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How do we know the Buddha and Path are reliable?
Jeffrey
Veteran
So how do we know that the Buddha and Path are reliable. That they are completely and absolutely entirely and literaly leading (lead) to freedom from suffering?
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Comments
Really, is this necessary?
I mean, is it really?
Do you really need to repeat things?
at the end of the day it either sounds like rubbish or it all hits home.
do it yourself and see if it works. if it works you get confidence in the dharma. if it doesn't. you get disillusioned.
lol
i'd rather use a word like confidence.
but eventually even that confidence is dropped, because one will one day see how reality is.
your mind is the one asking questions.
all your answers are in the heart.
But the question is on the path and buddha. Without establishing the path including sutras we cannot establish the buddha.
And indeed we cannot know if stream entry exists until we match our experience to stream entry.
without right view there is no path.
thus the goal is to have an existential realization of right view.
the unshakable faith arises from ones own awakening into the nature of reality.
now whether they become a stream-enterer or a full on arhat all depends on how far they dive into the rabbit hole.
prior to awakening, one must test the four noble truths. are these correct? the buddha talked about an objective truth that applied in every situation. based on my observation and experience he nailed it with the four noble truths. they're always going to be right, since they have been right in my own personal experience.
work on what works for you. don't concern yourself with others.
The same in Buddhism. To get enlightened we have to use either wisdom or faith. Faith-followers and Dharma-followers, these are two main types of followers, so without faith but a lot of wisdom you could still get there. But of course a combination of both is also possible.
we do that through meditation. we sit there and deal with all the shit that arises.
stuff from the past. stuff in relation to the future.
we sit there until we realize the dharma. not intellectually, but until we realize we ourselves are the embodiment of truth.
we ourselves have experienced the four noble truths. we ourselves are a living example of truth.
all we can do is sincerely observe and be honest with our own experiences. when we sit in meditation, we come with a lot of things, but the goal is to leave with nothing. to just sit here and be the space that allows for all the suffering to happen.
in a way when you accept suffering with all your heart. notice the word heart. YOUR MIND CANNOT ACCEPT SUFFERING. the heart can endure. when you accept it all. your suffering and the suffering of others. that is true liberation. running away from suffering. or denying it is just the mind working. the unconditional heart accepts it all.
You can really test the 4 noble truths in meditation. For example when you are attached to thinking about the future, but can drop it for a while you'll feel more peaceful. And if you don't feel peaceful, all craving just makes things worse.
Of course this is not a full realization of the dhamma, but at least it gives some confidence. This will grow and grow if you continue the practice.
yes i like how you break down and give the examples of different paths.
there is the faith based path which in a way is devotional. this path is just like christianity. it is the path of the heart.
there is also the wisdom path which is based more on philosophy and insight. this is the path of the mind.
and there is the combination of both heart and mind. the buddha is the embodiment of both heart and mind. both working equally together.
so in a way one may begin with the mind, but end up with the heart.
one may begin with the heart and end up with the mind.
I often have times when suffering lessens, but the release of its grip is almost miraculous. Obviously I cannot will it or thats what I would choose to do at all times. We can observe that we are suffering. And tune into that experience. We can try out the 8 fold path and 'shim it' or see what advice of the eightfold path is helpful. We can study and meditate and hope right view dawns on us. Its kind of frightening. Theres always some teachers who warn that you can practice for years and it doesn't change much.
I know my Buddhist path started with reasoning on what the Buddhist teachings say, then this led to faith being developed once I convinced myself that the teachings seemed logical, and this faith has been growing each day I see small but noticeable differences to my attitudes and behaviour, though I cannot confess to any big inspiring insight, I can see the gradual changes.
If it doesn't change much at least it changed a little. If it doesn't change little, you're not doing the correct practice.
"For Christians there is never a time when faith is no longer important, for the tenets of their belief are not experientially validated in the same way as the doctrines of Buddhism. For Buddhists, faith, while it is necessary in the first phase of development, is something that eventually becomes transformed. In Buddhism, there is a vast difference between believing that all things are impermanent and realizing that they are; but before that belief becomes true knowledge, one must practice in the faith that it is so, and will eventually be proven to be so by one's experience... Acceptance of Buddhist doctrines is provisional because of the necessity of eventually replacing faith in them with experiential knowledge. Thus faith is anticipation of validation... And because Zen Buddhism as a religion is based on each individual's realization of the Buddha's own enlightenment, ideally, there can never be a question of reliance on faith alone throughout life."
So... you won't know unless you try! Faith in the Buddhadharma is provisional (again, just more skillful means) and should, over time, with practise, be replaced with realisation. In other words, faith does eventually outlive its use. This is indeed "faith," but it doesn't have exactly the same function as it does in Christianity.
so right now all i see is my computer and various other things on my table.
that's all there is. my problems aren't here with me, unless i allow them to be here with me.
so again all suffering is a choice. many people would disagree, but i am asserting that all suffering is a choice.
you choose what to bring in this moment. either a happy thought or a sad thought. up to you. even if a thought asserts itself, you have a choice on how to respond to that thought or even just ignore it. so say a sad thought pops up. i can just laugh at it or i can just watch it do its thing. when you are mindful of the arising and falling of thoughts and feelings, they LOSE their power. Just be as aware/mindful as you possible can RIGHT NOW.
That will be your foundation to everything. That will be the teacher that will teach you everything. That will be what brings you your freedom from all the suffering. That space you create, where you are just mindful of things arising and falling. From here you can develop the courage to allow things to just be. From here you can develop the compassion even for your suffering and even for yourself. From here you can watch all your thoughts and feelings in a detached but accepting point of view. The MIND judges and asserts a position on what is suffering and what isn't. Ignore the mind. Just watch it.
Watching here and now. That is the only thing we all have to do.
Just be and watch your thinking and emotions.
Meditation is simple. The MIND complicates.
Hell you don't even need to meditate. Just here right now BE MINDFUL.
If we can confirm our suffering & its causes are as the Buddha taught then this is a step in gaining confidence in the dhammas pertaining to freedom from suffering.
If we can agree with the teacher about suffering & its causes then we can probably offer a little trust to the teacher about suffering's cessation.
Kind regards
I don't see how the Kalama Suttra has anything do do with it. That was instructions to lay people about how to discern between false teachers and those who truly know the dharma. Jeffrey's asking a completely different question.
Chapter 1 ...(Meditation: Why Should I Bother?)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html
He gives a good overview of why we should practice. Is the path reliable? I can't answer that for you. I can say for myself my study began years ago by picking up a book that had some decent Japanese artwork in it, it was cheap, I like art so I bought it. It also had a section on Zen Buddhist philosophy and how it influenced Japan. I read that and said "that makes sense". It blew me away, I had never heard anything like it.I find the Dhamma full of wisdom and truth. It works for me and has led to some very good things in my life. Does it make sense to you? Is it fruitful practice for you? Does it work in your life? Is it reliable right now? Does knitting or Christianity (to use your examples)answer these questions in the affirmative?
All the best Jeffrey,
Todd
All the best,
Todd
My point is that I first experienced in my heart what liberation felt like and then realized to which tradition it was connected to. To be more accurate, I had a feeling of freedom, and expansion in my heart, and I said to my self as I was in this deep trance state, this is liberation. But from my spiritual experience you cannot sustain this state for long, for you are a human being. You can strive to keep up, but for me as long as we have a human nature you cannot avoid suffering, or craving but you can train yourself little by little to lessen its impact in your life. One master said it is not how long you can sustain the state of tranquillity or equanimity, as it is referred to in Buddhism, but how quickly you can return to it. Even only taking refuge to the Buddha can make a huge difference in your life...
It is, of course, not the first question that they will have been asking. Just like Gotama, we each encounter the reality of what we come to call dukkha. "Why is there all this sh*t?" we ask ourselves and set off looking for answers.
The contemporary emphasis of empirical evidence as we encounter the panoply of "answers" that are offered forces the "How do we know?" question on us. The problem, as William James encountered, is that empirical proof is not available, only personal experience. And other people's experience remains anecdotal to us unless we trust that other. This is the circularity of any argument about the authority of the Teachers. Moses on the mountain, Mohammed and Gabriel, Gotama under his tree - where do we put our trust?
It is not enough to tell people to try it because the very act of trying has a deep psychological effect, as Pascal notes. In fact, trying a particular discipline will, to some extent, bring heart and mind into alignment too and become a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is the danger of the radicalising process: we are very open to persuasion.
In answer to the question of 'reliability', it all depends, as ever, on what we mean by 'reliable'. I imagine that there are many, both here and around the world, who are testing or have tested a Buddhist way without really reliable, permanent effects. They may add "yet" or they may have given up as a bad job. I know quite a few and I realise that I cannot persuade them.
So, in answer to the question, we come to know that the way is reliable because we persuade ourselves that it is. Not very comforting but just the way we are.
Thank's for the post.
>>>>So, in answer to the question, we come to know that the way is reliable because we persuade ourselves that it is. Not very comforting but just the way we are.
Can it not be: We come to know that the way is reliable because it is reliable.
peace
This is coming from experience and asking the same questions.
Sit regularly and with resolve, and you'll have your answers
That's why they call it a leap of faith.
And to Mod Fed, it's a valid question to be repeated and that is necessary to be asked along the path.
Happy Vesak's Day to one & all!