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What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation. As I said, I can't do that.
Perhaps you haven't been taught meditation properly?
That's pretty much the kind of thing I would say to beginners, and of course consistency is vital, but my point here is that 15 minutes a day isn't really going to go anywhere useful.
Useful to what end? You've been kinda a vague about that.
That's pretty much the kind of thing I would say to beginners, and of course consistency is vital, but my point here is that 15 minutes a day isn't really going to go anywhere useful.
Useful to what end? You've been kinda a vague about that.
I've been vague because this is a pan-Buddhist forum, but from a Theravada point of view the "end" or purpose could be described as developing tranquillity and insight. But what do you think, is there really much point in meditating if it never goes beyond 15 minutes a day?
That's pretty much the kind of thing I would say to beginners, and of course consistency is vital, but my point here is that 15 minutes a day isn't really going to go anywhere useful.
Useful to what end? You've been kinda a vague about that.
I've been vague because this is a pan-Buddhist forum, but from a Theravada point of view the "end" or purpose could be described as developing tranquillity and insight. But what do you think, is there really much point in meditating if it never goes beyond 15 minutes a day?
Cool, thanx!
Personally I think 5 minutes of meditation a day will lead to tranquility and insight. The length of time it takes is irrelevent. This isn't a race we're running.
What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation.
Good thing, too, because what you describe -
sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else
Isn't really meditation - at least not what I was taught.
Is that what you were taught?
I was taught to meditate with eyes open and to not block out anything.
Yes, that is what I was given to believe. Not by any teacher, I never had one, but from different writings. So if that is wrong, then I am on the right track in how I do it. In which case, I can indeed sit for an extended period and let the thoughts come and go, not fighting to stay focused on any one thing.
What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation. As I said, I can't do that.
Perhaps you haven't been taught meditation properly?
Clearly. So as I said in the previous post maybe what I have been doing and the way I have been doing it is correct. After all, I have come to some realizations and insights, so I must be doing something right. :clap:
Try opening your mind. It is really more effective than putting your bum on a cushion.
Please describe your method for "opening your mind", and then explain how it's more effective than sitting meditation.
I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to open their mind, it is hard enough to keep my own open. Unlike you I don't have a One Size Fits All approach to practice.
Yes, that is what I was given to believe. Not by any teacher, I never had one, but from different writings.
I suspected that was the case, and that's ok. Learning meditation is a lot easier with an instructor. You might be able to pick up on a technique from books and such, but meditation can be an intensly personal thing and so, when you running into difficulties, like the ones you've described, you have somebody to bounce things off of. Books can't do that for you.
Hell, a forum like this really isn't all that helpful. You'll get too much info and that will cause confusion and wandering with your practice. Best to learn to one technique and work with that exclusively and faithfull for a time before moving on to other things. In the tradition I practice in, we begin with simple Shamatha practice, when the instructor feels you've developed enough stability (time is irrelevant), then you are taught techniques that refine and enhance what you've already learned and practiced.
This isn't a relationship that needs daily attention. You can have a meditation instructor and see them only occaisionally. I see mine to discuss practice only a couple times a year. So if distance is an issue, then you need not worry. And I wouldn't be too picky about tradition. Any instruction is better than none, so if you're only choice is a Tibetan tradition, work with that.
I have come to some realizations and insights, so I must be doing something right. :clap:
Well, if they're actually realizations and insights, yes.
I'm not saying they're not, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, but this is another reason why a teacher is valuable. When you have these realizations and insights, you can run them past the instructor for verification.
...is there really much point in meditating if it never goes beyond 15 minutes a day?
It seems to serve a purpose so in that sense there is a point to it, in as much as there can be for anything. Secretly and very personally, I think I agree with you that anything short of full commitment seems pointless in the context.
What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation.
Good thing, too, because what you describe -
sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else
Isn't really meditation - at least not what I was taught.
Is that what you were taught?
I was taught to meditate with eyes open and to not block out anything.
Yes, that is what I was given to believe. Not by any teacher, I never had one, but from different writings. So if that is wrong, then I am on the right track in how I do it. In which case, I can indeed sit for an extended period and let the thoughts come and go, not fighting to stay focused on any one thing.
I have never had a direct meditation teacher, and my first years of meditation practice were very rough because i had read about stuff like.. Sit straight, back erect, watch the breath. I felt like such a failure and developed much negativity regarding meditation to the point that i basically quit a few years.
When i decided to try again, and i found teach ers like ajahn brahm that taught about being kind to your body and mind and learning to let go, my meditation practice has been positive and consistent since, for about the last 5 years.
When i came back to meditation i told myself that i will sit for as long as my mind and body want to. This started out at only a few minutes and continues to grow. I also decided i would just be there and observe whatever happened. This has helped me tremendously since ive always had trouble following my breath.
At this point in my practice i feel its time for me to work on concentration ability along with the observing all phenomenon. Ive come to find that a meditation practice that integrates concentration, insight, and metta mediation all in one. The Buddha taught this way i found out from Bhante G, and it makes the most sense to me.
...meditation teacher, and my first years of meditation practice were very rough because i had read about stuff like.. Sit straight, back erect, watch the breath. I felt like such a failure and developed much negativity regarding meditation to the point that i basically quit a few years.
That is it exactly.
When i came back to meditation i told myself that i will sit for as long as my mind and body want to. This started out at only a few minutes and continues to grow. I also decided i would just be there and observe whatever happened. This has helped me tremendously since ive always had trouble following my breath.
More exactliness (I know, probably not a word ). I can't follow my breath worth a shit. Doing japa with following my breath is an exercise in futility.
At this point in my practice i feel its time for me to work on concentration ability along with the observing all phenomenon. Ive come to find that a meditation practice that integrates concentration, insight, and metta mediation all in one. The Buddha taught this way i found out from Bhante G, and it makes the most sense to me.
Yes, I have to develop a more consistent and disciplined routine, or at least start out being more mindful.
What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation. As I said, I can't do that.
Perhaps you haven't been taught meditation properly?
There are numerous meditation methods taught throughout the suttas. The category of concentration in the threefold division of the noble eightfold path consists of right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. In the context of the path, concentration means meditation (bhavana or 'mental development'), which generally consists of centering the mind on a single meditation object in such a way that eventually leading to states of deep meditative absorption (jhana), which are eventually used to help free the mind from its defilements.
Many of the mindfulness meditations can lead to insight as well concentration, while many insight meditations can lead to states of concentration. Right mindfulness consists of developing mindfulness in regard to the four frames or objects of reference, i.e., the body in and of itself, feelings in and of themselves, mind in and of itself, and mental qualities in and of themselves (DN 22).
The type of concentration that the Buddha is referring to in the context of right concentration is called jhana or meditative absorption, which can ultimately lead to the "ending of the mental fermentations" (AN 9.36). The basic quality here is that there's only one object or focus of mindful-awareness. This focus can eventually lead to states of rapture or joy (piti), which is a factor of the first jhana, all the way on through to the formless attainments—the highest of which is called "the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception."
The most popular method of achieving this type of meditative awareness is mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati), although the four frames of reference (satipatthana) can be used as well, especially when coupled with mindfulness of breathing. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu points out in his introduction to DN 22:
At first glance, the four frames of reference for satipatthana practice sound like four different meditation exercises, but MN 118 makes clear that they can all center on a single practice: keeping the breath in mind. When the mind is with the breath, all four frames of reference are right there. The difference lies simply in the subtlety of one's focus. It's like learning to play the piano. As you get more proficient at playing, you also become sensitive in listening to ever more subtle levels in the music. This allows you to play even more skillfully. In the same way, as a meditator gets more skilled in staying with the breath, the practice of satipatthana gives greater sensitivity in peeling away ever more subtle layers of participation in the present moment until nothing is left standing in the way of total release.
The topics of insight meditation are also numerous, and, being entwined with concentration practice, can include things like the contemplation the five subjects of frequent reflection, the contemplation of the body, the contemplation of death, etc. In essence, when the mind of an individual has acquired a solid foundation of virtue, and after the mind has been calmed and settled to a point of focused awareness, it can then proceed to experience life via the profound context of the Dhamma and 'cleanse' itself of its defilements:
There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Dhamma, thus: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' As he is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when the body is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the body cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of scouring balls & bath powder & the appropriate human effort. This is how the body is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Dhamma... As he is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Dhamma-Uposatha. He lives with Dhamma. It is owing to Dhamma that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique. (AN 3.70)
As I understand it, the goal of meditation is to refine and strengthen one's mindfulness and awareness in order to be more perceptive of 'things as they are,' of stress as it arises and ceases and the mental processes by which this happens. And however one is able to achieve that is 'proper' in my book.
Dude, NOBODY can follow their breath "worth a shit" .
You can follow it for MAYBE 21 breaths before your mind wanders off to last night's Vikings game, or what's for dinner, or how much your job sucks, or .........
When you realize you're drifting you acknowledge the thought, let go of it and return to your breath.
Over and over and over again.
With practice you might get to 100, but that's not the point. The point is that you become aware of the drift and return to the object of meditation.
Dude, NOBODY can follow their breath "worth a shit" .
You can follow it for MAYBE 21 breaths before your mind wanders off to last night's Vikings game, or what's for dinner, or how much your job sucks, or .........
When you realize you're drifting you acknowledge the thought, let go of it and return to your breath.
Over and over and over again.
With practice you might get to 100, but that's not the point. The point is that you become aware of the drift and return to the object of meditation.
The problem is we have this perception that we are horrible mediators and everyone else is so great, look at how still they are for so long... Lol
What ive come to find is that we are all struggling. My experiences are normal and near universal. This has allowed me to be much less critical of myself and much more honest with myself AND others.
I love being honest about my meditation struggles and failings because it allows others to realize what i did, and hopefully years earlier. Then again there is something to be said for learning through struggle on your own.
The problem is we have this perception that we are horrible mediators and everyone else is so great, look at how still they are for so long... Lol
What ive come to find is that we are all struggling. My experiences are normal and near universal. This has allowed me to be much less critical of myself and much more honest with myself AND others.
I see these pictures and write-ups of people sitting serenely with a serious look on their faces and think "what am I doing wrong?". :scratch: Well now I'm glad to know I'm not really doing anything wrong, I'm learning.
The problem is we have this perception that we are horrible mediators and everyone else is so great, look at how still they are for so long... Lol
What ive come to find is that we are all struggling. My experiences are normal and near universal. This has allowed me to be much less critical of myself and much more honest with myself AND others.
I see these pictures and write-ups of people sitting serenely with a serious look on their faces and think "what am I doing wrong?". :scratch: Well now I'm glad to know I'm not really doing anything wrong, I'm learning.
Look at that chic lookin all serene and meditative.. But in her head she is thinking "what am i having for dinner" or "why hasnt he called me" or "how much longer".
The problem is we have this perception that we are horrible mediators and everyone else is so great, look at how still they are for so long... Lol
What ive come to find is that we are all struggling. My experiences are normal and near universal. This has allowed me to be much less critical of myself and much more honest with myself AND others.
I see these pictures and write-ups of people sitting serenely with a serious look on their faces and think "what am I doing wrong?". :scratch: Well now I'm glad to know I'm not really doing anything wrong, I'm learning.
Look at that chic lookin all serene and meditative.. But in her head she is thinking "what am i having for dinner" or "why hasnt he called me" or "how much longer".
Ain't that the truth. I'm sure that's the case for 99% of us most of the time. Like anything, being 'good' at meditation requires practice and a certain level of consistency. Nothing magic or instantaneous about it.
The problem is we have this perception that we are horrible mediators and everyone else is so great, look at how still they are for so long... Lol
Group practice is a great place. You sit in a room and watch people fall asleep on the cusion (happens a LOT), snoring, stomache growling, farts, burps, somebody's legs go numb and they try to do walking meditation.
And you think YOU have problems?
It's easy to sit stock-still. people may think you're the embodiment of serenity and all the while you can't stop thinking about the fight you had with your girlfriend two weeks ago.
In the end a million hours of meditation is just waiting for pennys to drop. Loads and loads of pennys. Until the pennys drop you can eight zillion hours of meditation and you are just sitting on your bum.
The insight takes its own sweet time. No microwave.
Be at ease and create good kamma. If you don't hit it in this life at least it is relaxing and a building spot for the next life. Or if you only have one life you might as well check out your mind while you can and develop a happy disposition to have good relationships and reasonable expectations ie calm about life.
In a way, yes, but in the Real World, who has the time/disposition/capacity/resources for a "full commitment"?
But there are always choices to be made, and I'd suggest that most lay-Buddhists could do more meditation if they really felt it was important ( me included! ).
Try opening your mind. It is really more effective than putting your bum on a cushion.
Please describe your method for "opening your mind", and then explain how it's more effective than sitting meditation.
I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to open their mind, it is hard enough to keep my own open. Unlike you I don't have a One Size Fits All approach to practice.
I was asking about your approach to "opening your mind", and why you think it's more effective than sitting meditation. I don't get the "one size fits all" comment since virtually all Buddhist traditions employ some form of sitting meditation.
In the end a million hours of meditation is just waiting for pennys to drop. Loads and loads of pennys. Until the pennys drop you can eight zillion hours of meditation and you are just sitting on your bum.
But don't you think meditation is a good way of getting some pennys to drop?
Look at that chic lookin all serene and meditative.. But in her head she is thinking "what am i having for dinner" or "why hasnt he called me" or "how much longer".
In the end a million hours of meditation is just waiting for pennys to drop. Loads and loads of pennys. Until the pennys drop you can eight zillion hours of meditation and you are just sitting on your bum.
But don't you think meditation is a good way of getting some pennys to drop?
Yes it is. But you can't overplay what 'states' you need to get into all the while there can be craving to states. There are three lords of materialism: craving for things, ideas, and states. So if you say in meditation that 'x' state is bad then you are caught by the lords of materialism.
Right meditation takes time. If bits of meditation proves itself helpful in leading you towards consistent meditation, then it would be worth it. Only you can find out, and only one way to find out, and that is to do it.
When I was running a Buddhist group I'd encourage people to try and do a little bit of meditation each day, saying that even 5 or 10 minutes was worthwhile. The problem is that from long experience of meditation I reckon that real progress requires at least an hour a day, and that doing less amounts to treading water. Or to put it another way, if somebody has a spare half hour then maybe they'd be better going for a nice walk than sitting on a cushion. Your thoughts?
I find that in my life I have time to meditate only at work. I manage more regularly now than when I thought I HAD to do it. I take the view that when I feel like meditating I do and when I don't, I don't. It works much better for me. Noone likes to do chores...
Since each moment is uniquely new, all anyone can ever do, is a bit of meditation, one moment at a time. Do not bother about the next moment or the last, just worry about the practice in the one moment you are presently in. Now you can take pride I suppose in stringing many such moments together, but the only one that can actually be meditated in , is this present one. So I think the real question always is, what are you actually doing with this moment.
I've talked to a lot of lay-Buddhists over the years, half an hour a day seems to be the norm. But I don't think it's enough.
It's enough to help me accept my illness and outcome of death. It's enough to help me keep my calm when I feel that things are not fair and too much to bear. It's enough because it's all I can do during my day of running off to tests and doctors and dropping off and picking up my daughter from school, cooking dinner and LIVING while I still can.
But please, tell me how I can better improve myself or meditation according to your standards.
But please, tell me how I can better improve myself or meditation according to your standards.
You are the gold standard. Be kind to the well meaning Dharma coppers . . . Time for me to sit like a bit of brass for a while, hope no one minds . . .
@SpinyNorman said:
When I was running a Buddhist group I'd encourage people to try and do a little bit of meditation each day, saying that even 5 or 10 minutes was worthwhile.
The problem is that from long experience of meditation I reckon that real progress requires at least an hour a day, and that doing less amounts to treading water. Or to put it another way, if somebody has a spare half hour then maybe they'd be better going for a nice walk than sitting on a cushion.
Your thoughts?
It is a tricky balance, we want to encourage people to participate but we cannot lie about their lack of progress with so little meditation and wisdom. It is one thing if they trained for a number of years in Dzogchen theory and practice, as spending 5 minutes here and there accomplishes more than many experience in a lifetime. However even an hour a day practicing the path of renunciation (theravada/mahayana) doesn't lead to much very often, generally one remains very far from liberation. The important thing to remember is that this path is based on renunciation devoting large portions of time in doing it, however it only passively raises the energy-volume-determining-the-scope-of-awareness (thigle) through mindfullness or concentration, this energy-volume is the single most important factor to bringing about nirvana. Which means this past doesn't provide ANY guarantee for achieve liberation in this lifetime.
I myself and others I have spoken to remark at what a difference there is in their meditation when merely practicing for an hour or two or three or four opposed to trying to live on one's mat and practice like 12-18 hours a day. It is a totally different experience with remarkably different results. If practicing theravada or mahayana, then it really is best to spend a lot of time doing it if one is trying to achieve in this lifetime.
However for those that can't practice long, it may be better for them to learn to have a valid cognition of emptiness and then practice tantrayana and then finally dzogchen. In the beginning the tantrayana will only be focused on realizing the emptiness of self and then phenomena, as the emptiness of self attainment is the starting point to being able to practice the essentials of the tantrayana, as well as the ability to discern the subtle energy, which most people cannot do.
So it is a very complicated paradox.
I probably would advise while giving them tantrayana lessons to do bodily awareness and mantra so they can hopefully pick up on discerning the subtle energy. Tantrayana, once having the emptiness of self attainment and the ability to discern the subtle energy, can guarantee englightenment in one lifetime if practiced correctly, as it provides a lower master over the energy-volume. Essential Dzogchen is even more efficient and provides an upper mastery, however the entry point to being able to practice actual dzogchen requires a glimpse of rigpa, which for most people will be most easily attained in tantrayana.
Let it be known I am distinguishing tantrayana from Dzogchen on the basis that tantrayana is the path of transformation and Dzogchen is the path of spontaneous liberation.
I personally believe in quality over quantity so how you spend your time meditating is more important then how long you do it IMO. 5-10 minutes of total awareness and focus is better then just sitting there for 30 minutes.
In those moments where the curtain seems to drop and there is no "I" to meditate anymore it always feels like I have broken through a new, deeper layer and I realize I have just replaced the "I" with another one.. In additon the past tells me that there are a lot of layers...
I've really enjoyed this thread. I missed it the first time around as I was taking a self-imposed time out for a few months from NB, lol.
Not everyone has the time to meditate for an hour a day. In my own experience, it definitely takes time, and I'm sure the more you can meditate, the less time it takes to settle the mind. But it can be done in shorter periods, it just takes more overall time to get to the same place. But, we aren't really trying to GET anywhere, so that doesn't matter. It sounds irresponsible, to me, to basically say "if you can't work up to meditate for an hour a day (or whatever) then you might as well not do it at all." That's like telling someone who wants to increase their fitness that a 15 minute walk is pointless, might as well not do anything if you can't walk for an hour.
I started with 5 minutes, it was all I could do. I can meditate for a half hour or longer now, but I rarely have the time to do an hour straight. I still get a lot of benefit which I notice in my every day life. When my meditation becomes erratic or less than, say, 20 minutes, it starts to impact my daily life more. Lately I've been extremely monkey-minded because we have a ton of stuff going on in our family life. All good stuff, just very, very busy: baseball tryouts, track meets, prom, garden prep, ACT tests, college visits, field trips, special school days, plays...it's never ending at this time of year, and even when I have the time to meditate, I have a very hard time doing it right now. But I still do it. And I take more time through the day to take a moment or 5 to return to my breath and bring everything together. It helps, for sure.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'm lucky if I can get to 'sit' for 30 minutes a week!
@Woah93 said:
I personally believe in quality over quantity so how you spend your time meditating is more important then how long you do it IMO. 5-10 minutes of total awareness and focus is better then just sitting there for 30 minutes.
Sure, though as I think has been previously mentioned, it can take some time to initially calm the mind - arguably that's when meditation proper begins.
@SpinyNorman said:
When I was running a Buddhist group I'd encourage people to try and do a little bit of meditation each day, saying that even 5 or 10 minutes was worthwhile.
The problem is that from long experience of meditation I reckon that real progress requires at least an hour a day, and that doing less amounts to treading water.
What kind of progress exactly and how can you monitor it in practical terms?
Apart from a formal meditation practice in group and solo, I make it a point to intersperse some breathing pauses throughout the day. For example, when I reboot my computer or when I sit down to sip my tea. They are probably only a round of ten deep breaths but I find these pauses incredibly grounding and revitalizing.
My thinking clears, and I feel more positive and energised. I don't know if I am any closer to enlightenment, but I'm sure those tiny pauses add to my Right View somehow.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
(They're also a great way of absorbing more oxygen, thereby pepping-up the brain...)
Quality over quantity should apply to meditation too. Using meditation in everyday life is part of the practice. Use quantity to reach quality. Once there is quality it goes beyond time.
Hello, i know thast threre are lots of definitions of Meditation. As this is a Buddhist forum, we should talk about the right buddhist meditation
This is the Eighfold Way. Nothin to add or to take away.
This meditation is means to change consciouness until the 8th Jhana is reached. After that there will be no instruction any more,except, that there a Maro-Dusi and Brahma.
In which way you do handele both of them is upon yourself.Try to find it out. Having reached this point you are at one of the highest points of human development.
Comments
But what do you think, is there really much point in meditating if it never goes beyond 15 minutes a day?
Personally I think 5 minutes of meditation a day will lead to tranquility and insight. The length of time it takes is irrelevent. This isn't a race we're running.
Is that what you were taught?
I was taught to meditate with eyes open and to not block out anything.
Yes, that is what I was given to believe. Not by any teacher, I never had one, but from different writings. So if that is wrong, then I am on the right track in how I do it. In which case, I can indeed sit for an extended period and let the thoughts come and go, not fighting to stay focused on any one thing.
Hell, a forum like this really isn't all that helpful. You'll get too much info and that will cause confusion and wandering with your practice. Best to learn to one technique and work with that exclusively and faithfull for a time before moving on to other things. In the tradition I practice in, we begin with simple Shamatha practice, when the instructor feels you've developed enough stability (time is irrelevant), then you are taught techniques that refine and enhance what you've already learned and practiced.
This isn't a relationship that needs daily attention. You can have a meditation instructor and see them only occaisionally. I see mine to discuss practice only a couple times a year. So if distance is an issue, then you need not worry. And I wouldn't be too picky about tradition. Any instruction is better than none, so if you're only choice is a Tibetan tradition, work with that.
I'm not saying they're not, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, but this is another reason why a teacher is valuable. When you have these realizations and insights, you can run them past the instructor for verification.
Secretly and very personally, I think I agree with you that anything short of full commitment seems pointless in the context.
Almost noone.
People will do what they're able to do. That's got to be enough
I have never had a direct meditation teacher, and my first years of meditation practice were very rough because i had read about stuff like.. Sit straight, back erect, watch the breath. I felt like such a failure and developed much negativity regarding meditation to the point that i basically quit a few years.
When i decided to try again, and i found teach ers like ajahn brahm that taught about being kind to your body and mind and learning to let go, my meditation practice has been positive and consistent since, for about the last 5 years.
When i came back to meditation i told myself that i will sit for as long as my mind and body want to. This started out at only a few minutes and continues to grow. I also decided i would just be there and observe whatever happened. This has helped me tremendously since ive always had trouble following my breath.
At this point in my practice i feel its time for me to work on concentration ability along with the observing all phenomenon. Ive come to find that a meditation practice that integrates concentration, insight, and metta mediation all in one. The Buddha taught this way i found out from Bhante G, and it makes the most sense to me.
Yes, I have to develop a more consistent and disciplined routine, or at least start out being more mindful.
Many of the mindfulness meditations can lead to insight as well concentration, while many insight meditations can lead to states of concentration. Right mindfulness consists of developing mindfulness in regard to the four frames or objects of reference, i.e., the body in and of itself, feelings in and of themselves, mind in and of itself, and mental qualities in and of themselves (DN 22).
The type of concentration that the Buddha is referring to in the context of right concentration is called jhana or meditative absorption, which can ultimately lead to the "ending of the mental fermentations" (AN 9.36). The basic quality here is that there's only one object or focus of mindful-awareness. This focus can eventually lead to states of rapture or joy (piti), which is a factor of the first jhana, all the way on through to the formless attainments—the highest of which is called "the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception."
The most popular method of achieving this type of meditative awareness is mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati), although the four frames of reference (satipatthana) can be used as well, especially when coupled with mindfulness of breathing. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu points out in his introduction to DN 22: The topics of insight meditation are also numerous, and, being entwined with concentration practice, can include things like the contemplation the five subjects of frequent reflection, the contemplation of the body, the contemplation of death, etc. In essence, when the mind of an individual has acquired a solid foundation of virtue, and after the mind has been calmed and settled to a point of focused awareness, it can then proceed to experience life via the profound context of the Dhamma and 'cleanse' itself of its defilements: As I understand it, the goal of meditation is to refine and strengthen one's mindfulness and awareness in order to be more perceptive of 'things as they are,' of stress as it arises and ceases and the mental processes by which this happens. And however one is able to achieve that is 'proper' in my book.
You can follow it for MAYBE 21 breaths before your mind wanders off to last night's Vikings game, or what's for dinner, or how much your job sucks, or .........
When you realize you're drifting you acknowledge the thought, let go of it and return to your breath.
Over and over and over again.
With practice you might get to 100, but that's not the point. The point is that you become aware of the drift and return to the object of meditation.
What ive come to find is that we are all struggling. My experiences are normal and near universal. This has allowed me to be much less critical of myself and much more honest with myself AND others.
I love being honest about my meditation struggles and failings because it allows others to realize what i did, and hopefully years earlier. Then again there is something to be said for learning through struggle on your own.
And you think YOU have problems?
It's easy to sit stock-still. people may think you're the embodiment of serenity and all the while you can't stop thinking about the fight you had with your girlfriend two weeks ago.
The insight takes its own sweet time. No microwave.
Be at ease and create good kamma. If you don't hit it in this life at least it is relaxing and a building spot for the next life. Or if you only have one life you might as well check out your mind while you can and develop a happy disposition to have good relationships and reasonable expectations ie calm about life.
From the founder of Lululemon... 60 second meditation.
i have about the same time scedule while doing the meditation of the Eightfold Path.
anando
I take the view that when I feel like meditating I do and when I don't, I don't. It works much better for me.
Noone likes to do chores...
Now you can take pride I suppose in stringing many such moments together, but the only one that can actually be meditated in , is this present one.
So I think the real question always is, what are you actually doing with this moment.
But please, tell me how I can better improve myself or meditation according to your standards.
It is a tricky balance, we want to encourage people to participate but we cannot lie about their lack of progress with so little meditation and wisdom. It is one thing if they trained for a number of years in Dzogchen theory and practice, as spending 5 minutes here and there accomplishes more than many experience in a lifetime. However even an hour a day practicing the path of renunciation (theravada/mahayana) doesn't lead to much very often, generally one remains very far from liberation. The important thing to remember is that this path is based on renunciation devoting large portions of time in doing it, however it only passively raises the energy-volume-determining-the-scope-of-awareness (thigle) through mindfullness or concentration, this energy-volume is the single most important factor to bringing about nirvana. Which means this past doesn't provide ANY guarantee for achieve liberation in this lifetime.
I myself and others I have spoken to remark at what a difference there is in their meditation when merely practicing for an hour or two or three or four opposed to trying to live on one's mat and practice like 12-18 hours a day. It is a totally different experience with remarkably different results. If practicing theravada or mahayana, then it really is best to spend a lot of time doing it if one is trying to achieve in this lifetime.
However for those that can't practice long, it may be better for them to learn to have a valid cognition of emptiness and then practice tantrayana and then finally dzogchen. In the beginning the tantrayana will only be focused on realizing the emptiness of self and then phenomena, as the emptiness of self attainment is the starting point to being able to practice the essentials of the tantrayana, as well as the ability to discern the subtle energy, which most people cannot do.
So it is a very complicated paradox.
I probably would advise while giving them tantrayana lessons to do bodily awareness and mantra so they can hopefully pick up on discerning the subtle energy. Tantrayana, once having the emptiness of self attainment and the ability to discern the subtle energy, can guarantee englightenment in one lifetime if practiced correctly, as it provides a lower master over the energy-volume. Essential Dzogchen is even more efficient and provides an upper mastery, however the entry point to being able to practice actual dzogchen requires a glimpse of rigpa, which for most people will be most easily attained in tantrayana.
Let it be known I am distinguishing tantrayana from Dzogchen on the basis that tantrayana is the path of transformation and Dzogchen is the path of spontaneous liberation.
I personally believe in quality over quantity so how you spend your time meditating is more important then how long you do it IMO. 5-10 minutes of total awareness and focus is better then just sitting there for 30 minutes.
In those moments where the curtain seems to drop and there is no "I" to meditate anymore it always feels like I have broken through a new, deeper layer and I realize I have just replaced the "I" with another one.. In additon the past tells me that there are a lot of layers...
I've really enjoyed this thread. I missed it the first time around as I was taking a self-imposed time out for a few months from NB, lol.
Not everyone has the time to meditate for an hour a day. In my own experience, it definitely takes time, and I'm sure the more you can meditate, the less time it takes to settle the mind. But it can be done in shorter periods, it just takes more overall time to get to the same place. But, we aren't really trying to GET anywhere, so that doesn't matter. It sounds irresponsible, to me, to basically say "if you can't work up to meditate for an hour a day (or whatever) then you might as well not do it at all." That's like telling someone who wants to increase their fitness that a 15 minute walk is pointless, might as well not do anything if you can't walk for an hour.
I started with 5 minutes, it was all I could do. I can meditate for a half hour or longer now, but I rarely have the time to do an hour straight. I still get a lot of benefit which I notice in my every day life. When my meditation becomes erratic or less than, say, 20 minutes, it starts to impact my daily life more. Lately I've been extremely monkey-minded because we have a ton of stuff going on in our family life. All good stuff, just very, very busy: baseball tryouts, track meets, prom, garden prep, ACT tests, college visits, field trips, special school days, plays...it's never ending at this time of year, and even when I have the time to meditate, I have a very hard time doing it right now. But I still do it. And I take more time through the day to take a moment or 5 to return to my breath and bring everything together. It helps, for sure.
I'm lucky if I can get to 'sit' for 30 minutes a week!
Sure, though as I think has been previously mentioned, it can take some time to initially calm the mind - arguably that's when meditation proper begins.
What kind of progress exactly and how can you monitor it in practical terms?
Apart from a formal meditation practice in group and solo, I make it a point to intersperse some breathing pauses throughout the day. For example, when I reboot my computer or when I sit down to sip my tea. They are probably only a round of ten deep breaths but I find these pauses incredibly grounding and revitalizing.
My thinking clears, and I feel more positive and energised. I don't know if I am any closer to enlightenment, but I'm sure those tiny pauses add to my Right View somehow.
(They're also a great way of absorbing more oxygen, thereby pepping-up the brain...)
Quality over quantity should apply to meditation too. Using meditation in everyday life is part of the practice. Use quantity to reach quality. Once there is quality it goes beyond time.
Use quantity to reach quality.
Good point. In my experience with meditation quantity often leads to quality - like doing a lot of meditation on a retreat for example.
That's a good practice, but it sounds more like mindfulness than meditation.
A great master once said: As long as you're aware that you're meditating, you're not meditating.
Hello, i know thast threre are lots of definitions of Meditation. As this is a Buddhist forum, we should talk about the right buddhist meditation
This is the Eighfold Way. Nothin to add or to take away.
This meditation is means to change consciouness until the 8th Jhana is reached. After that there will be no instruction any more,except, that there a Maro-Dusi and Brahma.
In which way you do handele both of them is upon yourself.Try to find it out. Having reached this point you are at one of the highest points of human development.
anando