is true. I am a dabbler (in Buddhism), but not a poser. I , in the distant past, meditated but do not today. I think, and I think you think, I need to be quiet. This will be very hard for me.
I , in the distant past, meditated but do not today. I think, and I think you think, I need to be quiet. This will be very hard for me.
Are you telling me to bugger off? That's ok, sndy, no problem. I am not a Buddhist either. I thought you wanted to get through the fog on a climb up Everest. I am not Sir Edmund Hilary. I am not a Sherpa guide either. I am just a mountain goat who wants to tag along.
Are we (human beings) mad as in ignorant or insane? I would say yes.
does buddhism teach that the life of a human is more important than the life of an animal? is it naive of me to say that i thought sentient was sentient?
With regards to how they should be treated, everything that I have seen or read treats animals and humans as if they are the same thing.
With regards to how they should be treated, everything that I have seen or read treats animals and humans as if they are the same thing.
Agree 1000 (1K) percent. I have two cats, I consider them equals. Birds? Squirrels? Equals. I just happen to be bigger and supposedly smarter, but, otherwise, I'm no different from these other living beings. Why? We're all part of the same imponderable amazing HUUUUUGE-OSITY.
To declare there's a difference is to assert our goofy self-centered human judgement: which doesn't work very well nor very often.
Agree 1000 (1K) percent. I have two cats, I consider them equals. Birds? Squirrels? Equals. I just happen to be bigger and supposedly smarter, but, otherwise, I'm no different from these other living beings.
Are you taking this equality business a little too far? What about a monkey? Is that your equal. Not a macaque or marmoset but a silly monkey?
Agree 1000 (1K) percent. I have two cats, I consider them equals. Birds? Squirrels? Equals. I just happen to be bigger and supposedly smarter, but, otherwise, I'm no different from these other living beings.
Are you taking this equality business a little too far? What about a monkey? Is that your equal. Not a macaque or marmoset but a silly monkey?
Yes. In the large (HUUUUGE) scheme of things (not our little human view) all life is connected and therefore equally precious.
Maybe I'll draw the line with bacteria and algae so I can function on a daily basis, but when we get to living things with central nervous systems and brains..., then I gotta make the "equality" ruling stick.
Of course, if I had to choose between the lives of my cats or children the cats would have to go; but that's a terrible thought experiment; kind of like the *humorous* thought experiment you propose: me (us) being equal to a "silly monkey."
I enjoyed that. I'm going to google "silly monkey" right now. Results below:
Not technically a monkey, this is an ape. BUT yes, I'd have to say _I_ am equal to him (assuming it's a guy chimp)! I KNOW my co-workers are equal to him/her.
I , in the distant past, meditated but do not today. I think, and I think you think, I need to be quiet. This will be very hard for me.
Are you telling me to bugger off? That's ok, sndy, no problem. I am not a Buddhist either. I thought you wanted to get through the fog on a climb up Everest. I am not Sir Edmund Hilary. I am not a Sherpa guide either. I am just a mountain goat who wants to tag along.
Do not "bugger off." So are you, not being a Buddhist, the king of Atheists? Are you banging around here trying to get a rise out of yourself and others?
Yiming; Oh, and China: I know much progress has been made in economic terms. The CITIES and denizens therein are content(?). The country folk however, in their hundreds of millions have heard there is nothing in the city any longer for which they can aspire, for which they can aim, to which they might hope to move and enjoy. There is a disconnect and someone better shut down the internet cafes in the little towns quick. Feudalism may make a big comeback in the outback, so to speak.
The outlook for China is not good. How do you transition to a democracy?
slowly; like they have been doing so far.
People wanted Chinese citizens to switch from a third world country to a modern country overnight. People were offended to see the working conditions of the sweet shops; ignoring that this was a necessary transition. Life conditions in China have improved a thousand folds over the last few decades; the country is slowly but consistently walking in the right direction. Especially with the business with other countries department. The ties with Japan, Korea and asia in general are great and soon will be valued more to those countries than the ties with the US. On top of it, almost all world economy relies on China to some extend. China value to other countries and it's impact on their economy is constantly and slowly rising.
As opposed to the USA for example, walking slowly and consistently in the wrong direction. From education to manufacturing to life conditions (giant 3rd world country level ghettos everywhere) to human rights; everything is going in a downward spiral. USA value to other countries and it's impact on their economy is constantly and slowly falling; to eventually become irrelevant to most if it isn't already.
If you had to put money on a business in the stock market; put your money on the ones that are trending up; and bail on those trending down. Especially if those are 40 years long trends already.
Who is Kim Jong Il's (N. Korea) best friend? China. The problem in China is there is disconnect between what the govt does & what the people want. Dont forget that China is still a communist country with a capitalist economy. That's like a vegetarian who eats steak.
As opposed to the USA for example, walking slowly and consistently in the wrong direction.
I understand where you are coming from in your take on the US and China. Personally, I think the US has the best social model, one that is accommodative and inclusive regardless on the diverse and alarming excesses of her citizens. Somehow the rappers and the buffoons with pants halfway down their asses do contribute to the awesome technological innovations of America. A less tolerant society would not be able to produce the sleek Macbook Air or a Dreamliner. Here, I think of China and her economic model, Singapore, where loafers hanging out on street corners, like stray dogs, are not seen. These are no-nonsense societies where there is no room for doing nothing and being you. Everything about America, her music, movies, fast-foods, business-style right down to her battered dollar, is loved by the world no matter how much the idea of the US is detested and used - by both outsiders and Americans themselves - as a punching bag.
My money is in the US, not for sentimental reasons but cold-calculating ones. China has a long way to go just to keep Chinese fed and housed at the basic level. If things are going gang-busters in China and the emerging Asia, that is because of massive amount of hot money flowing from the west hunting for higher returns in the east. China is still the factory floor of the planet and the rest of Asia is hanging onto China for dear economic life. China practices communism, a fact that is lost on a free-market world that would even trade with the devil just to avoid going underwater. If, for any reason the tide turns and hot money leaves Asia, the effect will be crippling. Until the, the dance goes on between the capitalist and the communist.
Yiming said: "Poor people suffer because they are not living by Buddhist principles." Really?
You don't think so, swing? The Buddha said that suffering can end if you live by the Noble Eight-fold Path. Therefore, the suffering of poor people, who has no clean water to drink and whose babies are dying of hunger, is clear evidence that they are off the Path.
Here I am in Buddhaland sitting in the jacuzzi filled with bubbly clean water. Is hermitwin justified in making me feel guilty because poor people have no clean water to drink?
WOW. Poor people suffer just like anybody else. What's the problem?
I know of a guy who is as rich as cream, owns an ocean-going sailing yacht, travels across the globe and has to pay people to accompany him because he's a PITA alcoholic. Gee I wonder what that suffering is like?
Then there was that Harvard(?) study which showed poor people in the third world are happier than Americans living the "dream."
I forgot the name of the movie I saw where the migrant worker went through hell to get into the USA after enduring extreme disappointments and hardships in his own country. He wound up suffering under a nasty American "slave" driver while he was digging irrigation trenches in the sun in SoCal.
In the final scene he looked up at the sun, had a sudden rush of positive joy-filled emotions and thru that epiphany he realized how fortunate he was to simply to have his life!
Suffering, freedom from suffering: everybody can have it.
I forgot the name of the movie I saw where the migrant worker went through hell to get into the USA after enduring extreme disappointments and hardships in his own country. He wound up suffering under a nasty American "slave" driver while he was digging irrigation trenches in the sun in SoCal.
I saw this other movie which was worse. Illegal immigrants from India in the UK selling their kidneys for US Passports and onward flight tickets to New York City. Those organs were cut out in a dingy hotel by the hotel manager. The suffering that the Buddha put an end to back then was nothing compared to what we go through these days.
Yiming said: "Poor people suffer because they are not living by Buddhist principles." Really?
You don't think so, swing? The Buddha said that suffering can end if you live by the Noble Eight-fold Path. Therefore, the suffering of poor people, who has no clean water to drink and whose babies are dying of hunger, is clear evidence that they are off the Path.
Here I am in Buddhaland sitting in the jacuzzi filled with bubbly clean water. Is hermitwin justified in making me feel guilty because poor people have no clean water to drink?
Suffering is not created by what I have and don't have. I can be financially poor as dirt, follow the N8 and be very happy. If I predicate my happiness on external things, I would agree that I am following my own ignorance and am indeed off the path. Happiness or suffering is not predicated on things but seeing that all of it is dukkha, annata and annica. I would not begrudge somebody, who through their efforts (hopefully its through right livelihood and the N8)was able to live comfortably and well. I would feel joy for them and their accomplishments. One must also recognize that what we do as people and as a nation can and does seriously impact others, that our intent should spring from love, equinimity and compassion. With much metta, Todd
The confusing thing to me is that I can read this whole thread and really it is eye opening, but how much does it really help my understanding? There are the pieces of my life. My dreams I wake up from with that intensity.
So what is actually happening as my attention is directed hither? Like a droplet falling from the sky sermon.
falling falling rain drops are falling on my tongue!
Comments
I feel that we just have very different opinions and maybe
something is missing that we do not have an understanding I am
just going to leave this at that.
Much love and peace.
That would depend on what we teach our children.
"Buddhism links karma directly to the motives behind an action. Motivation usually makes the difference between "good" and "bad" actions; but included in the motivation is also the aspect of ignorance such that a well-intended action from an ignorant mind can subsequently be interpreted as a "bad" action in the sense that it creates unpleasant results for the "actor"."
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma#Buddhism]
@Roger, the way you post it seems to me way to much as saying "It was Gods will".
Those people failed to foresee what was coming, so they got themselves into that situation. Inevitably, you get yourself some bad karma. Bad karma that came from their wrong choices. They didn't make the wrong choice on purpose, its just that the conditions were such that they had the ability to make the wrong choice.
For example, i can go meditating or aimlessly surfing the net looking at puppy pictures. Those choices seem equal to me at the moment. So i can chose either. But in time, the latter might show itself as a contributer to my share of bad karma when i'm still caught drifting from one superficial pleasure to the next, and fail my tests because of it. Sometimes, and i could argue that by chance, you choose an option that causes you bad karma. Hope someone comes with a better explanation, as in reality i have no clue what im talking about XD I'm barely acquainted with karma myself. Yes. Then again, i have no right to tell you how you feel. When presented with the choice of either saving my dog or a random starving child i will save my dog. I have this choice multiple times a day, or better said, always when i have the means to choose (money and/or time). And i always, always, choose the dog. When someone feeds their dog every day, but fails to help the dying child, i see it as if they love their dog more than a child. We might be radiating loving-kindness to everyone, but in the end, someone ends their weeks of not eating and dies. You might argue that you still love them both equally, but for me this is as saying "God is not cruel, he died because God loves him." I will not go there.
And sadly, or greatly, we do. Did you actually grow the ingredients, or did you make a poor person do it, just because you had the means? Did you use land for that that might have preserved some creature, of whom we have not killed the family but the entire species; or could have been used to grow food for starving children on? I could go on. I don't care where your dogs food comes from, and everything i say will be wrong as i do not know your situation. What i care about is that you chose the dog. As did most of us. Nah, money is not like that. My understanding of money comes from the following story:
Lets say people catch fish by hand, and every person can catch one fish a day. Than one person decides to stay hungry for a day and makes a net. From then on, he can catch 2 fish a day. Because he gets 2 fish, he can either only work every other day, or give as a loan 1 fish to another person. So another person can take a loan of one fish, for which he will have to return 2 to the first person. So he can eat and not work while he makes himself a net too. Now both can catch 2 fish a day.
[roughly from: How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't]
Value is made out of nothing. Money is just more convenient as are fish, because it doesn't spoil. So giving money to someone doesn't necessarily make one poorer and the other better off. But what is a resource that can not be made of nothing, but can only be used up is our attention. Or time. Simply because we are mortal, we have to decide, who will it be. So because of that, when choosing the dog, you condemn the child.
Again, i can not tell anyone how they feel. But if you were starving and barely alive because of it, and you saw someone pick the chair instead of help you, i wonder if you still felt the same? If someone knew you were dying, but would choose to ignore you and give their attention to a chair? No im not. Simply because my capacity to be judgmental is much to small to judge every action that happens in the world. I do not feel people who buy chairs are basically murdering little children. Still, sometimes we don't act when we could easily prevent something. But i'm not saying someone is to blame, since we could say that we all are and nobody is.
I'm simply acknowledging the situation, while saying that no one is to blame for the mess we are in (or we all are). Regardless of this, we are left with the mess and will have to decide what to do with it.
After rereading most of this thread I have an understanding of
what you are saying and where you are coming from, and your
perspective.
I didn't choose the dog. He chose me. As for his food, it is part of my dinner which I make from organic ingredients sourced from local farmers who worship Al Gore. I am mindful, mithril. Me and my dog tread the Noble Eight-fold Path.
By the way, I was wrong and you were right. Actually, China now owns USD 1.1 trillion US Treasuries according to today's Wall Street Journal.
This madness you write about is not something that will end by relocating a powerfull country's money into a poor country's monetary treasury. It won't end even if you hand-build schools and hospitals. Those poor people need to be determined to do something useful, instead of waiting and waiting and waiting for help from other people.
does buddhism teach that the life of a human is more important than the life of an animal? is it naive of me to say that i thought sentient was sentient?
the OP seemed to imply that we squander money on our pets, while we could be feeding the world. in one view, it is a valid point. but then i think of some of the lonely people i have met whose pets really ARE their children (sometimes they are all they have). and i think of myself and my relationship with my cats. in times when i was alone, they were all i had as well. while sponsoring a child in a third world nation might intellectually provide some peace of mind, it could never replace the love that i give my animals, and they give me in return.
What you are trying to say is that US's 14 trillion comes from only 300 million people while China's 5 trillion comes from the effort of 1.3 billion people.
Hermitwin's topic question is "are we mad". I don't think we are mad. Seems like we are stupid. If man has the ingenuity to invent a gun and then point it at his own head and pull the trigger, he must be stupid. Then again, he could be mad.
this number was given to me by a friend who owns three banks!
I gotta watch that. sorry
I am with DD in that I believe we cannot expect change from outside ourselves.
As for China, my real point is that their economy is relatively small, especially when you factor in population.
As for topic, every generation states we are destroying or debasing the world or mankind... yet here we are. In my lifetime we first worried about the atom bomb, then DDT, then population explosion, then terrorism, and global warming. I am through worrying. We are not mad, just confused.
Ok, let's say we are confused and through worrying. Bluntly put, is messing around with Buddhism a cop out?
Is messing with Buddhism a cop out? Sh#t , I don't know... Like I said , I am through worrying and Buddhists might feel the same ( what is the point , after all?) I do not see mankind changing but I have hope for myself. The expression
"If everyone lit just one little candle , what a bright world this would be," is seductive. I am going to try this. I doubt , however, there are too many true "candle lighters " out there. I also believe there never was and never will be.
I think it may be selfish to disconnect so completely, to parry every argument with "look inside and find the truth." . For instance, ask about a macro issue on this site : Libya or Yemen, and the best you will get is a reference to Tibet or the Nazis. Buddhism does not seem to be a practice which can deal with large geo-political issues. I guess in this respect it feels, for me today, like a "cop out."
China is very large and very diverse. I do not see their people holding together (being held together) under a communist regime, for all the reasons you list as their attributes:smart, passionate, intense, and, I will add, ambitious . The internet has shrunk the world into a 17" screen. We all want TV and iceboxes and cars and houses and stereos and the rest. I think the stirrings in Egypt and Libya and the rest are the beginning . What do you think of the "Facebook Revolution?" China will soon face it .
The outlook for China is not good. How do you transition to a democracy?
The biggest complain in China now is landgrabbing. Rich powerful people oppressing poor people. The crisis will come soon enough.
But the 1.4 bil chinese are more concerned with rising prices and corruption.
dont sign up for chinese language class just yet.
That's sounds fair. The catch is, you are mankind. The whole shebang is you. You can play at being sndymorn for all you want, but that's a sideshow and deep in your gut, you know it. Candle-lighters are like sndymorns, all side-shows. This is what they tell each other at Tahrir Square, Greenpeace and elsewhere...light your candle. They will end up burning the whole world down.
Buddhism is a cop-out. To be fair, it's not Buddhism, actually. It's the sideshow Buddha wannabes that are copping out. They are downing Buddhism like Jack Daniels. This is why their ability to deal with macro issues is that of barflies.
What is happening in the Middle-East is the result of Arab exposure through the internet to the world beyond their miserable way of life. They see what they are missing and no longer want to put up with the religious garbage. The issue is their poverty and no longer western evil. China, on the other hand, has been lifting millions of Chinese out of poverty which is the main thrust of their economic development. I don't trust activists. They just want to tear things down which is a lot easier that building things up. As long as the corruption is kept in check, China will stumble along. The Chinese just want three square meals. They are a pragmatic people who love the good life as much as Americans. At any rate, all these macro stuff is just a big sideshow. Aren't you interested in the real issues the Buddha was concerned about?
Thank You.
I will consider all this.
I want you to know, I am not a Buddhist (you probably guessed) but respect people , perhaps like you, whom commit fully to a path. I am looking for more than I have found in other pious pursuits it is true. I am a dabbler (in Buddhism), but not a poser.
I , in the distant past, meditated but do not today. I think, and I think you think, I need to be quiet.
This will be very hard for me.
With regards to how they should be treated, everything that I have seen or read treats animals and humans as if they are the same thing.
To declare there's a difference is to assert our goofy self-centered human judgement: which doesn't work very well nor very often.
Maybe I'll draw the line with bacteria and algae so I can function on a daily basis, but when we get to living things with central nervous systems and brains..., then I gotta make the "equality" ruling stick.
Of course, if I had to choose between the lives of my cats or children the cats would have to go; but that's a terrible thought experiment; kind of like the *humorous* thought experiment you propose: me (us) being equal to a "silly monkey."
I enjoyed that. I'm going to google "silly monkey" right now. Results below:
Not technically a monkey, this is an ape. BUT yes, I'd have to say _I_ am equal to him (assuming it's a guy chimp)! I KNOW my co-workers are equal to him/her.
So are you, not being a Buddhist, the king of Atheists? Are you banging around here trying to get a rise out of yourself and others?
Oh, and China: I know much progress has been made in economic terms. The CITIES and denizens therein are content(?). The country folk however, in their hundreds of millions have heard there is nothing in the city any longer for which they can aspire, for which they can aim, to which they might hope to move and enjoy. There is a disconnect and someone better shut down the internet cafes in the little towns quick. Feudalism may make a big comeback in the outback, so to speak.
People wanted Chinese citizens to switch from a third world country to a modern country overnight. People were offended to see the working conditions of the sweet shops; ignoring that this was a necessary transition.
Life conditions in China have improved a thousand folds over the last few decades; the country is slowly but consistently walking in the right direction.
Especially with the business with other countries department. The ties with Japan, Korea and asia in general are great and soon will be valued more to those countries than the ties with the US.
On top of it, almost all world economy relies on China to some extend. China value to other countries and it's impact on their economy is constantly and slowly rising.
As opposed to the USA for example, walking slowly and consistently in the wrong direction.
From education to manufacturing to life conditions (giant 3rd world country level ghettos everywhere) to human rights; everything is going in a downward spiral.
USA value to other countries and it's impact on their economy is constantly and slowly falling; to eventually become irrelevant to most if it isn't already.
If you had to put money on a business in the stock market; put your money on the ones that are trending up; and bail on those trending down. Especially if those are 40 years long trends already.
The problem in China is there is disconnect between what the govt does & what the people want.
Dont forget that China is still a communist country with a capitalist economy.
That's like a vegetarian who eats steak.
My money is in the US, not for sentimental reasons but cold-calculating ones. China has a long way to go just to keep Chinese fed and housed at the basic level. If things are going gang-busters in China and the emerging Asia, that is because of massive amount of hot money flowing from the west hunting for higher returns in the east. China is still the factory floor of the planet and the rest of Asia is hanging onto China for dear economic life. China practices communism, a fact that is lost on a free-market world that would even trade with the devil just to avoid going underwater. If, for any reason the tide turns and hot money leaves Asia, the effect will be crippling. Until the, the dance goes on between the capitalist and the communist.
I am commenting on life, not politics.
Really?
Here I am in Buddhaland sitting in the jacuzzi filled with bubbly clean water. Is hermitwin justified in making me feel guilty because poor people have no clean water to drink?
I know of a guy who is as rich as cream, owns an ocean-going sailing yacht, travels across the globe and has to pay people to accompany him because he's a PITA alcoholic. Gee I wonder what that suffering is like?
Then there was that Harvard(?) study which showed poor people in the third world are happier than Americans living the "dream."
I forgot the name of the movie I saw where the migrant worker went through hell to get into the USA after enduring extreme disappointments and hardships in his own country. He wound up suffering under a nasty American "slave" driver while he was digging irrigation trenches in the sun in SoCal.
In the final scene he looked up at the sun, had a sudden rush of positive joy-filled emotions and thru that epiphany he realized how fortunate he was to simply to have his life!
Suffering, freedom from suffering: everybody can have it.
One must also recognize that what we do as people and as a nation can and does seriously impact others, that our intent should spring from love, equinimity and compassion.
With much metta,
Todd
So what is actually happening as my attention is directed hither? Like a droplet falling from the sky sermon.
falling falling rain drops are falling on my tongue!