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The mind of a socio-pathic
LostLight
Veteran
Recently a 20 year old kid went to a kindergarten and killed the class and other faculty with guns. I always assumed that these kind of people can only exist due to a massive mental illness that is incurable. Therefor, my take on live and let live changes when I consider someone flawed to the core. There are people that do bad things, and there are creatures with no sense of judgement. The killer is dead, but I've been thinking hypothetically; I don't think the death penalty should be used on people, but someone like this who I wouldn't consider a person...I'm not sure how I'd feel about that.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
0
Comments
In contrast the other axis deals with personality disorders. These are the people who have no remorse to killing in some instances.
Psychotic means you have delusions and/or hallucinations. Psychotic people have a LOWER incidence of violence than non-psychotic in all categories except violence committed against their self.
So your title should be 'the mind of a socio-pathic' rather than manic or psychotic.
A manic wants to have sex with everyone not kill them
The other aspect of it is that if we take away any further opportunity for growth in a place where they can no longer cause harm (jail) they'll just reincarnate as exactly what they were before, therefore not fixing his problem (his spiritual sickness) merely delaying it's consequences. Whether you believe this or not depends on your tradition.
The death penalty has more to do with vengeance than justice. It serves only our interpretation of justice, and has nothing to do with divine justice (karma). As people, we want to see others suffer for their sins. We want results. We want to see justice in action and we want it to meet our standards. And that's all the death penalty does. It soothes our (angry and afraid in the face of such evil) ego for a little while. It doesn't truly "justify" or rectify or change anything.
Frankly, this is the most horrifying thing I have heard for a long time. It's just awful. Awful. In so many ways. But I still would not advocate for the death penalty were the shooter still alive.
Even though it is impossible to understand, you have to be able to separate the actions of a person from the person themselves. We are all the same at the core, why some people have such horrible muddiness blocking their true nature, we'll never really know but in Buddhism it does have to do with Karma oftentimes. NO I am not saying those who died deserved to die due to Karma. It is difficult for any of us to comprehend and all we can do is trust what we believe to be the truth and do our best to act accordingly on our own. What to do about guns, or criminals or the people who are so mentally ill they are capable of gunning down 5 year olds, I don't have an answer. But the shooter was clearly suffering as well.
It is easy to criticize when your life is radically different. But you are him in the sense that there is no self. Born in the same life, making the same decisions, you would have met the same demise. You just so happen to have been blessed to learn the Noble Eightfold Path, to grow up in the right circumstance, and to be allowed access to others' ideas.
That is the way I approach it.
However, put such a person in the room with me right now while I'm angry and, in spite of my opposition to the death penalty, I'd about guarantee that said person wouldn't leave the room. Just reading this story, I'm furious.
But that's why we have the legal system, to act reasonably and objectively where the mob - myself included, but especially relatives or friends of victims - would act emotionally and violently.
I'm too angry and disgusted to make a relevant point. I'm not in the mood to empathise or put my foot in the shoes of the evil filth behind such an attack. I can only hope that the families and friends of those killed, and the families and friends of the killer(s), can come to terms with this senseless act.
All that said, if someone violently ripped one of my loved ones away from me, I would very probably want them dead. However, just because I may want it doesn't mean that it's right. Sometimes it is really necessary for cooler heads to prevail. Justice should ultimately be about more than what feels satisfying in the heat of the moment.
What happened is terrible -- I have a hard time just wrapping my head around it. However, having the death penalty as an option wouldn't have changed what happened nor does it make society any safer.
If we can't protect the children of the world against senseless violence, we can cry along with their parents and families and community.
As a school principal, I used to think about this kind of scenario and what would I do to save as many kids and teachers as I could. Today I cried.
But I like what Jay Carney said: this isn't the time for the gun control talk. So I won't say anything else, but I find the "blood on their hands" comment really harsh and untrue.
Someone today stabbed 22 children in China.
I think our obsession with violence has some to do with it. I think our lack of understanding, compassion, and proper care of the mentally ill (and proper recognition and means to treat them even against their will) is another part of it. Our priorities are another part.
However, even though these events shake us out of our little lives and scare us, it's important to remember that every day, more people come to the side of love and compassion (and I'm not just saying Buddhism) than shoot up schools. As Buddha said, you cannot cease hate with hate. Only with love. That means love for ALL, including those that rain down pain on others.
:thumbdown:
The thing is we do not know this kid's upbringing and/or mental health. We only know that no morally/mentally normal person premeditates killing their mother with a bunch of children. Like I said before, it's different when free will is taken out of the equation due to what I would consider insanity. Yes, we would do the same thing if we were him, because we wouldn't be able to comprehend our actions.
I'm all for freedom, but if your freedom is killing others for fun, I don't think I want you to play with others. Do you not agree that if you know someone plans to kill a ton of people for sport, you'd want him kept in a place where he couldn't act on it?
Just because one person has a decent life after having a horrible childhood, does not mean we can, or should, expect the same from others in similar situations. All people are different, they react differently to situations. I have an aunt and uncle who were alcoholics for a large part of the time their kids were underage. They have 4 kids. 1 of them died at 40 of a genetic disease, but he was a decent guy despite what he went through. Successful small business, nice family. Good to people around him, happy, not an alcoholic. The eldest is schizophrenic and in and out of jail due to the fact they cannot hold him in a ward for nothing, even though he acts out violently frequently. I don't blame the aunt/uncle for this of course, but from a young age he had many problems and they refused to have him tested, despite several requests from the school and others in his life. He spent many years without meds and on drugs trying to fix the issue himself and now has a severely damaged brain. The oldest daughter is an alcoholic who has never led a life of any worth (she is 45) and gave birth to 3 children who she raised poorly who will never likely contribute anything to the world. The oldest of her children died after a police chase during which he swallowed a bag of drugs. He was 27. Her middle one almost died in a car crash during a police crash 1 year after the other one died. The youngest is a teenager who spends his time giving teachers the finger. The last child of my aunt is a functional alcoholic with a cabinet full of anxiety meds. She has a husband, 2 popular teenagers, and a nice house, but barely holds her life together by a thread. 4 kids, 4 different outcomes of severely neglectful and alcoholic parents.
One person who has a decent life doesn't mean all of them will. It doesn't mean all of them CAN. If it were simply a matter of choice, then all of them would lead good lives. No one says "well, my childhood sucked, but I think I'd like to be the same kind of parent my parents were, have a sucky life, never have a decent job or a decent home. Sell my childrens toys to a pawn shop for beer money and wake up often in the backseat of a car."
Sorry for the long story, but I'm just saying we don't know anything about this kid. His parents, seem to have been respected, successful people. Ironically, his dad worked as a higher up in the tax department at GE energy. (I say that because of a discussion where I brought up GEs bad tax practices, not saying it has anything to do with the shooting, of course) What went wrong? Kids who do bad things don't always come from bad families. But we certainly expect them too because we cannot fathom that parents do all the right things to raise good children and have them turn out to be mass murderers. Yet it happens, over and over again.
I won't pat myself on the back just yet, but I will say that my not being a homicidal maniac has nothing to do with a lack of opportunity.
At this point in my life I am confident that I am not filled with hate. I would know it if I was.
In fact my life has been filled with beauty and good people. And struggles and a good measure of anger at times. Not so much hate. If it happens, I will certainly find a way to address it without being violent.
You should really try to describe your own experiences rather than assuming that everyone sees things the same way that you do.
Not to worry @maryanne, I'm not getting trolled. Maybe I am. Doesn't matter.
My lama made a comment one day that struck home: He knew a guy who was attracted to one of the dharma members in our group, and this guy asked the lama to introduce him to her. The lama did, and the two people ended up getting married. And later on, divorced. Sitting around with the lama one day, he commented that he was sharing in the karmas of their divorce, seeing as he was the one who introduced them.
When you shop at Walmart, you share in the karmas of the sweatshops in Third World countries. When you support the easy gun control laws, you share in the karma of what those guns are used for.
We are all linked. All are interdependent. And that includes the karmas. It is not advisable to ignore this reality.
And this really goes back to what I have said on some other matters. Real compassion isn't feeling sad about something. Real compassion is doing something about it (yes, I realize we each can't work on solving every world problem...we have to pick and choose).
As I was thinking about the Connecticut situation all day long yesterday, and considering how appalled I am that a whole classroom of kindergarten children were murdered in a place that should have been safe, it reminded me that although I am very gun-control-minded, I've never actually done one single thing about it. So my resolve over the next few days is to find the best organization to do something with to actually attempt to make a difference.
I was spurred on even more last night by watching Piers Morgan when he was interviewing 2 men who were "pro-gun", and listening tho their sickening mantra. Someone needs to stand up to these jerk-offs.
I would be interested to hear what plan the gun control people have for getting rid of the weapons that are already out there...millions of them. If you find out, please let me know. I'm not saying it's not a worthy cause, I'm actually interested in what they would like to see happen *other* than simply putting more laws into place on top of ones that already do not work. I don't have an answer. I don't support the everyday person have access to weapons meant for police and military (including bullet proof gear) and I don't support the average person having access to weapons with clips that hold 20-30-40 or more bullets. There is just simply no need for it, not for hunting and not for protection. What need a single women living in a cozy smallish town needed with 3 semi automatic weapons is beyond me.
We have guns in our house. But every one of them (we have 4 total) are hunting guns. They are never loaded. They are never accessible. The ammo is never stored with them (although you can buy ammo here at the gas station as long as you are old enough, it's not exactly hard to get for rifles and shotguns). They have trigger locks and are locked in a gun safe, and the ammo is locked up separately. The keys for each are kept separately and not within our house. My kids have grown up in a hunting culture. Until Columbine, kids here learned gun safety as part of their school curriculum here, IN the school. Our elem school has a gun range in it for crying out loud. They learn what guns do and how to act around them and how to treat them from a very young age. I'm not anti-gun. But I'm anti lack of common sense, and anti lack of any sort of gun training or requiesits (i give up spelling that, lol) short of a proper age and clear criminal record for purchasing semi automatic weapons and hand guns.
It's just a horrid circle we go in. Someone shoots up a place. We feel unsafe and scared, so we buy guns to protect ourselves and then people take those guns and shoot up another place and we buy more guns. They don't keep us safe and the mentality that they do needs to stop. The idea that the more people who arm themselves the safer we will be? Holy smokes. The LAST thing we need is more people scared to death stashing weapons in their waist bands and going to school to teach and going to movies etc. Yikes.
I don't think the answer is an easy one, whatever it is. But I find it ridiculous that we think MORE guns is the answer in a country that has an absurd # of gun deaths.In the past 2 weeks there have been 3 high profile gun deaths (that killed 33 people) and that doesn't include the people who died in accidents (one in my state last week, 4 year old boy killed his 2 year old brother). I'm not convinced simply making guns illegal to have is the answer when there are so many out there. But having more most certainly is not.
I don't know if you recall me talking about my schizophrenic cousin. He has attacked friends with baseball bats. Been in jail for assault many times. For a very long time he lived with his mom, who is married to a man who "collects" hand guns. They are all over the house, and he takes them in the back yard to shoot them. AND then run an elderly foster care program (live in) in their home! That shouldn't be allowed. They shouldn't be allowed to have a collection of semi automatic hand guns in the situation they live in, yet it's perfectly legal because THEY are not mentally ill.
But I agree with you, to a point. Nobody with a mental illness should have access to a weapon, whether they own it or not. But what I said before still stands, and the story about your cousin illustrates it well - if it isn't guns it's something else. Do we have to ban baseball, too? Do we have to ban cooking (knives)? Do we have to ban handy-men (hammers etc.)? Anything is a weapon if you're feeling creative enough. You can make a bomb out of crap from your kitchen.
There is a middle ground. There always is. But taking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens doesn't magically remove them from the hands of criminals who, by definition, don't give a crap about the law.
We have very stringent gun laws in Canada. Weapons are tightly controlled and you have to pass safety tests and a criminal record and mental health check before you can buy a gun which you then, nine times out of ten have to register. We have strict storage laws, and you have to call the police to let them know if you plan to travel with your weapon, even just to go to the range for an hour.
I watched a show last night about gangsters in my city. They all had guns. Even some automatic military grade weapons. You think they bought them lawfully? Well, they didn't, which is why after the filming they were all arrested.
Laws don't affect the criminals, they affect the law abiding people. The ones who don't shoot up schools, but hunt for their families or shoot skeet for fun or defend themselves against intruders.
Yes, if someone is set on being violent, they will find a way. But guns provide an angry person an immediate outlet of their violence whereas other methods do not, not nearly as much.
I don't know the answer either, what to do about the millions of guns already out there, which is why I asked Vinlyn to let me know if he hears about any workable solution. I certainly don't think saying "Hey all you people who legally own and register your guns have to turn them in, they are illegal now" is a workable answer. Which is why I hesitate to believe any further gun laws are going to make a difference in the US. Nor will education, because they have been educating forever and it hasn't worked. I think the answer is going to be to evaluate the causes (which is pretty hard when almost all of them commit suicide) and deal with the root of the problem, which is not the guns. The misuse of guns is the result of the problem, and we don't know yet what the problem is.
He was arrested because the police determined that if he had been storing his guns and ammo according to the law, there would be no way he would have the time to load and fire his weapon. The whole case was ridiculous... I can't even describe it. I'm not sure what happened, or if it's still ongoing, but he was facing jail time for defending himself, and actually shooting nobody.
It's absolutely retarded.
Somewhere between what we have and what you have would probably be the best thing. The middle, I guess.
I wish that the mechanisms developed for easily killing others could be seen for what they are, followed with the question of why we need them. When I was a teenager, I developed some proficiency with hand guns. Somewhere within the grace of meditation I later saw the idiocy of my efforts to make myself feel secure.
Threatening that attachment touches the very crutch of the human ego which I'm sure the following postings will attest to..
Our own cowardice, being poorly paid off once again with another horror story.
It's sad what happened in the US. Shocking!
The answer is not in my opinion for everyone to go out and get a gun. Our theory on peace seems to be that peace is having the bigger stick at all times. There is no way to get rid of all the guns, unless by some miracle, so the best we can do is understand that change starts with us and the way we view things. Change starts with the human heart.
Having been born and raised in Arizona by a Vietnam veteran who always has guns around, I understand the other side of things as much as the next person. The mentality I was brought up around was that killing animals with guns was fun and perfectly normal, and that it was ok to kill people as long as it was self defense. It took a long time for me to realize otherwise. I found that peace isn't having the biggest stick at all times, but laying down the sticks. Fear ensues more fear.
There truly is no easy answer to any of this and I know that my own views have just as many flaws and nieve ideals as the next person.
I also know my opinion on the matter will just be ridiculed, as it has been here in Arizona for as long as I can remember, and I accept that. I hold no judgments, and I love everyone unconditionally. Take the victory, I am not fighting with anyone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
We own the most guns, BY FAR and we have the most gun deaths in the developed world BY FAR. 3 people per 100,000 in the US die by gun. .5 of 100,000 in Canada do.
Japan has one of the lowest gun rates in the world because they are basically outlawed entirely.
Guns make it easy to make a snap decision and to stay removed from the crime by simply pulling a trigger. Crimes like assault by strangling, stabbing, baseball bat bashing require a certain amount of personal interaction that most people prefer to avoid. We are a stressed out, anxious, depressed nation with unprecedented access to guns. Wonder why there is a problem.
Also, the countries, take Canada, that do have gun ownership in the 30-40% range (compared to our almost 90%) have stricter requirements for those who have them. Not just anyone can run to a gun show and come home with an arsenal like here.
I'm not saying the entire problem is the # of guns. But it is part of the problem and it is impossible to deny that. Also, how we manage our mentally ill. Also how we treat people in general. If it was an easy answer we'd already have the solution. But to pretend the # of guns people have isn't a problem is just crazy.
March 11, 2009 - GERMANY - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police.
June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - A gunman opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. The gunman then killed himself.
July 22, 2011 - NORWAY - A gunman blew up a government building in Oslo and then opened fire at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the holiday island of Utoeya, killing 77 people.
The US has had a particularly bad year, but it is typical for such crimes to coincide with economic problems as well and also typical for crimes to happen in succession due to so-called copy cats who may not have acted if not for the attention spooned upon the one who did.
I agree, and I think really we are on the same page. Gun law isn't the only answer, but it needs to be part of it and we can do far better than we do now. People running around with guns with minimal or no training is most certainly not making us safer.