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What is suicide?
JohnG
Veteran
What if suicide 'is' part of our karma in this life? How can it hurt in the next? How can one persuade one out of committing suicide, if all hope 'is' gone?
As a cop, I've been witness to this, but yet have not met anyone with these reasons, so what do I do? :om:
As a cop, I've been witness to this, but yet have not met anyone with these reasons, so what do I do? :om:
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Comments
I do not think suicide should be 'illegal'. I believe in assisted suicide in the matter of terminal illnesses and or extreme aged-ness.
As for religious beliefs, aka; 'suicide = sin' or 'suicide = bad karma', etc... to each his own. But to make actual laws against it? Nonsense. We are the masters of our own lives. As long as there's no harm to others, there should be no 'laws'.
As a cop, you are in a very precarious position of doing what (you may or may not believe) is 'right' -- or doing what is required by law. I don't envy that position...
As for whether or how you can talk someone out of it, I guess it depends on what their reasons are to being with. If they are suffering from late stage cancer or ALS or whatever, that's a much different situation than a teen or college student who simply due to lacking experience and maturity doesn't realize their current situation won't last forever. To a kid/teen/young adult, a bad situation can feel like forever and it's their lack of ability to know how to adequately talk about and deal with it that leads them to suicide. (often, not always of course).
Sooner or later, everyone joins the majority. So for starters, it strikes me as reasonable to say that death is far less unusual than the excitement that can be brought to it. Buddhist excitement, Christian excitement, emotional excitement, intellectual excitement ... whatever the format of the excitement, still, everyone joins the majority sooner or later and to date, no one I know of has returned to complain about it.
@JohnG -- I don't quite get your question. Are you asking whether suicide itself might be a piece of someone's karmic puzzle and therefore speaking out against suicide is unwarranted?
For myself, I do not think that talking someone into or out of something is a good or even a very realistic idea. And bringing Buddhist or Christian or any other philosophical nostrums to bear ... I'm not sure but what that would be off-topic.
If someone expresses a desire to commit suicide, wouldn't that be a good time to listen and talk to them about their thoughts or emotions and never mind laying on a particular set of values or world view or spiritual framework? All the pontificating in the world -- "oh, it's a cry for help" or "this really leads to sucky karma" or "life is sacred" or "you're out of your fucking mind" -- is not the point, is it? The point is the person who expresses him- or herself. No one -- not even the person contemplating suicide -- can say whether suicide is a good idea. Like the rest of life, it's a crap shoot.
Sorry if this is not relevant to the OP. It's just some thoughts.
And in terms of suicide, you say, "So from the perspective of karma the next life you may (or may not)..." So in other words, suicide has no real effect on karma?
Just wonder if you would clarify your thoughts.
Wrong.
On so many levels.
I think from an outside perspective it's best to learn to accept that some people choose to end their lives.
I think probably if I were faced with it, I would hope there would be some organised response available by trained healthcare professionals - I suppose first the person would have to be stable enough to understand their illogical action / choice and then willing to face up to the underlying issues - if they are not, then what can anyone do?
A terrible thing for those left behind.
if they've committed suicide, their 'inner world' is irrelevant.
That which matters most, is the bewildered, hurt, lost emotionally bereft people they've left behind. Sadly, some of those 'left behind' never come to terms with the suicide of someone they would gladly have given their lives for, had they but known.
And that's why I think it's best to learn to accept, however hard it may be. I don't have that experience up close personally, but I don't think it is outside of everybody's possibilities to accept such things. I've seen people accept worse things and being able to accept it and leave it behind.
And then still the inner perspective matters, because reflecting upon that can make people rethink things. I think many people get stuck because they want to understand instead of accept. Then perhaps we just have to accept that we can't understand, because it was not us in that position. So we can accept their decision without the need to understand it.
In case this touches upon something personal, I'm sorry. I don't want to make it sound like it's all easy or people should just change or anything. What I try to sketch is a point of view I think we as Buddhist should practice towards. Sort of like an ideal. But one I think is possible.
I think people are more and less responsible in their lives. But, whether more responsible or less, the responsibility is theirs.
If somebody is hell bent on successfully completing suicide...its their choice and there is nothing anybody can do about it....there are tons of great ways to do it...and a lot of ways to f&^% it up and end up surviving it only to be often times in a worst state than before...thus complicating the whole situation.
If a person completes suicide...what is their karma?...well I'd imagine their bardo state/transition could be a bit messed up. Idk about their next round...again I'd imagine they would choose or perhaps repeat the opportunities to learn in the next life...since they kind of prematurely terminated the previous opportunity.
As for persuading someone from committing suicide...bottom line you can't as noted above. However the first, foremost and most effective intervention ime...is merely to shut up, listen deeply, compassionately and non-judgmentally, i.e., mindfully to their story...Do Not offer your advice...you will sound like/appear to be a dumba$$...cause advice will appear as rejecting their pain, being judgmental and too damm anxious. Do nothing more...nothing less than deep compassionate listening...BUT if you can't do it...don't start...hand it off to police, pastor/priest or a professional. The mere act of deep compassionate listening often reduces the drive/pressure to commit suicide when another soul is a witness to their pain or suffering. If you offer anything...merely ask if they would like to talk with someone, i.e., a mental health professional...hopefully they will and then get them hooked up with a professional immediately while you are still with them.
And if not, and you have major anxiety that they will make an immediate suicide attempt the stay with the person and call the medics, police...etc. Either way, then let the professionals handle the rest.
If after listening to them and their suicide drive is reduced and you don't have anxiety about them attempting suicide then just make a date/time in the next day or two to check in with them...AND DO IT. There are lots of valid reasons why a person may feel suicidal and if they didn't feel or think about suicide...they would be crazy. However there is a difference between thinking of/feeling suicidal verses making attempts, intentions and plans. Attempts, definite intention of, and/or making plans....then immediate intervention is needed...maintain first the safety of yourself, then if all possible the safety of the suicidal person and call 911, police, medics or whoever.
I have done countless suicide assessments and interventions...sometimes that result in mental health commitments...(I'm a home plate umpire, so to speak) and have lost a few. I've also done many trainings/workshops for professionals, police depts., school counselors, social workers/counselors and etc...and could go about all kinds of things concerning suicide assessment/intervention...but not here. Btw...most police, medics and other first responders are quite skillful in dealing with suicidal folks, know the community resources and can get a suicidal person to a professional.
Much peace,
edit...forgot...if a person is suicidal and is willing to share their story...imho it is a privilege to be offered that opportunity...listening deeply to another soul...it is a gift to them. Its truly a rare opportunity when another person shares with or listens to another. If everyone did this there would be less suicides...imho.
Self absorption.
edit...oh never mind...there are different interpretations that are really quite funny and ridiculous
continued on the link
Where do we draw the line? My ex, as far as we know, did not actively kill himself. However, he knew a lot about the mixing of alcohol with prescription drugs, and he chose to do it anyhow. Was he trying to die? Probably not. But he didn't care much that he might die. In reality, he left behind 2 children who miss and love their dad a lot, but whose lives are honestly better without him in it. Harsh, yes. But true, at least as far as can see from where I am.
Not everyone who kills themselves truly wants to die, though. How far our responsibility goes just depends. If someone is truly determined to die, they will. Others just want someone to listen, to care, to give them a reason to live. I know people who have thought intensely about, or attempted suicide and lived, and they are forever grateful for the intervention.
Just perplexed.
Also first of all let me say that people who have problems should try to find (and get) help for their problems; not end their lives.
But:
The choice we have is not between life and death. Death is certain. We can only choose the time and the manner. Or looking at it from the other angle; when we choose our death we choose our life. And often we state this is our life.
We put much value in having the freedom of living our life the way we want to. Where does this love of freedom go when we talk about the end of our life?
I believe that lot of the suffering around suicide is caused -not only by the death of a loved one – but by the taboo on suicide.
People who want to end their life cannot discuss this with anyone at all and certainly not with the people who care. It is a very lonely road.
People who have ended their life – who cannot defend their position anymore - are judged as being utterly and completely wrong and immoral on top of it.
Excuse me? Wasn’t it their own life they took? Shouldn’t they at least have a say in the matter?
Another thing is the way we see death. Often we believe people go to heaven or they go into the light or they are happily watching over us or whatever. But when someone committed suicide we all get nasty pictures of unbearable suffering. I suppose the religious idea that suicide is the highway to hell is coming from someplace deep in our subconscious.
The people who stay behind ruin their memory of the loved one with their preconceived judgments and subconscious notions of hell, and comfortably blame it on the dead person.
Many people have wishes they cannot express because there’s a taboo on it. I’ll give an innocent example; maybe I don’t want to celebrate my birthday. Why? God knows, maybe because birthday parties suck. But it is a taboo. The friends and family will object. Birthdays are great. We want the party. What’s wrong with you? So I shut up and have the damn party.
But that’s not the right basis of living our life and making our decision.
Suicide isn’t wrong. It is wrong to make suicide a taboo.
I've known several people who killed themselves. Not in one single case do they blame the person who died. They blame themselves. When your child kills themselves, as a parent you blame yourself, whether the kid is 12, 18 or 30. I'm sure there are people who blame the person who died, but most often it's quite the other way around. It's far more a burden to those left behind to be left with unanswerable questions, guilt and doubt than for them to be burdened with conversations about suicide.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/05/22/why-suicide-has-become-and-epidemic-and-what-we-can-do-to-help.html
insurmountable eg clinical depression.
But you still have to make the final decision.
Even if you have the barrel of a gun in your mouth, you can still choose
not to pull the trigger.
I dont believe that it is someone's karma to commit suicide.
It is a choice, a very tough choice.
it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
A person committing suicide has to have an element of bravery. But it's entirely selfish.
They have no thought for anyone else but their own dilemma.
And the vast majority of 'dilemmas' do have alternative choices.
If there were no other options, The Samaritans and other helplines or avenues of counsel, would never even be necessary, or exist, even.
I was well aware someone would jump in with the 'terminal illness' clause.
The following Dhammapada verse expresses the fact that if the roots of craving remain, then death is no true escape from suffering: As for the correct attitude towards life and death, the Pali Canon advises against both clinging to life and clinging to death, as expressed in the Theragatha as follows However, sacrificing one's life as an act of compassion seems to be condoned in Buddhist literature. In the Jataka and other scriptures about the Buddha's past lives, there are many stories about how the Buddha in his previous lives gave up his life in order to save others. For example, there is the famous story how he once saw that a tigress was lurking to kill and eat her own cubs out of hunger. Moved by compassion he sacrificed his life and offered his body as food for the tigress in order to save the cubs. In fact, the Pali Canon says that in order for a Bodhisattva to become a Buddha, he must make the five great sacrifices (mahapariccaga) which are his wife, children, kingdom, life, and limb. In the Mahayana tradition, there is also a story about a monk who sacrificed his life in order to uphold the precepts and this act was praised by the Buddha.
Therefore, it could be said that ending one's life due to aversion to pain and suffering is unskillful whereas sacrificing one's life for noble purposes such as compassion can be commendable.
Three overlapping conditions:
- Thwarted belongingness
- Perceived burdensomeness
- Capability for suicide
In this theory suicide is strongly connected to isolation. When people don’t feel part of a community and they can’t put themselves to use, they become vulnerable to suicide.
It makes me think of Bodhisattva vows. They basically say that the reason for me being here in this life is helping people; liberating them. The idea puts me in the company of the most respected and revered beings in the universe. It gives meaning to my life.
And another important thing remains for me that making a subject a taboo is not a good idea, not ever probably.
When someone feels like taking his own life, he is helped immensely if he feels like he can talk about it without being condemned beforehand, without being stuffed in a stray-jacket immediately.
Just being heard! Isn’t a suicide-note the most tragic thing? People write down how the really feel, because they want to be heard. But because of the taboo, they can only “reach out” after they are gone via this note. The taboo reinforces the notion of isolation, which is the main risk-factor for suicide anyways. The taboo prevents people from reaching out.
Suicidal thoughts are common enough; talk about them.
As far as I'm concerned... someone else's suicide is nobody's business but their own.
Sitting in moral judgment after the fact doesn't do a darn thing to help that person, nor help the next person who decides to do it. I try to have a true compassion for people in that much physical and/or mental pain... not judgment.
One (I hate-to-use-the-word) 'good' thing about suicide is at least the person who was in intense unbearable pain and suffering took their own lives, and not the lives of others (who may have even been the cause of their pain and suffering).
If there IS such as thing as Karma, it will be what it will be.
I'm not saying I would do - or should do - nothing to help a person who was reaching out before trying suicide. I'm a big believer in therapy and counseling, for sure.
But seriously, all this condemnation and talk about cowardice, selfishness, sin and Karma... well, how does that help? How does that help someone who might have that kind of pain inside them right now... maybe even reading this thread?
Why is it so bad to end one's own life? In ancient Rome it was accepted practice. The taboo of suicide seems to have arrived with Christianity, yet another example of religious dogma taking ultimate control of one's life away from the individual.
Apart from which, labeling suicides as "stupid", "cowardly" or "weak" displays a patent lack of compassion.
So how are we suppose to address those points in the OP without mentioning the issue of karma?
Also, the fact that suicide will lead to further suffering as a karmic consequence makes me feel more compassionate towards those who commit suicide because it means that not only were they suffering in the present but they also planted the seeds for future suffering. That's more suffering they will have to endure than if the act of suicide was karmically neutral, so the more reason to feel compassion for these people.
I know from personal experience.
A television program called Ariel America highlighted California and had a piece on the Golden Gate. A sad fact of the structure was that is the most used bridge for suicides. It’s a four second fall to impact, but there have been some survivors and it was reported that every one of them said they regretted what they did the moment they jumped.
I read a wonderful book by Sogyal Rinpoche called, "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying” that seems to be a sane and compassionate approach to dying in contrast to the culture of death that our society is fostering. The essence of the book wasn’t particularly religious either.
A close friend of mine, her husband is in his mid 50s. 2 years ago he had a stroke. After many months of rehab he was getting along pretty well, then he stumbled and fell and broke his hip. While in the hospital for that he had to have his gall bladder removed and developed diabetic ulcers on his foot. Then he got ill and went back to the hospital. He was in the hospital for 2 more months and was sent home the other day because medicare won't pay for him to stay anymore. He has limited home health care but he cannot do anything himself. He cannot move himself and every time he falls out of bed, his family has to call 911 to get him back in. He cannot use the restroom and consistently messes the bed. He cannot shower or bathe himself. He cannot interact with his 12 year old daughter and he refuses to allow her to see him in that state. He suffers extreme depression at his deterioration despite counseling and social workers and he just wants to go. But he can't. His wife is young, and his child is young and while they are doing the best to care for him, they cannot provide for all his needs. She cannot work so she does not have her own benefits. The daughter cannot have friends over or have a normal life. It's a very sad situation for them all. They don't have the coverage or the money to allow for full time in-home care, and they cannot afford assisted living. So they are stuck in a situation where they have to care for a man who needs around the clock care while at the same time not cooperating because he would rather not be alive when he cannot do any of the things he enjoys and he cannot participate in his marriage or the child raising of their daughter. His state is unlikely to improve at all and more likely he will continue to fail until he does pass away, after a whole lot of suffering. His wife is left caring for a man that is less than a shell of who he was, with no physical control over his body. She is on the edge of a mental breakdown all the time and the daughter is left with no functional parents as a result at an age that is already very difficult for her. So, what to do? Personally I guess I feel if he does not want to remain alive in that state, he should be able to legally choose not to. What karma comes of that, perhaps he is more than willing to take on. I think I would be in that state, but like I said it's hard to know unless you are there. Ideally, they would have extended family to help them, a community that comes together to help them. But how many people would be willing to go to their neighbors house to clean up a bed full of poop? She actually lives with family and even their help is very, very minimal.
We don't have the resources in the US anyhow to deal with this situation and it plays out over and over again in many families. The system itself does not handle these things well at all. If you do not have lots of money, once insurance won't pay for hospital anymore you are kind of on your own. You can expect about $4000 a month to stay in assisted living places. You can stay in a nursing home where the care is often horrible, and when you die they'll take everything you own to pay off your bill. There just aren't solutions right now, as much as we might want them to be there.
I am not trying to dismiss the gravity that suicide entails or how desperate some may become. I see it daily in the emergency room but I still feel it's root lies in wrong view, as opposed to right view-dukkha, annata, annica.
The passive suicide discussion often centers around the idea of "who has the right and under what conditions does a person has the ability to say...no more life saving interventions. Imho with the advent of modern medical intervention has expanded the definition of death to....clinical dead, brain dead, organ death, comatose and on and on. Along with it is well known that the certain medical interventions will definitely save a person or will delay/defer/deny death til some point in the future.
As the population get older, medical interventions improve though perhaps more costly and as folks become more informed of the discussion....it becomes more interesting.
I fantasize and have told my kids...leave me at home...DO NOT call the ambulance...merely shut the door and come back in a week or two and if I'm stinkin then you have me hauled out in a body bag. I want to die in peace...not in a hospital with abunch of chaos and tubes...I've worked in hosipatals a good part of my life, have consulted with treatment teams when a person has made it known that they do not want any further medical intervention. I have no desire to die there...besides a lot of people die in hospitals...its not a safe place.
In this way, it can be seen as a release and a method of moving on.