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Why meditate?

Since desire is the cause of suffering, isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it as and when it arises? So why must we do any meditation - whether watching the breath or controlling thoughts, or whatever else. Once desire goes, so do our problems. I understand that meditation may have relaxation benefits and such, but music (or whatever your fav. activity) can do that for you anyway.

My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.
BhanteLucky

Comments

  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited April 2013
    without desire, you cannot do anything in the world - not even eat, drink etc - because even to eat, you should have a desire to satisfy your hunger. it is the craving for sensual desires which causes more suffering to arise - and it is desire to follow the spiritual path to eliminate suffering leads to lessening of suffering. so it depends on what you desire. so it is not desire which is inherently good or bad, rather what is the desire of - decides whether it is a skillful desire or an unskillful desire.

    moreover, meditation is not done just to eliminate desire - rather meditation is done to see things as 'just they are'.
    Invincible_summer
  • Just to clarify for one and all. By desire, I mean craving. So please let's not go off on a tangent about how all desires aren't bad, etc. etc. It would be a waste of time.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    meditation is done to know who we are - our true nature - to see things as 'just they are'.
    Invincible_summer
  • edited April 2013

    meditation is done to know who we are - our true nature - to see things as 'just they are'.

    The 4 NTs are clear that we ought to eliminate craving in order to eliminate suffering. In fact, that alone is categorically stated as a goal, THE goal. Seeing things as they are, knowing one's true nature seems a little too new-agey to me.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited April 2013
    do you understand that desire in itself is neither good nor bad, rather it is the desire of something which decides whether the desire of that thing is good or bad. do you see any difference in a desire to get a new car and a desire to follow the 8-fold path?

    to see things as 'just they are' - is in a way removing ignorance from our mind and getting wisdom in our mind. meditation is a way to go inside us, to directly experience the ultimate reality as it really is, and not how we think it is. meditation is done to let-go of things and not to get anything.
    riverflowSabbyblu3reeInvincible_summer
  • Overcoming craving without any meditative practice or the realisation of any 'new age' self-knowledge? I don't believe it can be done or even what the point of trying would be, but good luck. Overcoming craving means overcoming ignorance not protecting it by refusing to look through the telescope. But each to their own.

    Strange to hear teachings over three millenia old being called new age.
    riverflowInvincible_summer
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    music said:

    Since desire is the cause of suffering, isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it as and when it arises? So why must we do any meditation - whether watching the breath or controlling thoughts, or whatever else. Once desire goes, so do our problems. I understand that meditation may have relaxation benefits and such, but music (or whatever your fav. activity) can do that for you anyway.

    My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.

    The cause of craving is ignorance. Meditation eliminates ignorance and produces wisdom, causing craving to disappear. The attainment of wisdom is precisely how you defeat craving and you attain wisdom by doing meditation.

    riverflowInvincible_summerpommesetorangesBeej
  • That says it better.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2013
    music said:

    Since desire is the cause of suffering, isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it as and when it arises? So why must we do any meditation - whether watching the breath or controlling thoughts, or whatever else. Once desire goes, so do our problems. I understand that meditation may have relaxation benefits and such, but music (or whatever your fav. activity) can do that for you anyway.

    My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.

    I think the practice of meditation has many benefits. It gives the mind a comfortable place to rest and can help to lower blood pressure. It can also help to make one more empathetic. The most important benefit, however, is the ability of concentration to temporarily subdue the five hindrances (nivarana), which the Buddha calls "overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight," i.e., sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and anxiety, and uncertainty (AN 5.51).

    SN 47.10, for example, briefly details how directing the mind towards an inspiring object can act as an antidote to these unskillful mental states, and MN 20 lists five methods for dealing with unskillful thoughts in the course of meditation. Once the mind is calm, clear, focused, concentrated and temporarily free of the five hindrances, it's then better able to perform the next mode of training—discernment.

    The way I see it, craving (tahna) is the cause of suffering, and to end suffering its cause must be removed; the difficulty arises when it comes to how exactly this is done. My theory is that craving is a very subtle but powerful aspect of our psychology. It's there, latent in the mind, waiting to exert its influence through mental fabrications by directing or at the very least encouraging the mind to feed upon sensory experiences via the five clinging-aggregates in an unhealthy way. The problem is that these processes of subtle movement in the mind are so subtle that they're almost impossible to discern as they're taking place. That's where I believe meditation comes in; meditation helps to calm and still the mind so that these mental events become easier and easier to observe.

    One, in effect, uses conditionality in order to fabricate controlled states of mental absorption until they're able to discern the presence of craving, its movement in the mind, and the fact that even these refined and subtle states of mental absorption are ultimately stressful and unsatisfactory. This leads one to develop dispassion (viraga), and dispassion leads one to cease fabrication, thus opening the doors to the deathless by ending the psychological chain of causation that gives rise to suffering.
    lobsterSabbyInvincible_summerpommesetoranges
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    I understand that meditation may have relaxation benefits and such, but music (or whatever your fav. activity) can do that for you anyway.
    Music can be a way into metta, into meditation, into spiritual development, into healing, into well being. All true.

    It is not developed in some systems, in others it is a way of emotional fervour, trance and ecstatic evocation.

    Loud music creates natural brain opiates. I used to listen to loud music through headphones and fall asleep . . .



    Find what you Love
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it [desire]
    @music -- What you fight against just increases its stature. Doesn't make much sense to me.
    blu3reeInvincible_summerlobsterBeej
  • genkaku said:

    isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it [desire]
    @music -- What you fight against just increases its stature. Doesn't make much sense to me.

    image
    blu3reeInvincible_summerlobster
  • One can develop concentration and insight.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Some folks are moths circling the flames of there own discontent. Perhaps for some, the Buddha, Dharma & Sangha are those flames.
  • music said:

    My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.

    Hold your breath for 20s, and then try eliminating your desire to breathe.

    To the extent you can just drop a desire, for sure, just do it. In principle (i.e., not speaking from experience), meditation provides the stability of mind to develop the capacity for restraint of any desire.

    Anyway, you shouldn't be focusing on eliminating desire, as you are quite discontented. Metta meditation would be a much better choice for you, and you might actually enjoy it.
    Sabrelobster
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    One could argue that meditation is fighting desire as it arises.

    By sitting in silent meditation, you see the impermanence and transitory nature of desire, and learn to let go.
    TheEccentric
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    music said:


    Since desire is the cause of suffering, isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it as and when it arises?
    Once desire goes, so do our problems.
    My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.

    How do you propose fighting it contemporaneously every time?
    Preparation may be of benefit.
    If craving is conflict then wouldn't further conflict (fighting) likely add to the malaise?
    Where does desire have to go when it comes from us?
    Indispensable comes into play when conditions are limited, we're free to reinvent the wheel - that said, time is limited such that there is much to be said for expediency.
    I guess there's no one size fits all.
  • The second noble truth is sometimes said as ignorance- avidya rather than desire. From that standpoint 'seeing what is there' is in line with the four noble truths.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited April 2013
    I think one could argue that Zen meditation is the removing of desire's fuel but fighting with desire as it rises, only refuels it. Dependent origination is the clearest explanation for why desire arises and by extension, how meditation can allow it to truely be let go.
    lobsterInvincible_summer
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Metta meditation would be a much better choice for you, and you might actually enjoy it.
    I agree.
    Love in the spiritual sense is not the same as desire. However to get started, motivated, hopeful, we need to use the tools of even a wounded or sick ego . . .

    Connect to Love
    Entangle the 3 jewels with the love connection
    Connect to a higher form of Love; metta, compassion, bodhicitta

    . . . and so on . . .
  • Jeffrey said:

    The second noble truth is sometimes said as ignorance- avidya rather than desire.

    Can you give some citations? I'm not familiar with this interpretation.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Why NOT meditate? Regardless of what you think it accomplishes in regards to clinging and craving, there are now many scientific studies that tout the benefits of calming the mind and reducing stress and improving reaction among those who meditate faithfully. I definitely find it helps my life in many ways. If one day I was no longer a Buddhist, I would still meditate. I meditated before I was a Buddhist, in fact.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @Fivebells
    This might be what Jeffrey is saying.

    The second noble truth is the truth of the origin of dukkha. The origin (Pali: samudaya) of dukkha is commonly explained as craving (Pali: tanha) conditioned by ignorance (Pali: avijja).
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2013
    @fivebells, I don't do much web searching, but I read a book by Rigdzin Shikpo who is the leader of the Longchenpa Foundation. His former root guru was Trungpa Rinpoche and the book I am thinking of is Never Turn Away. The title refers to turning towards experience that we might otherwise try to doctor up, sleep through, or lash out at.

    Here is avidya within the framework of dependent origination:
    http://www.search.ask.com/web?l=dis&o=100000031&qsrc=2873&gct=sb&q=avidya four noble truths kagyu

    ^that's a link to a google search. The document is a pdf so I guess I couldn't link it directly. The 'hit' of the search to the document has 'huntington archive'
    CAUSATION AND INTERDEPENDENCE
    According to Buddhist thought, all phenomena arise due to causes and
    conditions external to themselves and all phenomena are dependent on
    something external to themselves. The theory of causation and
    interdependence is explained as a twel
    vefold sequence of dependent arising
    (Sanskrit:
    pratityasamutpada, Tibetan: rten 'brel yan lag bcu gnyis). The process of
    dependent arising is often described as
    a circle, the wheel of existence,
    explaining how the cycle of rebirth functions. One's rebirth is determined by
    one's former actions as explained in the law of karma. Only a buddha can
    break this chain of cyclic existence.
    In the twelvefold sequence of de
    pendent arising it is explained that
    ignorance, a wrong perceiving of reality motivates one to act. Actions caused
    by
    ignorance give rise to consciousness, and eventually ignorance gives rise to
    birth and death. The most basic type of ignorance is the belief in an
    inherently existent self (explained
    in the theory of emptiness). Through the
    perfection of wisdom that a buddha possesses, ignorance is dispelled and
    conditioned action ceases, thus the chain of rebirths is broken.
    THE CHAIN OF DEPENDENT ARISING
    1. ignorance (Sanskrit: avidya, Tibetan: ma rig pa)
    2. action (samskarakarma, 'du byed kyi las)
    3. consciousness (vijñana, rnam par shes pa)
    4. name and form (namarupa, ming gzugs)
    5. sources of perception (ayatana, skyed mched)
    6. contact (sparsha, reg pa)
    7. feeling (vedana, tshor ba)
    8. craving (trsna, sred pa)
    9. grasping (upadana, len pa)
    10. existence (bhava, srid pa)
    11. birth (jati, skye ba)
    12. aging and death (jaramaranam, rga shi
    Here is avidya in the context to the four noble truths:
    THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS
    The four noble truths (Sanskrit caturaryasatya, Tibetan 'phags pa'i bden pa
    rnam bzhi) sum up the Shakyamuni Buddha's understanding of cyclic
    existence, and how to be released from
    the sufferings of cyclic existence. The
    four noble truths are:
    1. The truth of suffering is compared to the disease: Those who are caught
    up in the cycle of existence must suffer over and over again.
    2. The truth of origin is compared to the diagnosis: The cause of suffering is
    ignorance as explained in the theory of causation and interdependence.
    3. The truth of cessation is compared to the prognosis: Since suffering
    depends on causes, it is possible to overcome suffering. When the causes are
    removed, suffering will disappear. The end of suffering is the uprooting of
    ignorance.
    4. The truth of the path is compared to the cure: walking the eightfold path
    dispels ignorance. The eightfold path is to have right view, right intention,
    right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness,
    and right meditation.
    I think that Theravada tries to avoid craving and Mahayana, at least yogacara, is trying to see clearly and remove self clinging (rangtong) or other clinging (shentong). Thus in both of these desire is clarified and the Buddha qualities are liberated. Desire is clarified into sensitivity. Even our ego grasping is just a distorted Buddha quality.

    But everybody has the same starting point where they start trying to create karma dharmically and follow the five precepts. The mahayana doesn't stop trying to uproot negative cittas and plant positive. The thing is is that there is an emphasis in letting kleshas be there as in the Sogyal Rinpoche's instruction: "muddy water let stand gets clean". But ayya khem says basically the same thing or maybe a different emphasis or flavor in one talk of hers I listened to.
    lobster
  • jlljll Veteran
    why do anything at all?
    since everything we do is driven by desire.
    music said:

    Since desire is the cause of suffering, isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it as and when it arises? So why must we do any meditation - whether watching the breath or controlling thoughts, or whatever else. Once desire goes, so do our problems. I understand that meditation may have relaxation benefits and such, but music (or whatever your fav. activity) can do that for you anyway.

    My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.

  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited April 2013
    @music I'd like to suggest that before you dismiss meditation as being rather useless, you should try practicing meditation for a while and see the results for yourself. The best way is to try going to a retreat even one of those shorter three-day ones can give you a good feel about the benefits of meditation.

    Apart from the deeper levels of wisdom that can be gained from meditation, another benefit we can gain from meditation is basically to have greater control over our thoughts through the enhanced ability to be more aware and focused. This means we no longer have to live in auto-pilot mode where our thoughts take control over our mind and bodily actions, but meditation gives us the ability to switch from auto-pilot mode to manual.

    A lot of the suffering we experience in our daily lives is really the inability to take control of our thoughts. Sometimes we feel stressed because we are stuck in the past, thinking about how things could have been this way or that way only if we had done this or that. At other times, we are stuck in the future, thinking and thinking about how things might turn out. At other times, we are thinking and thinking about how this person shouldn't have done or said this or that, how wrong their actions were, how different we wish they would be. And at other times, we are thinking about how nice a certain person is, how we miss them and what to be with them, etc. etc. Basically, we often get lost in our own thoughts. We are get stuck in the past or the future and we forget about the present, about ourselves. We are so lost and unaware that we do not see our own suffering ie. how the various thoughts in our mind are causing us to suffer.

    So through meditation, we can stop all of that. We can quickly pull ourselves out of living in the past or living in the future and come back to the present moment. And by doing so, we begin to really understand how our thoughts are causing us to suffer and we begin to realize the benefit of stopping ourselves from getting lost in our thoughts, ie. we start to realize the benefit of being aware and focused and the dangers of being unaware and unfocussed.

    There is a lot of talk about how we should just let our negative thoughts arise and observe them. But at times, it is also useful to make a conscious effort to replace negative thoughts with positive ones. This is especially the case when your negative thoughts have gained in strength to a level where it is causing you to act in ways which is harmful to yourself or others. For example, if your angry thoughts are going to make you shout harsh words at another person, or if your sad thoughts are making you so depressed you want to commit suicide, or if your thoughts of desire are leading you to engage in sexual misconduct etc, etc, then these are the kind of situations where we should make a conscious effort to replace these unwholesome thoughts with wholesome thoughts. Meditation gives us the ability to do this. We can quickly become aware of the angry/sad/greedy or other negative thoughts and we stop them in their tracks before such thoughts gain strength over us and cause us to behave unskillfully/immorally. We can then generate positive thoughts such as compassion and contemplate about the harmfulness of those negative thoughts.

    After the mind is more trained and with the ability to produce higher levels of awareness and concentration, then there will be no need to make a conscious effort to stop negative thoughts, simply because the simple act of being aware and concentrated automatically stops your negative thoughts in and of themselves. Basically, the act of observing a negative thought will, in and of, itself destroy the negative thought and the mind is able to sustain that awareness and concentration to a degree which prevents the negative thought from reappearing again.

    So, I hope you will give meditation a chance. You will find that your fearful thoughts about rebirth will have less power over you because you will no longer have to be stuck in such thoughts about the future and how things will be. You can free yourself from the grip of such thoughts through awareness and concentration. In the same way, you can also free yourself from the power of desire/craving.
    Invincible_summerriverflowpersonJeffrey
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    music said:

    Since desire is the cause of suffering, isn't it better to spend one's time fighting against it as and when it arises? So why must we do any meditation - whether watching the breath or controlling thoughts, or whatever else. Once desire goes, so do our problems. I understand that meditation may have relaxation benefits and such, but music (or whatever your fav. activity) can do that for you anyway.

    My point is, meditation doesn't seem indispensable if our top priority is to eliminate desire.

    Meditation teaches you to let go of it when it arises, rather than fight it. A gentle letting go.

    Invincible_summerlobster
  • Jeffrey said:

    Here is avidya in the context to the four noble truths:

    Thanks, Jeffrey.
    Jeffrey said:

    I think that Theravada tries to avoid craving and Mahayana, at least yogacara, is trying to see clearly and remove self clinging (rangtong) or other clinging (shentong).

    Both traditions allow for cutting at any of the links in dependent origination, though different practices emphasize different links.
  • I'm not trying to be...idk, difficult/ignorant/etc with this question, but I've always wondered about something:

    Desire (outside of things necessary to live) is "bad" or, well, suffering in the context of Buddhism right?

    If that's the case, then wouldn't the desire to end suffering from other desires be suffering as well?

    And if that's true, meditation could = suffering?

    I'm likely totally wrong as I feel that I am, but for reasons I don't fully understand. I have a severe issue (an issue when it comes to Buddhism anyway) with thinking too literally or logically about some things. This is one of them.
  • Ha. You're not being difficult. You'll find that a lot of Buddhist ideas seem self-contradictory and sometimes a bit implausible as a consequence. They only seem contradictory though.

    Craving would not be the direct issue but rather it would be the causes of craving. Nothing wrong with desire per se. Re the 2nd Noble Truth, as the extract quoted by Jeffrey clarifies, it is suffering conditioned by ignorance that is the problem. That is, ignorance is the problem to be overcome, and overcoming this will naturally result in a certain detachment from the desires of the self and at the limit even a complete cessation. Attacking desires and craving head-on, with no change in ones own mental state, seems like a recipe for a great struggle and near certain failure.
    Invincible_summer
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