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How do I see that feeling is not the self
Jeffrey
Veteran
I very strongly in my life want to feel good. I am on drugs that make me low energy and feel less alive and certainly uncomfortable. In my awareness I am always thinking of how I can get a good feeling or lamenting because I don't feel well.
@karmablues said something in another thread:
@karmablues said something in another thread:
From the Khandha Samyutta No. 117:How should I practice so as to change my mind? I don't understand how someone can be dispassioned from feeling because when you feel bad you can't think of anything but of how you are hurting and wanting a way out.
A well-taught noble disciple... does not consider feeling as the self nor the self as the owner of the feeling, nor feeling as included within the self, nor the self as included within the feeling.
Of such a well-taught noble disciple it can be said that he is unfettered by the bondage of feeling, unfettered by bondage inner or outer. He has seen the coast, he has seen the Other Shore, and he is fully freed from suffering — this I say.
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The characteristic of not-self which manifests and can be observed is its uncontrollable nature. That is why the Buddha said in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta that since form/feeling/perception/mental formation/consciousness is not-self, it is not possible for one to make form/feeling/perception/mental formations/consciousness to be a certain way or not be a certain way in accordance to one's wishes.
In the Buddha's words:
If we want to investigate feelings, we can contemplate on the fact that if feelings were really the "self", then we would be able to make feelings always nice and pleasurable, but the fact is we often get unpleasant and painful feelings that arise according to their causes and conditions despite whatever our wishes may be. Therefore, we cannot say that these feelings are really ours, and in fact they aren't because feelings are not-self.
To underscore the same point, Ajahn Chah once said:
The Buddha also said in the Sutta that given the fact that form/feeling/perception/mental formations/consciousness are uncontrollable, constantly changing and in a state of stress, they should not be regarded as "This is mine, this is I, this is myself."
In the Buddha's words:
So during our meditation, we are mindful when feelings arise. We use feelings as our object of meditation and study their true nature, ie. that they are constantly changing, in a state of stress and uncontrollable. We then contemplate in accordance with the following three questions:
1) Is this feeling - which is constantly changing, in a state of stress and is uncontrollable - me?
2) Am I this feeling which is constantly changing, in a state of stress and is uncontrollable?
3) Is this feeling - which is constantly changing, in a state of stress and is uncontrollable - mine?
So it's a paradox.
just tell us in your own words, through your own experience
not what you have heard 'the explanation given by some one'
or
what you have read in 'some books'
I think you normally know this stuff so I'm guessing your just going through a hard patch.
Acceptance is the key. Our job is to change nothing but the habit of identifying with and becoming subject to our thoughts and feelings. Thoughts & feelings are allowed there unhindered birth, life and eventual death while we need only prioritize our art of not fiddling with them in any way.
Cheers
H
good
you have a good 'meditation object'
now you know whenever you have this 'not pleasurable feeling'
you want 'to get rid of it' (this is kamachanda)
but you cannot get rid of pain and you get 'angry' (this is Byapada-illwill)
now you are 'fed up' (this is thina midda-sloth and topor) with not pleasurable feeling
so you decide to do something else, in this case go for food
we always take decisions because of our thina midda
not necessary to argue
just pay attention to you pain and see whether you can agree to the 'above'
if so continue
the 'above' is a sort of insight meditation
if you can not agree just 'let go' of 'what is written in this post'
instead of 'you' put 'mind'
Being mindful when drowning, when overcome, when in the grip of mara, becomes 'fine theory' . . . platitudes . . .
. . . we have to be almost perfect bodhisattvas to practice . . .
You need backup.
I listen to chanting. Usually Amitaba. That or more specific chants work for me.
I burn incence, talk on forums, keep the mind occupied outside of the arising.
I do prostrations, yoga, walk etc.
Again and again people say 'I am in difficulty, what will help?'
What helps is developing when you can. It prevents the conditions of suffering or its surrounding attachments to the situation.
How do we stop feeling bad?
We practice the conditions that lead us to The Middle. :coffee:
Cultivate equanimity.
You never know when you'll need it.
Need it you will.
Maay the a force be with you.
That aside, if you have unpleasant feelings in the body, meditation can help to get beyond them. But also then it is helpful to realize that feelings in the body don't have to touch the mind.
Hope this advise has anything useful for you.
Metta!
Sabre
Consider this though...your feeling the pain right? Feeling is still
feeling....so it's ok to say...Damn, I feel like shit today, and I think
feeling good would make it feel better than I do right now.
Everyday can't be Christmas. Remind yourself, this may subside soon
and when that time comes, you will relish in it. You will eat up
every minute of relief you get...then....Remind yourself...
that won't last either.
Pain management....take it day by day....or hour by hour...
however helps you. Once the carving hobby takes off...maybe that
will move some of the form/brain focus to something other
than body/form pain.
The only way out of it is through it. --My Nana used to say.
next moment another feeling arises
if the feeling continue (pleasure or not pleasure or neutral) it depends on what wholesome/unwholesome/importable thoughts (cetanaham kammam)we had before
so there is no one else to be blamed or to blame
It is metta less Buddhist extremism. [boo, hiss]
This is why we have to move towards balance and The Middle Way first.
We have to provide advice to find a teacher, do prostrations, walking, moving meditation that will change the physical body and positively effect the mind.
Even Buddhas have off days. Look at those emancipated statues of his extreme ascetic practice. Silly sitting. Pain wallowing. Leads to more pointless suffering.
The question is what 3 jewelled practices or movement towards them, provide some joy? Tibetan temple music is some of the most discombobulating 'music' to assault the senses. It is used to scare away our demons. That might work . . .
What smells remind or induce memories of happy sits? That is why incense is used to shift moods. Tobacco and marijuana can be burnt as offerings. Beer or other afflictive substances poured near the ground of a Buddha statue . . . (best done outside).
Can you make, clean add flowers to a shrine, alter?
It is not a question of accepting the unacceptable - we have to be ready and sufficiently committed to break that pain barrier. The best advice is 'just sit'. On our worst, the best is not good enough . . .
Metta practice and a wrathful initiation might be worth exploring.
Watch a movie, for example 'The Nines'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0810988/
On another occasion he said:
@Jeffrey
Using pain as an object of insight meditation is certainly no quick-fix method, but it can lead to gradual improvement over time. While presumably concentration meditation could overcome pain, its effects will only last while the mind is maintained in a concentrated state. But with better understanding acquired, you will relate to your pain with a changed attitude. In my own practice, I also do a lot of contemplation on karma to help me cope better with my illness.
Just pay attention to the feeling by itself without wanting it to stay or go away. Bring the feeling under the light of awareness and see what happens. Don't think - only feel.
"There are these three kinds of feeling: a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. On the occasion when one feels a pleasant feeling, one does not feel either a painful feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a pleasant feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a painful feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a painful feeling. One feels only a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling on that occasion.
"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.
"Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.074.than.html
My lama has talked to me about 'heart energy'. For example when grieving or depressed the world can like turn to cardboard. The world still tastes sweet for me, but the pleasant body feeling, the vigor, and the feeling of creativity or expansiveness is lacking. More to the point my body feels like it is being crushed, the feeling in the body. @Pegembra, I take it as a meditaiton, the feeling sometimes. However it can be too much suffering to sitting meditation and I switch to walking after doing as much sitting as I can. When I am very held by the blockages sometimes I can let them be expressed and it turns to a mixture of pleasure and pain. And then sometimes it is pain in the meditation though at these times my mind wanders a lot and the wanderings of mind distract me from my body, though the mind is influenced by the distress and I feel less clarity, I feel drowsy.
Thanks for the concern everybody.
That aside, bodily feelings don't depend on our thoughts. As an example, the Buddha suffered from a painful back. That was just a cause of having a body, not of the way he thought. What he did is meditated to get beyond the pain for a while, but that's not thinking differently.
In my meditation I often reach states where I don't notice the body anymore. I can come out of them and only then notice again headaches, pain in my legs, or numb feet and things like that. Or I can steer the mind away from the body again, let the awareness of the pain disappear, together with the awareness of the body. That is another way of understanding impermanence. It is my conviction the Buddha taught these states also and that's why when he meditated he could be at ease with his pain. So @Jeffrey I would advise to practice in the same way. It is not always trying to see things as not the self that is the most effective way. If interested I will look up some resources on how to practice like this.
Some sources for now. I took out the quotes about leaving the body consciousness, but the links provide more information on how to practice like this. The links are all of Ajahn Chah and his students, because that's what I know most about. But teachers like Pa Auk Sayadaw teach similar things. One thing I would mention but can not link to because it is not on the net, is the book Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond which for me is the best book on meditation I have seen.
What I find is when I can leave the body behind (this happens when mindfulness is strong), usually when I come out of the meditation my body feels very relaxed and at ease, more than when I intentionally relax it. I hope it works for you too. It may take quite some practice, so don't expect short term results. And don't forget the impermanence
Metta!
On a sidenote, I remembered this one. Perhaps it can also help @Jeffrey.
Maybe you can try a similar holistic approach to alleviate some of the physical symptoms caused by your medication.
Sometimes things are a bit beyond our measure, so its okay to step back and just have a cup of tea.
Go see a Tibetan doctor. You could take some bimala/vimala.
Also pain is a great object of shamatha as we are naturally focused on it. Look for the essence.
I am currently taking some because I have rlung issues and sleeping problems.
From Living with pain, not with suffering: