Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Can we progress in Dharma without renunciation?

Can we progress in Dharma without renunciation?

According to Tsem Rinpoche, "No true Dharma can ever arise without true insight into renunciation. Therefore true Dharma practice only starts from having unwavering renunciation" (extracted from http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/great-lamas-masters/renunciation-by-lama-yeshe.html) In that article, Rinpoche shares the insight into renunciation by Lama Yeshe, who also talks about Bodhicitta and Shunyata in that same talk.

Lama Yeshe says "What binds us to samsara? What makes us unhappy? Our lack of renunciation. We are unhappy because we crave and grasp sensory samsaric objects. We are seeking to solve our problems, but we are not looking for the solution in the right place. The right place is where we loosen our own grasping."

What do you think?

Comments

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    I think that when we begin to meditate we begin to see through the veil of this conceptual world we have created. In time we begin to slowly let go and not cling to these illusions. If that can be called renunciation, then sure I think that is very important. I don't think it can forced or intellectually grasped.
    Al the best,
    Todd
    BunksBhikkhuJayasaraInvincible_summer
  • @Theswingisyellow thanks for sharing that... yes i do think that renunciation happens over time from contemplation of the lack of existence the things we are attached to. You can try to be renounced but it doesn't work unless we realise it and internalise it. By the way, do read the blog post because it is an amazing summary of the three principal paths - renunciation, bodhicitta and shunyata!
  • edited February 2013
    There is no path without renunciation. Which doesn't mean we need to physically get rid of everything, as the text says. Getting rid of something you're not ready to get rid of just for the sake of renunciation would be an act of aversion. Would be rather ungenuine. As thewingisyellow said, it is something that happens gradually through meditation. So the only thing we need to renounce is the fetters of attachment, aversion and delusion. By doing so, the things of the world on bother us. As Ajahn Chah put it, we can grab things by the hand, not by the heart. Hope it helped.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited February 2013
    It's always about attachments. It's interesting how much complexity we can indulge in trying to make our way around that issue.
    sharonsaw
  • Where is the line drawn between "something I really enjoy" and an "attachment"? Is 'attachment' another word for 'addiction'?
    Jeffreysharonsaw
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Where is the line drawn between "something I really enjoy" and an "attachment"? Is 'attachment' another word for 'addiction'?

    To me, that is the question.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Attachment for me today refers to whatever I effect to maintain a sense of identity.

    This is both what I hold on to, as well as what I push away.
    In formal meditation, attachment stands out as that which manipulates the arising, living and fading away of phenomena.
    In daily life, questioning if you can simply let something be what it is or do you feel the need to fiddle with it's outcome, often illuminates the answer to your question.
    Invincible_summerlobster
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    sharonsaw said:

    Can we progress in Dharma without renunciation?

    According to Tsem Rinpoche, "No true Dharma can ever arise without true insight into renunciation. Therefore true Dharma practice only starts from having unwavering renunciation" (extracted from http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/great-lamas-masters/renunciation-by-lama-yeshe.html) In that article, Rinpoche shares the insight into renunciation by Lama Yeshe, who also talks about Bodhicitta and Shunyata in that same talk.

    Lama Yeshe says "What binds us to samsara? What makes us unhappy? Our lack of renunciation. We are unhappy because we crave and grasp sensory samsaric objects. We are seeking to solve our problems, but we are not looking for the solution in the right place. The right place is where we loosen our own grasping."

    What do you think?

    Thanks @sharonsaw - great article!
  • Can we progress in Dharma without renunciation?

    "Not apart from enlightenment and austerity,
    Not apart from sense restraint,
    Not apart from relinquishing all,
    Do I see any safety for living beings." (SN 2:17)

    Renouncing is not getting rid of material belongings. Even more important than renouncing the material is the practice of sense restraint and seeing clearly the 3 characteristics (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality) which leads to relinquishing of the 5 aggregates.
    Nirvanamisecmisc1JeffreyTheswingisyellow
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2013
    i think renouncing the world should mean - not physically renouncing the world, rather mentally renouncing the world. the physical separation of worldly things away from body does not help much, rather letting go of the world from the mind is what really matters. samsara is the projection of mind and is due to the proliferation of mental states in mind. so if renouncing of samsara is to be done, it needs to be done at the level of mind.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2013

    Where is the line drawn between "something I really enjoy" and an "attachment"? Is 'attachment' another word for 'addiction'?

    @Begin_Being: my thinking says: when there is attachment, then only there can be the feeling of something which 'one' really enjoys. attachment is there from the start, otherwise the sense of 'I' will not be formed at the first place. now if we enjoy a thing and we move forward without the longing of that enjoyment again, we can say that on a grosser level, there is no attachment towards that thing - but if we again desire that enjoyment to occur to us from that thing, then that desire turns to become attachment, we think we are getting attached to that thing, but what we are really getting attached to is the sense of enjoyment derived from that thing.

    addiction is the stage when the attachment goes so strong, that it derives a person crazy in order to get that thing. so these are various levels of the increasing of intensity of attachment - initially just a enjoyment happened, then a smaller feeling of attachment towards that thing for getting the enjoyment but keeping it within ethical boundaries to get that thing, then stronger feeling of attachment (which is addiction) towards the thing for getting the enjoyment by doing whatever needs to be done whether ethical or unethical to get that thing.
    Jeffreyperson
  • Thanks for all the great responses.

    What Lama Yeshe said in very beginning of the article is "Renunciation is a tricky word. In the Western world it has a connotation that makes us scared of losing our pleasure. I want you to understand that to be renounced, you don’t have to throw away all your nice belongings. That isn’t the meaning of renunciation. That isn’t only the business of monks and nuns. Anyone who is seeking liberation or enlightenment should have renunciation of samsara."

    @misecmisc1 i agree with you that renunciation is completely mental. That is why in the Vajrayana tradition, you don't necessarily have to be sitting in the forest with nothing.

    @pegembara Yes we don't have to give up material things, as Lama Yeshe said above. We don't have to throw our stuff out. You can be immersed in samsara but not attached to it, therefore, for those who have attained non-attachment (and developing a good motivation), it is okay to be driving a ferrari and being in samsara!

    If we are 'attached' to Dharma, is that ok?
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    sharonsaw said:

    If we are 'attached' to Dharma, is that ok?

    @sharonsaw: my understanding of Buddha's teachings says: till we cross the river of samsara, the raft of Dharma can be carried with us, means till that stage we can hold onto and be attached to Dharma - but after crossing the river of samsara, the raft of Dharma has to be let go of as in the end, everything has to be let go of to experience the unconditioned.
  • What is dharma? If you (OP or anyone) say what dharma is then maybe we can see if we are attached.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    "Renunciation" is one of those 50-cent words that can depress the hell out of people. It sounds as if I might have to give up chocolate ... yoiks!

    My take is that with PRACTICE, things renounce themselves without giving up anything. No pushing and pulling and gnashing of mental teeth ... with practice, things just walk away all by themselves.

    With PRACTICE.
    lobsterInvincible_summerpegembaraperson
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Seems to me that "progress" and "renunciation" are the same thing. So if they are the same then obviously the answer would be no.
    genkaku said:

    "Renunciation" is one of those 50-cent words that can depress the hell out of people. It sounds as if I might have to give up chocolate ... yoiks!

    My take is that with PRACTICE, things renounce themselves without giving up anything. No pushing and pulling and gnashing of mental teeth ... with practice, things just walk away all by themselves.

    With PRACTICE.

    Agreed! But then I think "Well, what exactly are we practicing anyway?" And the answer "We're practicing renunciation!"

    :)
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    "Well, what exactly are we practicing anyway?" And the answer "We're practicing renunciation!"
    @seeker242 ... I do hope you're not imagining you could renounce anything.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    "We're practicing renunciation!"
    ye cods!
    can it be true? not me. I am renouncing renuciation. I am practicing more. More acceptance. More kindness to fish and enlightened grass xxx Hug more trees and the wooden. Worship more than I can imagine. Maybe I could give up Easter for Lent, to please the ExTians - after all this is the Middle Way . . . :thumbup:

    I am going to snog More Buddha statues and report myself to the dharma police. I am going to eat garlic and onions and sleep on a higher bed. I am going to sing and dance with nuns.

    In short I am going to be a bad bad Buddha. Naughty even.
  • Be like that—desireless.

    Just sleep, eat, piss, shit.
    There’s nothing else in life that has to be done.

    Don’t get involved with other things:
    They’re not the point.

    Keep a low profile,
    Sleep.

    In the triple universe
    When you’re lower than your company
    You should take the low seat.

    Should you happen to be the superior one,
    Don’t get arrogant.

    There’s no absolute need to have close friends;
    You’re better off just keeping to yourself.

    When you’re without any worldly or religious obligations,
    Don’t keep on longing to acquire some!

    If you let go of everything—
    Everything, everything—
    That’s the real point!

    http://sealevel.ns.ca/patrul/
    Jeffrey
  • The question is misleading really .... in effect, there is no life without renunciation, for one reason or another and in which ever way we understand the term.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    sharonsaw said:

    @misecmisc1 i agree with you that renunciation is completely mental.

    I disagree, I think renunciation is also practical, it implies a lifestyle which is materially simpler and more contented.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2013

    sharonsaw said:

    @misecmisc1 i agree with you that renunciation is completely mental.

    I disagree, I think renunciation is also practical, it implies a lifestyle which is materially simpler and more contented.
    @PedanticPorpoise: Agreed. renunciation starts by sense-restraint, but the objective which renunciation should achieve is the renunciation at mental level, otherwise just having physical renunciation does not help much. for example - may be this is the case with a person who becomes a monk and lives in a hut, but still clings to become a higher monk in society so that many other lay people will give him respect and serve him as per his command - in a way still not able to mentally renounce sensuality from his mind - then his being in physical renunciation does not help much in this case. i think it all goes down to the battle between defilements and the 8-fold path in mind - if defilements win, path is destroyed - if path wins, defilements are destroyed and then whether there is physical renunciation or not does not matter, as then since defilements are destroyed, so craving and aversion does not arise pertaining to worldly things, then a person can be like a lotus flower which is both in the water and yet not of the water, as it rises above the water and stays undisturbed by the water.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2013
    genkaku said:

    "Well, what exactly are we practicing anyway?" And the answer "We're practicing renunciation!"
    @seeker242 ... I do hope you're not imagining you could renounce anything.

    Do you renounce anything when you vow to keep the precepts? Seems to me that when you vow to keep the precepts, you are vowing to renounce killing, stealing, lying, etc. :)

    Nirvana
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Most of life is a balancing, so for example, our negative and lazy ego traits may require attention before we can even begin. This may require effort. Sometimes people are a little hard on themselves, their defilements often are protective and coping mechanisms. With a little skill, we can transform laziness, for example, into a 'just sit' capacity . . .
    You have to be honest and realistic about renunciation. You may end up being an up tight Buddhist, instead of a natural . . .
    NirvanaJeffrey
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    sharonsaw said:

    Can we progress in Dharma without renunciation?

    I'd say yes, but only up to a point.

    At the heart of the practice, Buddhism encourages encourages one to renounce their unskillful thoughts and desires, particularly those imbued with sensuality, ill will, and harmfulness (MN 19), and to renounce what's conducive to short-term welfare and happiness in favour of what's conducive to long-term welfare and happiness (Dhp 290).

    Renunciation goes against the flow of craving (Iti 109); it inclines towards peace (AN 9.41); and most importantly, it leads to the nibbana (AN 3.38). While it may be difficult to see the benefits of renunciation at the beginning, it's an important part of the path.

    In terms of worldly happiness, the Buddha mentions "four kinds of bliss (or happiness)" that can be attained by a householder "partaking of sensuality" (i.e., indulging in a non-contemplative lifestyle): the bliss of having, the bliss of wealth, the bliss of debtlessness, and the bliss of blamelessness (AN 4.62). The highest happiness in Buddhism, however, is a happiness born of renunciation (Ud 2.10) and letting go (SN 35.101) rather than one born of sensual indulgence (AN 9.41).

    Unfortunately, renunciation is often perceived as a negative word, especially in the West—a word that implies depriving oneself of something essential to living a full and happy life. But in the Buddha's dispensation, renunciation actually means the opposite of this—it's a word implying the relinquishment of something unessential to living a full and happy life.
    ZeroNirvanaJeffreyInvincible_summer
  • You have to fill up your day somehow? What are the renunciate activities for a lay person? Study. Meditate. Eat, shit, piss. Or as others say: shit, shower, and shave? Shovel snow and work? What else? If I read a sci-fi novel what of that?

    So how do we keep the renunciate mind even though we read a sci-fi novel or play a game with family?
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited February 2013
    So how do we keep the renunciation mind even though we read a sci-fi novel or play a game with family?

    Two common options exist for the renunciate.

    Toss 100% of yourself into whatever you do. It's a version of "If you have to cut wood, do it fully enough that your body & mind disappears. A Zen favourite for the erudite.
    or
    Clearly observe what ever you do. Don't lose yourself in any activity to the degree that the observer is unseated. Read or play but always try to keep a bit more attention on the observer than the activity.

  • sharonsaw said:

    Can we progress in Dharma without renunciation?

    According to Tsem Rinpoche, "No true Dharma can ever arise without true insight into renunciation. Therefore true Dharma practice only starts from having unwavering renunciation" (extracted from http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/great-lamas-masters/renunciation-by-lama-yeshe.html) In that article, Rinpoche shares the insight into renunciation by Lama Yeshe, who also talks about Bodhicitta and Shunyata in that same talk.

    Lama Yeshe says "What binds us to samsara? What makes us unhappy? Our lack of renunciation. We are unhappy because we crave and grasp sensory samsaric objects. We are seeking to solve our problems, but we are not looking for the solution in the right place. The right place is where we loosen our own grasping."

    What do you think?

    Well, he said , 'without true insight into renunciation'. If you are a layman and has a family, it probably is not about renouncing your family. It is about renouncing the negative thoughts about life.
Sign In or Register to comment.