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Buddhism and Abortion
trendybuddha
Explorer
I am very pro choice, is it possible to be pro-choice and buddhist? In the former group I was, they said that women would accumulate extremely bad karma through abortion. I think that is bullshit, in my opinion. I just think that either action can be both good and bad. They said that the morning after pill was also in a grey zone. I think it would be hard for women to be fully liberal if we are not able to use birth control or have abortions if it is necessary. I don't mind people not liking abortion, they don't need to have abortion, but to think that you can judge others based on your own morals is sickening. And call women who have had abortions without knowing why they did it, or feel like you need them to excuse it is just I don't. Also I think women often have abortions out of respect for life, for making sure that the baby has a good future and gets a good life.
I know that fundamentally aborton is viewed as killing in buddhism, but lots of buddhists eat meat, that is contributing to killing too. I think if westerners is to practise buddhism, buddhism also needs to be acsessible and doable. I don't think it is doable to expect from westerners not to use birth control, not to eat meat and not to have abortions or use alcohol.
Just some thoughts...
I know that fundamentally aborton is viewed as killing in buddhism, but lots of buddhists eat meat, that is contributing to killing too. I think if westerners is to practise buddhism, buddhism also needs to be acsessible and doable. I don't think it is doable to expect from westerners not to use birth control, not to eat meat and not to have abortions or use alcohol.
Just some thoughts...
0
Comments
I realize now that maybe by post in the strart of the thread seems a bit harsh, it was written out of eager and maybe some anger.
I don't see why anyone should care what you believe, as a Buddhist I mean. If you are the one having to make the choice on having an abortion or not, regardless of the reason, then if there is karma attached to that (I could see it in some cases possibly, not as much in other cases, just depends) then that is on the person making the decision, and possibly the person performing the abortion. Simply being pro-choice does not make someone an improper Buddhist by any means.
As for my personal beliefs. If I ever had to make the choice, it would be a difficult choice (as it is for most women) but I would make the choice to abort in certain circumstances, and I believe I should reserve that right to make that choice. I would never tell anyone making the decision for any different reason that they should not have the right. That is their decision to make. As for Buddhism in particular I'm not sure what I personally believe on when life starts. Is am embryo a life? At what stage is it a life? That's much of the debate. I have 3 children. I miscarried a 4th. At some point in the pregnancies, yes I most certainly felt the life inside of me. Not just the movement but the bond and the connection. However, that occurred at a certain point for me. When I had my miscarriage I was 11 weeks. I honestly did not feel a big loss of life in that. It was something that happened. I didn't mourn any loss and I do not today. It was just something that happened. I realize other women feel very differently, I am only speaking for myself. It just did not feel like a life to me. That is much of what I base my opinion on. That I personally do not believe a baby is a life until it has half a chance to exist outside of the mom's body. Until then, the baby is an extension of the mother's body. Of course I realize babies have beating hearts and movement etc. I've read plenty about the development from the time 2 cells come together until birth. Just my personal feelings based on my experiences.
If I was forced with such a decision, my Buddhist practice would certainly be an aid to me and a consideration. But being a Buddhist would not necessarily be cause for me to automatically choose not to abort.
You may be interested in some issues raised on this subject earlier this month.
See:
newbuddhist.com/discussion/17773/coming-to-terms-with-abortion
I have examined an analysis by an independent reporting arm of Planned Parenthood in the U.S. sometime ago where they projected from their surveys that about 1.05% of abortions performed each year are attributed to rape and incest as the determining justification. The rest fall under various reasons, but ultimately most in this category could have been prevented by some form of contraception rather than abortion as the contraceptive means.
I would definitely want to see a reduction in the number of abortions performed each year, so perhaps accepting, advocating, and promoting the proactive sexual responsibility of both men and women would be the less harmful choice to make.
It has not affected my practice, nor would I ever tell anyone what to do with their bodies.
:hair:
The fact that your sangha said the morning after pill is a grey area is ridiculous. The way it works is by inhibiting the sperm from entering the egg before it has a chance to do so. Who ever said that to you obviously didn't know anything about it. It's about as grey an area as a condom...
Abortion is a tragic decision, but that doesn't make it wrong--only tragic. In light of trying to understand causes and conditions, what factors led to the woman's decision? If we want less abortions to occur, then we should pinpoint what gave rise to it in the first place (and this is something I find many pro-life advocates don't want to address). Abortion is often the result of poverty, ignorance, and often negative conditioning and environments--not to mention instances of rape. Such decisions are not made arbitrarily at the flip of a coin.
The broader picture is what should be addressed, not just 'let's make abortion illegal.' Simply painting it in black and white terms saying that abortion is wrong and should be illegal is superficially addressing a deeper problem. Abortion doesn't just spring up out of a vacuum, but is the result of a deeper malaise in society. Anything less is to display a lack of compassion for either the mother or the fetus--it only results in generating a kind of moral self-satisfaction that arises in any kind of simplistic, manichean thinking on ethical issues. The problem with addressing it as a greater societal problem means that we are all implicated in the conditions that give rise to abortion. There is no such thing as 'moral purity' in these matters--we can't place dotted lines around the woman or the clinics and simply lay the blame at their feet.
Is the intention to do harm to the new lifeform or to spare it from harm? That makes all the difference, especially in cases where the mother feels like she is sparing the new lifeform from a potentially dukkha-ridden life-situation.
I would be really interested to hear about a concrete example of where the intent of the woman affected the karmic results of her decision one way or the other.
I suppose a decision to abort could cause guilt and shame and regret, but that could occur in any case, regardless of intent.
I've known a number of women who have had abortions. Including my own mother. How would I know if I had seen the negative results of their actions based on their intent?
How should I judge them?
If a parent murders their family to prevent some imagined suffering, which seems to happen all the time, their intent is usually positive in their own mind.
Who isn't born into a potentially dukkha filled life?
If intention counts in karma, and many here seem to believe that is the case (I happen to agree) then it makes sense in this case, too. However, only the person and the universe (or whatever you believe keeps track) are the only ones that know the true intention. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. However, in many cases, it is also easily foreseeable that those so-called good intentions may very well have poor results. Just proclaiming that your intention is pure is not enough. IMO, if I drink a 6 pack and get behind the wheel, and someone dies in an accident I caused, saying "I didn't intend for that to happen" doesn't hold much water. I may not have purposely intended to cause the accident that killed someone. But I sure can foresee that it's a possibility. There's a difference, I think, between pure intention and "intention" used as a term to make us feel better about a bad situation.
When you said "it is also easily foreseeable that those so-called good intentions may very well have poor results", this is what I mean when I talk about "wise intention", as opposed to "unwise good intention".
To paraphrase the Dhammapada: Suffering follows one who acts with malice, happiness follows one who acts out of benevolence.
Nobody is in any position to judge anyone.
What I mean by preventing dukkha-ridden circumstances I think you just need to reflect on and the answer will become clear.
In terms of evil acts and whether or not you intended to do them when aware of the possibility, I'll refer to paraphrasing the Buddha here: What hurts more, grabbing a hot iron ball intentionally, or grabbing a hot iron ball on accident?
I understood what you meant here. The way I see it, it just doesn't make sense from a Buddhist perspective.
As we know, unless we are omniscient, we cannot know all the causes or results of karma of another being.
The path to awakening is from suffering to the end of suffering. Its basic 4NT.
So if you are going to consider the welfare of the being whose life is hanging in the balance, as a Buddhist, this should be considered.
How can the decision to cut off a being's opportunity to suffer be considered compassionate and wise, or right intent, from a Buddhist point of view?
We can't know when suffering will lead to awakening.
Of course this also applies to the one making the decision. If suffering occurs as a result of the decision, it will be be up to them to make the changes, or seek the solution to that suffering and that may well include new realizations and progress on their path.
No, I think the results of this decision are that a baby will be born or not and the results from that outcome will be experienced as negative or positive, depending on the state of mind of the one who made the decision, and the other folks involved, as those results occur, more so than depending on their intent at the time the decision was made.
http://www.dhammaweb.net/dhammadb/view.php?id=1440
Of course, his view is controversial in Buddhism, but I think it's helpful to offer this view, among all the shaming and blaming and bad-karma accusations that go on.
Any absolute statements from any pov are always going to come up against the shades of grey that make up real life and the messy chaos of real lives as lived.
Openness and compassion and what its like to walk in someone else's moccasins should in my view be the guiding principles.
[Cue troll's entrance stage left.]
For what it's worth, the Buddha stressed not believing what others say unless it resonates in your own mind - unless YOU believe it.
Metta