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Did my 2 posts to your 10 warrant "@how, why keep going on?"
You were the one asking "please explain to me the Buddhist aspect of emptying the dishwasher. Then perhaps I will understand your perspective."
I responded to your question with a standard Buddhist perspective to emptying a dishwasher but apparently what you heard was that I didn't understand your view.
If one is practicing Buddhist meditation, then as much as you allow that to be the platform from which to observe life, then that is the degree to which life will reflect the Buddhist Dharma. What you call compulsiveness, some call skillful means.
There is this defensiveness (and I use that term intentionally) to describe the only way I think I could ride the two different religions that you are astride when conversations come up that could potentially disturb one or the other.
@How, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my point of asking why go on. I was not talking about you going on. I was talking about no need for me to go on. I stated my opinion and clarified it. I see no sense in me going on and on about it. People may reject it or may think about it.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2015
@SpinyNorman said:Yes, that's a familiar theme. Though you seem more interested in criticising Buddhism than actually practising it.
How could he? Why should he? As far as I am given to understand, he does not consider himself 'Buddhist '...
@vinlyn -
You're right in saying "clearing the dishwasher is just clearing the dishwasher".
Yet... One can choose what goes through the mind when clearing the dishwasher.
1) I do it because it's my responsibility
2) I do it because no one seems to want to do it
3) I do it (using this time) as a spiritual cleansing of a negative emotion (maybe anger)
4) I do it so the kitchen is clean and tidy, thereby inspires peace
Should practicing the Dharma be fun/enjoyable?
My answer is yes.
3) and 4)
@how said:> There is this defensiveness (and I use that term intentionally) to describe the only way I think I could ride the two different religions that you are astride when conversations come up that could potentially disturb one or the other.
Indeed. But returning to the OP, it seems to me that spiritual practice brings a deeper sense of joy. I mean there's nothing wrong with humour and sometimes you just have to laugh, but there is a kind of superficiality about it.
@vinlyn lol I laughed at your example of someone praising the emptying of the dishwasher, because sometimes, I basically do just that!
For me, it isn't about being obsessed or overly attached to Buddhism. It is just that sometimes in mundane moments I remind myself that no moment is every really mundane. That I can stand while washing dishes and stew that I am missing part of my favorite tv show or I can appreciate the fact that I have running water and dishes to wash and a family to take care of. And to change my perspective (in accordance with the mindfulness that I try to practice increasingly) I have to change how I am thinking and feeling about what I am doing. So instead of letting my mind wander into how I am frustrated I am missing something or bored, then I try to focus exclusively on what I am doing and sometimes that means talking myself (to myself) through it. It is how I train myself towards what I hope to hold better in the future.
The more I do it, the more Buddhism flows into my life naturally without having to think about it so much. I want to be able to live Buddha's teachings in all my moments of all my days...without having to obsess and think over it so much. But right now, I am still a Buddha-in-training. When it becomes part of your heart rather than part of your head/logic, then you operate from it automatically. I'm sure most of us know people of who are able to do that, like TNH. He probably is able to operate out of Buddhism all the time without having to think about it. But he still practices is and to get there practiced it a lot through many decades.
It seems to me we don't get to living Buddhism if we don't practice living it. For me, it is helpful to do things like purposefully apply the teachings to any moment I happen to remember to. Including washing dishes. You (vinlyn) said something like "When I am washing dishes, I am washing dishes." That is exactly the goal! That is what I hope to do. To just be washing the dishes. Instead of washing dishes, flinging water and soap because I am frustrated about having to wash so many dishes, thinking about the thousand other things I have to do in 3 weeks, etc. Being mindful means "just doing the dishes."
Uh oh...sorry guys...I had typed it out once back on a thread here in 2012..( I was being lazy today and just linked the google book)......I went back and found it...I'll cut and paste it here:
DO THE DISHES
BENEFITS
*Helps you focus and concentrate
*Transforms ordinary chores into a practice
*Teaches everyday mindfullness
How can dishwashing be a meditation? The Zen tradition encourages you to perform every action with total one-pointed awareness and attention.
You may have some difficulty paying such close and undivided attention to washing your dishes at first.
You may feel bored because you are accustomed to using dishwashing time to think
about other things, or listen to music. If you can transcend your initial boredom,
you will reap the joys of mindfullness.
PRACTICE
Slowly pick up your first dish and begin washing it.
Focus on the sink and the dish.
If thoughts intervene, return focus.
When the dish is clean, slowly and mindfully place it in the drainer.
Pick up your next dish, and continue in the same manner.
Your mind may stray, but try to stay in the present and the task at hand.
Approach the experience as if it is the very first time you have ever
washed the dishes.
Even though it will take much longer than usual, wash every item
in this manner. Although exaggerated, try to bring this level of awareness
and deliberate attention to everything you do.
Keep your mind present and engaged.
Notice if you feel more relaxed and peaceful approaching your
life in this way.
@Zenni said:
vinlyn -
You're right in saying "clearing the dishwasher is just clearing the dishwasher".
Yet... One can choose what goes through the mind when clearing the dishwasher.
1) I do it because it's my responsibility
2) I do it because no one seems to want to do it
3) I do it (using this time) as a spiritual cleansing of a negative emotion (maybe anger)
4) I do it so the kitchen is clean and tidy, thereby inspires peace
Should practicing the Dharma be fun/enjoyable?
My answer is yes.
3) and 4)
Namaste
Zenni
Zenni, thank you for writing this. The first that (in my view) is even trying to see the point I am making.
And I think you are getting at what I was saying about multi-tasking. Clearing the dishwasher is just clearing the dishwasher. But while I am clearing the dishwasher I can be occupying my mind with Buddhist thoughts. The clearing of the dishwasher is pretty much a physical-by-habit task since we do it almost every day. Therefore the mind is free to be occupied with mindfulness on things (like you mention) that really are Buddhist-related.
It's very much like yesterday when I was in one helluva driving mess when we got 4-8 inches of hail while I was out driving. While I was trying to drive home on local streets, all my mental energies were occupied with just the driving part...not getting stuck for a second time (thanks to 3 young guys who pushed me out), not hitting another car or avoiding getting hit, etc.). I mistakenly thought that if I got on the interstate things would get better. Well, things went into a virtual standstill for about an hour on the interstate. And it was during that time that I could refocus a relatively freed mind to spiritual considerations. And I did. Yes, I still had to pay a bit of attention to the road and driving, but at 4 miles an hour that left a lot of mind free to calm myself, free to begin to worry more about others in the situation, etc.
I'm taught (this is non Buddhist, but a truth is a truth) that a good spiritual path should take us out of our comfort zones. I mean practising compassion can be uncomfortable, unless we're only doing it from the safety of our mat.
And some of the most transformative things I've done (had to do to stay sober) have taken me waaaaaay out of my comfort zone. Even getting honest with people I've harmed; definitely not fun; very scary stuff for me.
But positive stuff like joy are a result of coming out of my comfort zones and being uncomfortable for a time.
I don't know that "fun" and "enjoyable" are quite the right words. I think any spirituality is a slow process of letting go of smaller joys to attain bigger ones. At times that process is anything but joyful and, in fact, quite the opposite. To stick with it, one needs strong faith and clear intention.
That said, I think that along the path we will periodically experience happiness directly as its result. We should enjoy that but not take those periods for the final destination. I also think that little by little one's overall level of suffering should diminish- otherwise, the path is probably not the right one.
Would you say that "Happiness is the Truth" in the conventional experiential sense when it comes to practising the Dharma ?
And before anybody takes the video clip too "seriously" no I don't mean happy clappy wavy Buddhists dancing in the street, ( mind you, if this was their way of expression, who am I to judge...I'd most probably join them )
@vinlyn said:>But while I am clearing the dishwasher I can be occupying my mind with Buddhist thoughts. The clearing of the dishwasher is pretty much a physical-by-habit task since we do it almost every day. Therefore the mind is free to be occupied with mindfulness on things (like you mention) that really are Buddhist-related.
That isn't mindfulness, that's thinking about one thing while doing another.
I am one of the newest here at NewBuddhist and I am very new, reading Buddhism.
I must say I don't know much.
But ever since I decided to walk The Path, I begin to experience peace and joy.
Although I am still living at the same place and with the same people, my thoughts and feelings are different. For more than 20 years, I used to cry myself to sleep every night. I don't do that anymore. This is not to say that I don't have struggles. I do, each and every day. I try to learn from the challenge in front of me. Because I know there is another one on the way.
As @Howard aptly put it...
"The purpose of meditation in most forms of Buddhism is meant to be taken from the formal or static form into all aspects of daily life..."
@federica - may I borrow your mummy's favourite song...
I've been having a sweet dream
I've been dreaming since I woke up today
It's starring me and my sweet dream
'Cause she's the one that makes me feel this way
@Shoshin said:
Should Practising The Dharma Be fun /Enjoyable ? ( look forward to the practice)
Can one take Dharma practice seriously and still enjoy it ? (not see it as some kind of a chore)
It can be fun and enjoyable but without the attaching, clinging, and craving.
"Don't practice to become enlightened-Let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment !" This just about sums it up (well for me anyway)
@Shoshin said:
Should Practising The Dharma Be fun, Enjoyable? ( look forward to the practice)
Can one take Dharma practice seriously and still enjoy it ? (not see it as some kind of a chore)
I had pretty intense fear come up while doing self inquiry into who or what was thinking? After accepting the fear for the most part and not trying to resist it to much the truth revealed itself.
When you begin to question a lifetime of beliefs of course resistance comes up. But nothing worth it is ever easy. In fact I know always taking the easy street is a mistake that leads into suffering.
Follow your hearts guys, even if it leads you off the beaten track!
I'm reading Thay's "Awakening of the Heart," and he offers different practices on how to introduce joy and happiness into our practice.
He goes as far as saying that following one's breath in daily life and nourishing ourselves with joy are the most important aspects of our practice.
"When we feel joyful, concentration is easy. When we do not feel joyful, it can be difficult to concentrate. When we are concentrated, we see more clearly and have a deeper understanding of things."
During my earlier sessions of meditation, I experienced peace.
Along the way... I am beginning to feel joy too.
Forgiveness comes easy.
I am able to understand "uncomfortable situations" better.
Namaste
2
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@karasti said: "So instead of letting my mind wander into how I am frustrated I am missing something or bored, then I try to focus exclusively on what I am doing and sometimes that means talking myself (to myself) through it. It is how I train myself towards what I hope to hold better in the future."
Yes, yes! I find chatting with myself while doing dishes, etc., is surprisingly helpful. Or you could say I've gone senile.
I remember after my aunt died at age 40 I caught my grandmother often talking to herself. What I didn't realize at my young age then (teenager) was that she had had a nervous breakdown. Just sayin'.
Comments
I understand your viewpoint.
@vinlyn
Did my 2 posts to your 10 warrant "@how, why keep going on?"
You were the one asking "please explain to me the Buddhist aspect of emptying the dishwasher. Then perhaps I will understand your perspective."
I responded to your question with a standard Buddhist perspective to emptying a dishwasher but apparently what you heard was that I didn't understand your view.
If one is practicing Buddhist meditation, then as much as you allow that to be the platform from which to observe life, then that is the degree to which life will reflect the Buddhist Dharma. What you call compulsiveness, some call skillful means.
There is this defensiveness (and I use that term intentionally) to describe the only way I think I could ride the two different religions that you are astride when conversations come up that could potentially disturb one or the other.
@How, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my point of asking why go on. I was not talking about you going on. I was talking about no need for me to go on. I stated my opinion and clarified it. I see no sense in me going on and on about it. People may reject it or may think about it.
How could he? Why should he? As far as I am given to understand, he does not consider himself 'Buddhist '...
The sense of a self that still clings to this Samsaric existence....
@vinlyn -
You're right in saying "clearing the dishwasher is just clearing the dishwasher".
Yet... One can choose what goes through the mind when clearing the dishwasher.
1) I do it because it's my responsibility
2) I do it because no one seems to want to do it
3) I do it (using this time) as a spiritual cleansing of a negative emotion (maybe anger)
4) I do it so the kitchen is clean and tidy, thereby inspires peace
Should practicing the Dharma be fun/enjoyable?
My answer is yes.
3) and 4)
Namaste
Zenni
I think you are right @Zenni about daily mindful emptying of Tara dishwasher (Ours was formally known as Zenussi)
It is a potential practice of slow, careful emptying, rather than frenzied rush, before going on to the next 'chore'.
@lobster - thank you for your precious comment.
For I know now, I'm on the right track of The Path.
ps. Many things are new to me, words, terms etc.
I googled the word "Zenussi" thinking its Sanskrit.
And found that it's a brand of home appliance.
Very good! I remember thinking that a lot of Pali words sounded like Indian curry dishes.
Indeed. But returning to the OP, it seems to me that spiritual practice brings a deeper sense of joy. I mean there's nothing wrong with humour and sometimes you just have to laugh, but there is a kind of superficiality about it.
@vinlyn lol I laughed at your example of someone praising the emptying of the dishwasher, because sometimes, I basically do just that!
For me, it isn't about being obsessed or overly attached to Buddhism. It is just that sometimes in mundane moments I remind myself that no moment is every really mundane. That I can stand while washing dishes and stew that I am missing part of my favorite tv show or I can appreciate the fact that I have running water and dishes to wash and a family to take care of. And to change my perspective (in accordance with the mindfulness that I try to practice increasingly) I have to change how I am thinking and feeling about what I am doing. So instead of letting my mind wander into how I am frustrated I am missing something or bored, then I try to focus exclusively on what I am doing and sometimes that means talking myself (to myself) through it. It is how I train myself towards what I hope to hold better in the future.
The more I do it, the more Buddhism flows into my life naturally without having to think about it so much. I want to be able to live Buddha's teachings in all my moments of all my days...without having to obsess and think over it so much. But right now, I am still a Buddha-in-training. When it becomes part of your heart rather than part of your head/logic, then you operate from it automatically. I'm sure most of us know people of who are able to do that, like TNH. He probably is able to operate out of Buddhism all the time without having to think about it. But he still practices is and to get there practiced it a lot through many decades.
It seems to me we don't get to living Buddhism if we don't practice living it. For me, it is helpful to do things like purposefully apply the teachings to any moment I happen to remember to. Including washing dishes. You (vinlyn) said something like "When I am washing dishes, I am washing dishes." That is exactly the goal! That is what I hope to do. To just be washing the dishes. Instead of washing dishes, flinging water and soap because I am frustrated about having to wash so many dishes, thinking about the thousand other things I have to do in 3 weeks, etc. Being mindful means "just doing the dishes."
@SpinyNorman
- Thank you 
I simply love the way you introduce the word "Pali" to me. Thank you so much. Now I know what is Sanskrit and what is Pali.
And yes, I agree with you...
In my earlier post, I mentioned I experienced "quiet joy"..
... a deep sense of joy is THE description.
Namaste
Uh oh...sorry guys...I had typed it out once back on a thread here in 2012..( I was being lazy today and just linked the google book)......I went back and found it...I'll cut and paste it here:
DO THE DISHES
BENEFITS
*Helps you focus and concentrate
*Transforms ordinary chores into a practice
*Teaches everyday mindfullness
How can dishwashing be a meditation? The Zen tradition encourages you to perform every action with total one-pointed awareness and attention.
You may have some difficulty paying such close and undivided attention to washing your dishes at first.
You may feel bored because you are accustomed to using dishwashing time to think
about other things, or listen to music. If you can transcend your initial boredom,
you will reap the joys of mindfullness.
PRACTICE
Slowly pick up your first dish and begin washing it.
Focus on the sink and the dish.
If thoughts intervene, return focus.
When the dish is clean, slowly and mindfully place it in the drainer.
Pick up your next dish, and continue in the same manner.
Your mind may stray, but try to stay in the present and the task at hand.
Approach the experience as if it is the very first time you have ever
washed the dishes.
Even though it will take much longer than usual, wash every item
in this manner. Although exaggerated, try to bring this level of awareness
and deliberate attention to everything you do.
Keep your mind present and engaged.
Notice if you feel more relaxed and peaceful approaching your
life in this way.
The Meditation Bible
Madonna Gauding
Zenni, thank you for writing this. The first that (in my view) is even trying to see the point I am making.
And I think you are getting at what I was saying about multi-tasking. Clearing the dishwasher is just clearing the dishwasher. But while I am clearing the dishwasher I can be occupying my mind with Buddhist thoughts. The clearing of the dishwasher is pretty much a physical-by-habit task since we do it almost every day. Therefore the mind is free to be occupied with mindfulness on things (like you mention) that really are Buddhist-related.
Thank you, @Zenni.
It's very much like yesterday when I was in one helluva driving mess when we got 4-8 inches of hail while I was out driving. While I was trying to drive home on local streets, all my mental energies were occupied with just the driving part...not getting stuck for a second time (thanks to 3 young guys who pushed me out), not hitting another car or avoiding getting hit, etc.). I mistakenly thought that if I got on the interstate things would get better. Well, things went into a virtual standstill for about an hour on the interstate. And it was during that time that I could refocus a relatively freed mind to spiritual considerations. And I did. Yes, I still had to pay a bit of attention to the road and driving, but at 4 miles an hour that left a lot of mind free to calm myself, free to begin to worry more about others in the situation, etc.
I'm taught (this is non Buddhist, but a truth is a truth) that a good spiritual path should take us out of our comfort zones. I mean practising compassion can be uncomfortable, unless we're only doing it from the safety of our mat.
And some of the most transformative things I've done (had to do to stay sober) have taken me waaaaaay out of my comfort zone. Even getting honest with people I've harmed; definitely not fun; very scary stuff for me.
But positive stuff like joy are a result of coming out of my comfort zones and being uncomfortable for a time.
That said, I think that along the path we will periodically experience happiness directly as its result. We should enjoy that but not take those periods for the final destination. I also think that little by little one's overall level of suffering should diminish- otherwise, the path is probably not the right one.
Another way this question can be phrased :
Would you say that "Happiness is the Truth" in the conventional experiential sense when it comes to practising the Dharma ?
And before anybody takes the video clip too "seriously" no I don't mean happy clappy wavy Buddhists dancing in the street, ( mind you, if this was their way of expression, who am I to judge...I'd most probably join them
)
Yes indeed. Mindfulness is all the rage at the moment. Many thanks.
Not another time to 'escape' but another time to be present in the experience. Here are other examples:
http://tinybuddha.com/blog/mindfulness-in-everyday-tasks-5-ways-chores-can-make-you-happier/
That isn't mindfulness, that's thinking about one thing while doing another.
@vinlyn - and thank you too for sharing
I am one of the newest here at NewBuddhist and I am very new, reading Buddhism.
I must say I don't know much.
But ever since I decided to walk The Path, I begin to experience peace and joy.
Although I am still living at the same place and with the same people, my thoughts and feelings are different. For more than 20 years, I used to cry myself to sleep every night. I don't do that anymore. This is not to say that I don't have struggles. I do, each and every day. I try to learn from the challenge in front of me. Because I know there is another one on the way.
As @Howard aptly put it...
"The purpose of meditation in most forms of Buddhism is meant to be taken from the formal or static form into all aspects of daily life..."
@federica - may I borrow your mummy's favourite song...
I've been having a sweet dream
I've been dreaming since I woke up today
It's starring me and my sweet dream
'Cause she's the one that makes me feel this way
I hope you have a nice and peaceful day.
Namaste
Zenni
It can be fun and enjoyable but without the attaching, clinging, and craving.
"Don't practice to become enlightened-Let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment !" This just about sums it up (well for me anyway)
Discipline removes the distinction.
Just do it.
Some interesting thoughts on living in this world by Ajahn Chah.
Or in another way, on addressing the practice to hand.
No but in the end it should lead you to truth.
Remember the story of Buddha and Mara?
I had pretty intense fear come up while doing self inquiry into who or what was thinking? After accepting the fear for the most part and not trying to resist it to much the truth revealed itself.
When you begin to question a lifetime of beliefs of course resistance comes up. But nothing worth it is ever easy. In fact I know always taking the easy street is a mistake that leads into suffering.
Follow your hearts guys, even if it leads you off the beaten track!
With metta
I'm reading Thay's "Awakening of the Heart," and he offers different practices on how to introduce joy and happiness into our practice.
He goes as far as saying that following one's breath in daily life and nourishing ourselves with joy are the most important aspects of our practice.
Yes, @DhammaDragon ❤️ Thank you for the quote.
During my earlier sessions of meditation, I experienced peace.
Along the way... I am beginning to feel joy too.
Forgiveness comes easy.
I am able to understand "uncomfortable situations" better.
Namaste
Yes, yes! I find chatting with myself while doing dishes, etc., is surprisingly helpful. Or you could say I've gone senile.
I remember after my aunt died at age 40 I caught my grandmother often talking to herself. What I didn't realize at my young age then (teenager) was that she had had a nervous breakdown. Just sayin'.