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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@zidangus I guess that I believe that conciousness is a fundamental part of the universe like matter and energy. So with this view I don't see things like karma, rebirth, or enlightment as something magical. They're just laws of the universe that we don't understand scientifically. This really is a lot of conjecture and "gut feeling" though, so I don't cling to tightly to it.
None of the above because I don't think it matters. I don't think knowing the answer would change anything. If the universe is beginningless, ok, what then? If the universe started with the big bang and did not exist before that, ok, what then? Would it really change anything that is important?
This could be said of everything and anything. So what your trying to say is that nothing really matters right ?
If Siddhattha Gotama, had this attitude and did not ask questions of this nature, would he have gained his insight ?
An interesting question in itself :rolleyes:
With Metta
I think it could be interesting intellectually. But I think he taught that this particular question and the pursuit of it, does not really lead to insight. I think he taught that the investigation of suffering is what leads to insight. I think he did ask questions like this, but those questions pertained to suffering and the end of suffering. But of course that does not mean that there is anything wrong with this particular question unless you approach it with a "need to know" attitude. I think it could be interesting, intellectually.
@person, I have this gut feeling also, I believe that when Siddhattha Gotama gained his insight, it was a deep connection with the universe that he experienced.
There is a theory that our universe has a membrane and there are many universe that sort of float around. What caused our universe as we know it now is because it collided with another universe and the membrane rippled and everything came into being as we know it now. I personally do not think that it is a result of a black hole
None of the above because I don't think it matters. I don't think knowing the answer would change anything. If the universe is beginningless, ok, what then? If the universe started with the big bang and did not exist before that, ok, what then? Would it really change anything that is important?
I just don't believe your answer represents reality.
Do you ever go to movie? Watch an entertainment show on television? Listen to music? Read a novel? Eat a pizza? Go to a dance recital? Read a poem?
None of those things "matter" in the sense that you're talking about. Yet, most of us do all or some of them because we are humans, and not JUST Buddhists.
There is a theory that our universe has a membrane and there are many universe that sort of float around. What caused our universe as we know it now is because it collided with another universe and the membrane rippled and everything came into being as we know it now. I personally do not think that it is a result of a black hole
Ajaan Geoff/Thanissaro Bhikkhu clarification: my intention was not to get you all to stop discussing this or point the finger about you doing it...Aj. Geoff has done plenty of speculation about chaos and quantum theory which necessarily involves these "conjecturables"...i doubt he (or Buddha) meant literal insanity...as a conjecture addict, i took AG's/Buddha's words to heart as an instruction to slow down a bit and return my attention back to present moment experience...plus, i personally think there's value in "the contemplative path..." may you all find the causes of true happiness within
Meh, I am young and have many lives ahead and behind me. I am not do not have any major problems right now with contemplating such interesting matters. There are enough hours in the cultivate the dharma and think of such things
Here is a succession of videos explaining the latest theory of the universe and everything that is. It correlates to buddhist cosmology and I know science itself will never lead to liberation as the tools used for observation and measurement are illusions in themselves. But yes, if you are interested, give them a look. I posted them in another thread also..
(This is taken from Sutta #2 of the Majhimma Nikaya. The Sutta is called 'All the Taints.' It is a Sutta describing the abandoning of the taints. Taints = cause of suffering, and non-taints = liberation from suffering)
... (TAINTS TO BE ABANDONED BY SEEING) 5. "What taints, bikkhus, should be abandoned by seeing? Here bikkhus an untaught, ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, does not understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he attends to those things unfit for attention and he does not attend to those things fit for attention. 6. "What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him, and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to. And what are the things fit for attention that he does not attend to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire is abandoned, the unarisen taint of being does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of being is abandoned, the unarisen taint of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance is abandoned. These are the things fit for attention that he does not attend to. By attending to things unfit for attention, and by not attending to things fit for attention, both unarisen taints arise in him, and arisen taints increase. 7. "This is how he attends unwisely: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go? 8. "When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view ' self exists for me; arises in him as true and established; or the view 'no self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self with self' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive not-self with self' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self with not-self' arises in him as true and established; or else he has come to such view as this: 'It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity'. This speculative view, bikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from birth, aging, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say. 9. "Bikkhus, a well taught noble disciple, who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he does not attend to those things unfit for attention and he attends to those things fit for attention. 10. "What are the things unfit for attention that he does not attend to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him, and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he does not attend to. And what are the things fit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire is abandoned, the unarisen taint of being does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of being is abandoned, the unarisen taint of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance is abandoned. These are the things fit for attention that he attends to. By not attending to things unfit for attention, and by attending to things fit for attention, unarisen taints do not arise in him, and arisen taints are abandoned. 11. "He attends wisely: 'This is suffering'; he attends wisely: 'This is the cause of suffering'; he attends wisely 'This is the cessation of suffering'; he attends wisely: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. these are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.
Effectively what the Buddha is saying is that when some one who seeks and end of suffering attends unwisely he actually prolongs his suffering and creates new suffering. But that when some one who seeks and end of suffering attends wisely he ends suffering, and does not create new suffering.
What does the Buddha say is attending unwisely? You can read it for yourself in paragraph 7, however it could be said that by asking unnecessary, deep, philosophical questions, one is attending unwisely. And what does the Buddha say is attending wisely? The Buddha says that applying ones mind towards the understanding of the four noble truths (suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering), they are attending wisely.
What is happening in this thread? Unnecessary, deep, philosophical questions are being asked. According to the Buddha (who is indeed, as we accept him, a perfectly awakened being who teaches a Dhamma that we apparently accept and practice), these unnecessary, deep, philosophical questions lead to suffering.
If you wish to practice the teachings of the Buddha's teachings, and actually gain a true understanding of the universe and all it's secrets, you should practice what the Buddha tells us to practice. And what is it that the Buddha has instructed us to practice. He has instructed us to apply our minds to understanding and applying the four noble truths.
What are the four noble truths? Suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
What is suffering? Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering, pain, grief, sorrow, lamentation, and despair are suffering. In short these five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
What is the cause of suffering. It is this craving that is the cause of suffering. Craving for birth, craving for death, craving for feelings.
What is the cessation of suffering? It is the complete, remainderless, and total fading away of this same craving.
And what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this noble eightfold path. That is; conducive view, conducive intention, conducive speech, conducive action, conducive livelihood, conducive effort, conducive mindfulness, and conducive concentration.
I am speaking personally here, and I understand the sutta extract that being said, but I have not suffered as a result of watching videos about the universe or thinking about that huge cosmos out there. In fact, at times when I have had hardship in my life, I have gone out to the pier, led on my back and gazed up at the stars and found tranqulity in all its mass and beauty. I am not attached to it, I do not drive myself crazy about why it is there or how it got there, I take it for what it is. I am not a monk and cannot meditate or cultivate the dharma 100% of the time, to me, this is nothing big unless you make it your life and give yourself a headache trying to figure it all out.
I appreciate you trying to point out what the buddha said, but with this day and age and the advances of technology, it is hard sometimes to escape what is being found out.
@zidangus I guess that I believe that conciousness is a fundamental part of the universe like matter and energy. So with this view I don't see things like karma, rebirth, or enlightment as something magical. They're just laws of the universe that we don't understand scientifically. This really is a lot of conjecture and "gut feeling" though, so I don't cling to tightly to it.
I have a similar understanding. Also, science follows a reductionist approach, which is inherently incomplete. Mind exists, but it is too elusive for matter-centered science.
Comments
With Metta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole
Do you ever go to movie? Watch an entertainment show on television? Listen to music? Read a novel? Eat a pizza? Go to a dance recital? Read a poem?
None of those things "matter" in the sense that you're talking about. Yet, most of us do all or some of them because we are humans, and not JUST Buddhists.
This is the cyclic model,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_Model
I Googled it a few years ago and didn't find much. I see that the idea is catching on haha.
may you all find the causes of true happiness within
...
(TAINTS TO BE ABANDONED BY SEEING)
5. "What taints, bikkhus, should be abandoned by seeing? Here bikkhus an untaught, ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, does not understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he attends to those things unfit for attention and he does not attend to those things fit for attention.
6. "What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him, and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to. And what are the things fit for attention that he does not attend to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire is abandoned, the unarisen taint of being does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of being is abandoned, the unarisen taint of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance is abandoned. These are the things fit for attention that he does not attend to. By attending to things unfit for attention, and by not attending to things fit for attention, both unarisen taints arise in him, and arisen taints increase.
7. "This is how he attends unwisely: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?
8. "When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view ' self exists for me; arises in him as true and established; or the view 'no self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self with self' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive not-self with self' arises in him as true and established; or the view 'I perceive self with not-self' arises in him as true and established; or else he has come to such view as this: 'It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity'. This speculative view, bikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from birth, aging, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say.
9. "Bikkhus, a well taught noble disciple, who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he does not attend to those things unfit for attention and he attends to those things fit for attention.
10. "What are the things unfit for attention that he does not attend to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him, and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he does not attend to. And what are the things fit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of sensual desire is abandoned, the unarisen taint of being does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of being is abandoned, the unarisen taint of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen taint of ignorance is abandoned. These are the things fit for attention that he attends to. By not attending to things unfit for attention, and by attending to things fit for attention, unarisen taints do not arise in him, and arisen taints are abandoned.
11. "He attends wisely: 'This is suffering'; he attends wisely: 'This is the cause of suffering'; he attends wisely 'This is the cessation of suffering'; he attends wisely: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. these are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.
Effectively what the Buddha is saying is that when some one who seeks and end of suffering attends unwisely he actually prolongs his suffering and creates new suffering. But that when some one who seeks and end of suffering attends wisely he ends suffering, and does not create new suffering.
What does the Buddha say is attending unwisely? You can read it for yourself in paragraph 7, however it could be said that by asking unnecessary, deep, philosophical questions, one is attending unwisely. And what does the Buddha say is attending wisely? The Buddha says that applying ones mind towards the understanding of the four noble truths (suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering), they are attending wisely.
What is happening in this thread? Unnecessary, deep, philosophical questions are being asked. According to the Buddha (who is indeed, as we accept him, a perfectly awakened being who teaches a Dhamma that we apparently accept and practice), these unnecessary, deep, philosophical questions lead to suffering.
If you wish to practice the teachings of the Buddha's teachings, and actually gain a true understanding of the universe and all it's secrets, you should practice what the Buddha tells us to practice. And what is it that the Buddha has instructed us to practice. He has instructed us to apply our minds to understanding and applying the four noble truths.
What are the four noble truths? Suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
What is suffering? Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering, pain, grief, sorrow, lamentation, and despair are suffering. In short these five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
What is the cause of suffering. It is this craving that is the cause of suffering. Craving for birth, craving for death, craving for feelings.
What is the cessation of suffering? It is the complete, remainderless, and total fading away of this same craving.
And what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this noble eightfold path. That is; conducive view, conducive intention, conducive speech, conducive action, conducive livelihood, conducive effort, conducive mindfulness, and conducive concentration.
Good luck.
I appreciate you trying to point out what the buddha said, but with this day and age and the advances of technology, it is hard sometimes to escape what is being found out.