Planning an experiment
misecmisc1
I am a HinduIndia Veteran
hi all,
i am planning an experiment on myself 
. this coming saturday i am thinking to go on a retreat at my rented flat in my work-city. actually few days back, my wife and my 4 year old daughter went to our native place and will be coming back after few days. so this weekend i am alone at my rented flat, so a thought came to my mind to let me try to feel the experience of a retreat at my rented flat. so i searched for retreat schedule on internet and got some listings containing schedules for retreats - seeing them, my face expression was something like 
- so i thought to make my retreat schedule. tomorrow i.e. friday i may have to work till 11pm, so i am thinking of getting up around 6am on saturday, then have morning tea by 6:30am, then 6:30 to 7 sitting meditation, 7 to 7:30 walking meditation, 7:30 to 8 will try to sit again, 8 to 9 breakfast, 9 to 10 some relaxing by hearing music or watching tv, 10 to 10:30 again will try to sit, 10:30 to 11 walking meditation, 11 to 11:30 standing or lying down meditation, then 11:30 to 12:30 lunch, 12:30 to 2:30 sleep in afternoon, 2:30 to 3 tea, 3 to 3:30 will try to sit, 3:30 to 4 walking meditation, 4 to 5 some relaxing by hearing music or watching tv, 5 to 5:30 tea, 5:30 to 6 metta meditation, 6 to 6:30 will try to sit, 6:30 to 7 walking meditation, 7 to 8 relaxing by hearing music or watching tv, 8 to 9 dinner and then sleep.
i will see how the above plan goes. but recently i am finding that whatever i plan for the future usually does not happen in reality, so may be the above retreat plan does not even actually happen, but i will try for it.
i have not gone to any retreat till now, so the above plan shall be my first retreat, if it happens.
any tips, suggestions please. thanks in advance.
metta to you and all sentient beings.
Comments
Hi @misecmisc1said: "I will see how the above plan goes. but recently i am finding that whatever I plan for the future usually does not happen in reality, so may be the above retreat plan does not even actually happen, but I will try for it," Am wondering your purpose in this experiment. I wondered if you have trouble with meditation in general and if that is the reason for the experiment. Just my two cents, that mapping out such an exact plan would be stifling for me and perhaps the rigid planning is something that has partly led to some of your plans not working out.
Go for it!
Indeed.
Too rigid.
too intense.
I'm predicting failure because you're trying to run a 50-mile marathon with training that has solely comprised of a quick walk around your garden once a day....
Good heavens, i wouldn't attempt something like this unless I had been already meditating intensely for at least a year!
Does your wife know you intend to go on a retreat? What if she needs to call you or speak with you?
shoot for the moon and you may still land in the stars.
My only quibble is: if you're working till 11 p.m the day before, you might be too tired to begin at 6 a.m the following day.
The idea could be to unwind softly into the schedule: make it a meditative but also a relaxing day.
Isn't there a spa nearby? Make some walking meditation to the spa, for instance, and splurge in a relaxing massage to make a break...
Good luck, @misecmisc1!
Yeah, but..... they're a lot further away.......
Nothing wrong with tinkering a bit with the schedule, @misecmisc1.
A friend and I once did an all-day retreat. We were pretty serious -- probably solemn -- Zen students at the time. We went to the same Zen center and were planning to borrow from that schedule. We began at a time that made some leeway for my 30-minute subway ride to his house ... maybe 6-630 a.m. We had roughed out a schedule in serious tones.
The first 40-50 minutes were to be devoted to chanting the "morning service" that we both knew, one of us holding the bell, the other doing the drum beats. Everything went pretty much as planned until we got to one chant (the Kannon Ten-Clause Sutra) that began at a moderate pace and tone and then built up speed and volume until, at the end, as expected, we would both be screaming our lungs out. But we never made it. Suddenly, in the middle of our intensity, we got to laughing and I mean laughing our asses off. We couldn't stop. When one of us tried to stop, the other would make a similar attempt and then the whole thing would collapse into laughter all over again. Honest to god, I don't know how we ever stopped laughing.
Somehow we did, I guess, and followed through the rest of the sitting-walking-lunchbreak-tea-chanting-bows until into the evening. With the exception of a sitting at a maximum security prison I once did, that laughter was probably the best instructor I ever met.
@misecmisc1
How long a period are you now meditating for?
Is this retreat schedule do-able considering the lengths of your current meditation periods?
Maybe sub some very basic Buddhist readings instead of the music or TV break.
You might also want to consider including some scheduled basic working mindfulness like meal prep and cleaning.
I think that setting up a schedule and then just following it is a very helpful meditative tool especially for anyone with a mentality that would otherwise be trying to co-opt the retreat.
Way to go for it...Bro.
and remember that a retreat is really about whatever priority you make of it in your life.
& judging how we are doing in a retreat is just another way of not doing a retreat.
no spa near by i think, so bad luck for me
well, yesterday one more weird thing happened - till day before yesterday, the tv was coming ok with all the channels from the cable, but when yesterday i turned on the tv to view some programme, the message showed - no signal. then i called the support desk for the cable and they suggested some methods, which i worked on, but the cable did not come. then they said that it seems a complex issue, so we can send a technician to your house tomorrow morning, but i said that i will be in office tomorrow morning and by the time i come back from office tomorrow it will be evening, so tomorrow morning i will give a call to confirm the time if i can reach home early to call the technician. now today it will be evening when i reach home and the only time the technician can come is tomorrow morning - but tomorrow i have planned the above thing, so i shall not call the technician tomorrow, so tomorrow i would not be able to see tv to relax
.
so tomorrow i will have only my laptop to hear some movie songs to relax
.
Hey @misecmisc1 - Who needs the idiot box when you can try some visualization exercises. Just a thought.
Just my opinion @misecmisc1 - I think you're trying to do too much.
A little at a time is ok.
Don't become disheartened if you don't stick to your schedule.
I wish you luck!
i don't know. i think i am bad at that. i can think too much, but that can be just words chattering in my mind, but to visualize something slightly seems difficult for me. i can try to visualize the sea shore, but that will add thoughts of memories of when i went to the sea-shore along with my friends and the chatter will continue from there on.
i am kind of a very stupid idiot person, highly confused, can think too much but not skillfully, full of defilements of lust, anger, greed, attachment, aversion and ego inside me and last, but not the least or probably the greatest weakness of mine is that i do not know how to meditate as i cannot sit still without my body moving for even few seconds.
so my above plan in my first post of this thread, may not work out even 5% in reality, but i will still try for the above plan.
hi all,
thanks for all your wishes. you all are very nice people.
You sound a lot like me! I would like to encourage you to try it, maybe wedge a few minutes in between certain activities on your schedule. It can't hurt to try and gently bring your thoughts back to the sounds of the ocean, just hearing the seagulls and the water rushing up to the shore and that's about it.
We can't get skillful without practice.
if you ask for how long a duration i have sat by setting an alarm in my mobile, then i think i have sat for 40 minutes and sometimes i have set alarm for more than 50 minutes, but the problem is i guess my body moves (may be due to thoughts coming in my mind i dont know) after a few seconds - so my meditation is not having any calm or stillness in it, so you can say i have not meditated for even 5 minutes till now.
i struck spirituality accidentally, not physically but through a series of events as one thing leading to next thing and so on. this is how my spiritual journey started - nearly 4 years ago, when my daughter was born, then after 3 or 4 months of that, i read a pdf file on healthy living and it said for keeping the mind healthy, you should read and for keeping the spirit healthy you should pray, chant or read religious books - so this lead me to a thought that why not read a spiritual book so that i get the advantage of both reading and spirituality, so i thought of reading Shreemad Bhagwad Geeta's commentaries on internet, searched for it, found a url, read its complete commentary, even though i had bought this book nearly 3 years prior to it, but never read it - then i came to know that there is something called meditation, so i started searching for meditation and came to know about the YogaSutras by Patanjali, then i started sitting in meditation, then one day a thought came to my mind that i read in my history book that Buddha attained nirvana, so i thought that he might have meditated and after he attained nirvana, he might have taught something about meditation, so i started searching on internet for Buddha's teachings and came across the pdf file containing Buddha's teachings, then i came to know about 4NT, 8FP, DO etc - then i came to know about anapanasati sutta, then tried to do it, then had meditation queries so searched for it on internet, then came across this website, and then from you all came to know about Therevada, Mahayan, Zen etc - then came to know about Dogen - searched for his teachings and read web-pages or pdf files on Genjokoan, Uji, Fukanzazengi or their commentaries by Zen teachers - and came to know about zazen.
so i think since the last 3.5 years, i try to sit daily though there are breaks happening when i have to travel in morning time or suppose have to work till late night and go to office early morning next day, but i think from the last 3 years, i at least try to sit daily in the morning, whenever i can, by setting an alarm in my mobile, even though i do not have any stillness in my meditation.
initially i tried anapanasati, but these days i am trying zazen as theoretically it gives me the flexibility that whatever is happening in the moment just be aware about it and go back to breath, as you all suggested in my last thread.
sorry for the above long post, as i said earlier i am kind of a very idiot person and the way my spiritual journey started and is continuing till now as i told in my above paragraphs, i even do not know why i struck spirituality at the first place.
I personally think tv is not a great option because it will clutter the mind that you have already calmed down with meditation. I would wait until night tine and watch a buddhist talk.
The mind absorbs words but doesn't as much sounds, that's why retreats are often silent only.
With metta!
It looks too busy to me, a simpler programme might be easier. Also I'd recommend going for at least one long walk during the day, the exercise would be good after all that sitting down.
hi all,
what about the afternoon sleep of 2 hours from 12:30 to 2:30 in above plan? do in retreats, the people after lunch take a sleep or after lunch, they do not take a sleep or a nap, rather they continue walking meditation directly after lunch and then sitting meditation? any information here, please. thanks in advance.
On most of the retreats I've been on there is some free time after lunch. Some people have a nap, but it's probably better to go for a walk. Doing more meditation can go either way, maybe bringing out an underlying tiredness if it's there, or having an energising effect. Maybe just see how you feel?
any last minute suggestions for tomorrow, please? i am online for the next half hour. thanks in advance.
i am thinking of relaxing tomorrow and see how the above plan (if it actually works out) goes.
Give it a try. Who knows what will come of it! Just be gentle and patient with yourself if it doesn't work out as planned. Sometimes when things do not work out, the gifts are better than if it had. And perhaps use it as a starting point for a more regular (if you aren't there yet) meditation practice at home. Do you have a particular reason for starting the retreat? Otherwise it turns into any other healthy activity. It is like going on a vegan diet retreat for a weekend only to go back to eating fast food on Monday. Extremes in either direction do no one any good, so be cautious of that. Also be aware that when you spend a long period in spiritual contemplation that returning to daily life can feel excessively intrusive and stressful. Give yourself some time, half a day or so, to ease back into your daily life with your family and work and whatever else. Otherwise you find yourself floating on a spiritual cloud and then you smack into the brick wall of daily life.
I like SN's idea about the walk after lunch meal, better than a nap right away after eating.
I think it will unfold beautifully for you, fwiw!
@misecmisc1
Formal Meditation causes a balancing out of the blood flow throughout the body which can conflict with the body's normal attempt to divert your blood to the task of aiding in the digestion of a meal.
This is the main reason, formal meditation in a retreat is usually not continued with immediately after a meal.
Most fill the 45 minutes to an hour following a meal with rest, or the meal clean up, or personal chores, or quiet Dharma study or anything reflective of the retreat that is not formal meditation.
Don't make too much of a deal about thinking about getting it "right" or "wrong".
A practice is like learning how to walk where the tumbles are just a part of that learning process. Just try to relax into your schedule and be attentive, rather than obsessive, of all that unfolds.
In India it's already day.
Let's cross fingers for @misecmisc1
@how your advice regarding after meal came to me slightly late, my bad luck as i already screwed it up for me today.
@DhammaDragon thanks for your support
please open your fingers 
, it is over and as expected i failed.
hi all,
the above plan got totally changed and nothing as per above plan worked out
.
well, i will tell the details about what happened today, so that some of you as always would help me to correct me wherever my approach went wrong, but it may be a lengthy post below, so if your time get wasted in reading the below post, then i am sorry for wasting your time. Below are the details from yesterday night till today evening:
yesterday night i was on my laptop till around 11pm. so as per @DhammaDragon advice i thought 6am today morning shall be early, so i set the alarm for 7am today morning - so automatically the above plan got delayed by 1 hour, but i thought i can work on it by adding 1 hour to everything. today morning around 6:20am i got up by myself and then i switched off the alarm for 7am (no i did not slept again at 6:20am
). so i got up by 6:20am and took tea and got myself done with freshing up and looked at mobile, which showed 7:15am, so i thought let me play the meditation timer mp3 files, which i downloaded from internet, i then found i missed to download 30 minutes timer, i downloaded 15 min, 45 min and 1 hour timer. then i understood nothing of my above plan is going to work, so i thought let me do the things as i want to do them. so i did the following activities today:
7:20am to 8:20am zazen sitting meditation - it was ok as somehow i was able to watch few breaths - whether of cautious breathing or natural breathing - this i cant say
, i was standing hoping the timer would sound and this stupid file did not make any sound, then i again checked the media player and found that it was on mute 
, i unmuted it and played the file and the starting bell sound came and i checked the duration of the file, which was 15 minutes)
8:25am to 8:40am standing meditation (i just standed - it was slightly funny - actually i thought the 15 min timer was a 5 min timer, so i thought of standing for 5 min, i played the file, but somehow it was on mute, so the starting bell did not ring, but i kept standing thinking may be there is only end timer sound in it, later when the end timer was not sounding which felt me to like more than 5 min, i thought let me stand for some more time, again it did not sound, i was frustrated, peeped into the laptop which was displaying the mp3 file is currently playing, so i thought may be it is of 15 min, again no sound, i again looked in the laptop and it showed the file has played completely, my face expression became
8:45am to 9:30am kinhin walking meditation as Taigu explains in treeleaf in chapter 22 with the main instruction of breathe in raise the foot and land it and breathe out relax and feel the body weight coming on this foot, so walk as per breathing rhythm - it was kind of interesting
9:30am to 10:15am zazen sitting meditation - this time it was something like more thoughts were coming - my back started aching
10:15 to 10:45 breakfast
10:45 to 11:45 again zazen sitting meditation - this time my back started aching even more becoming slightly unbearable, there were more thoughts and more getting entangled in thoughts
11:50am to 12:05pm kinhin walking meditation
12:15pm to 12:45pm kinhin walking meditation - my body started aching even in walking
12:45pm to 1:00pm standing meditation - my body started aching even in standing
1:00pm to 1:30pm tonglen meditation with eyes closed and sitted in a slightly casual manner
then i thought it is over for me and i should drop this whole retreat idea - then a thought came that at 2 i am thinking of having lunch, so will see post lunch to drop this retreat idea or not.
1:30 to 1:45 metta meditation by laying on the bed as my whole body was aching, so i kept my eyes open and was seeing the fan rotating in tubelight (the tubelight i kept on today from morning, so that when i might not sleep in zazen and i could keep watching the wall in the light of the tubelight of the room) - after it, i immediately got up from bed otherwise i would have slept on bed.
1:45 to 2:00 did some pranayama exercises of breathing and chanted AUM mantra by just repeating the word AUM AUM AUM ...
2:00 to 3:00 lunch
3:00 to 3:15 again chanted AUM mantra like above
3:15 to 4:15 again sat for zazen - it was like hell - the body was feeling heavy, i was trying to sit, too many thoughts and getting entangled in thoughts, most of the breathing which i was observing was cautious breathing
4:15 to 5:00 tea and then read Hsin Hsing Ming pdf file
5:00pm to 5:30pm kinhin walking meditation
5:45pm to 6:30pm zazen sitting meditation, which was the worst of all as my body was sweating, aching and i was thinking every 5 min, when this 45 min end timer will ring, it was terrible, i think i watched only a very few breaths and that too of cautious breathing and not natural breathing in this sitting. i was thinking the moment this 45 min timer ends, i will do metta meditation and end this thing, which i thought would be retreat like thing. so at 6:30pm, i did metta meditation quickly and came to bed and just layed over it for sometime and then thought of telling you all what happened today, so connected to internet and writing this post.
So summary is i failed and it showed to me that how coward i am that not even half a day i was able to keep the retreat experience. also i admire you all who have done 5 days or 10 days retreat - how much patience and tolerance you all have. also seems to me that i can just talk the talk about spirituality, but not walk the path of spirituality - kind of a hypocrite person i am.
well, what i did today was i think just watching the wall and watching very few breaths and that too only some of the time, but the more sad part is it was watching of cautious breathing usually instead of natural breathing and the remaining time i was getting entangled in thoughts and in the chattering of my mind.
anyways, whatever i did today is because of the suggestions and guidance given by you all (though i was not even able to implement them completely) and also of the url links, which you provided and also because of the content of those url links. thanks again to all of you for being such compassionate human beings and thanks to internet and thanks to all those people who have shared their contents on the url links.
metta to you and all sentient beings.
No, that's crap! You did not fail!
A hypocrite would never have even tried.
Imagining wondrous things about Buddhism and its practices is OK for hypocrites. It is not OK for students. Sometimes practice is yum-yum-yummy, sometimes it suck-suck-sucks. Either way, the intellectual and emotion assessments are secondary at best. If Buddhism amounted to nothing more than airy-fairy expectations and oooey-gooey goals, it would not have lasted into the present day.
It's hard work. OK ... so keep on doing it and save the BS assessments for some other time.
@misecmisc1
Relax..relax...relax. We are all only where we really are...trying to be mindful of this one nano moment before us. ......and that retreat is always just the next moment to practice within.
The schedule is just so that you do not have to keep masticating your mentality about what to do next.
It sounds like you might want to consider starting with really short meditation periods first.
See what a one minute period of meditation is like first.
When you can develop and establish some awareness of that one minute of meditation, then next time try for two minutes ....slowly working up to longer times according to the results of your last sitting..
When you become unable to remain aware of the meditative processes, shorten back the duration again to match what you are able to do.
One minute of meditation is infinitely better than any length of time spent in any meditative looking posture.
Standing meditation sounds like an invitation to body pain. Never done it myself unless circumstance required simply standing (like in a monastic service) which often just seemed like an exercise in accepting the uncomfortable.
...Actually, standing Meditation is extraordinarily effective and also very energetic, and causes no pain....
But it has to be done correctly.
Zham Zhong ('Standing like a tree') is a discipline closely associated with Qi Gong and I used to teach both.
In order to practice it well, you do need tuition, though.
And believe it or not, following the correct procedure, standing still - can make you perspire profusely!
@genkaku : thanks for your uplifting reply.
@how: thanks for your advice.
today i observed one thing that most of the times when i was thinking some thought or was entangled in thoughts and then realized that i should just watch breath, i found on most of the occasions my oval hand mudra tilted from the vertical slightly tilted towards belly position of the meeting of the thumbs - the thumbs usually moved to either more upward direction kind of pressing them or the thumbs tilted towards the wall. then i moved my hand position back to the vertical slightly tilted towards belly position and then tried to observe the breath. i think i read somewhere in the treeleaf website about this movement of hand mudra on thinking and i found it was happening with me today most of the times.
the only thing is since my natural breathing pattern is quite irregular and when i try to observe it, somehow it gets manipulated and it changes to cautious breathing - so is observing of cautious breathing allowed in zazen or we should observe only natural breathing? please suggest. thanks in advance.
I don't know that I've ever officially practiced standing meditation, lol. But I can stand for much much longer than I can sit comfortably. I can stand in mountain pose or even tree pose for a very long time, and sometimes I do that to bring myself inward. For certain circumstances it just is more effective than sitting meditation. I am an extremely kinesthetic person and while it probably seems backwards, a physically engaged practice makes it easier for me to calm my mind. Just like a stimulant calms the ADD mind. Same idea. When I write, I have a plastic fidget toy called a "tangle" that I twirl in my one hand. Otherwise I sit and hold the pen and nothing happens, lol. So perhaps having my body engaged more standing (or walking) than sitting is why that type of meditation is differently effective for me.
@misecmisc1 There is no failure. You think you failed because of your expectations. But you experienced something, which means there was no failure.
@misecmisc1: You did not fail, please, and don't call yourself names.
The idea was to try something new, with curiosity, an open mind and good intention, not to use your day retreat as an excuse to berate yourself.
You tried different meditations for size and that can only be good.
You know what works for you at the moment and what does not.
You can't compare with a real retreat, because the dynamic is different when you are with other people in a group.
My personal experience is that group energy somehow makes concentration easier, at least for me, and naturally, it's easier to stick to a schedule.
Perhaps you tried too much for a first time all at once.
But at least you tried.
Failure and success do not apply in meditation: you get more proficient the more you practise.
Congratulations for trying, misc!!
@misecmisc1
**so is observing of cautious breathing allowed in zazen or we should observe only natural breathing? please suggest. thanks in advance.
**
Soto Zazen is about observing the ebb and flow of all phenomena and so if your breathing happens to be "cautious" then that would be part of your meditative observation.
Remember that in order to not unduly activate ones mentality, the observation of the breathing should be more about the body's feel of the breath than ones thoughts about ones breath.
You might also ask yourself though if your irregular breathing is irregular because of some deliberate or habituated manipulation on your part
or
if what you call cautious breathing is really just natural breathing, free of that manipulation.
What do you think?
My main concern about what you call "cautious" breathing would be if that breathing was so shallow as to start restricting your oxygen uptake.
How would you describe your breathing when you are about to fall asleep or have not been thinking about it?
About your question on the hand mudra.
In soto Zen it depends a bit on your body type and sitting posture choice.
If because your torso is long or your arms are short, your hands can not comfortable rest together on your lap without pulling apart or causing upper arm/shoulder strain...then try putting something (like a small piece of clothing) on your lap to support them.
In other styles of Zen (Rinzai) where they utilize any tensions within a sitting practice, they would ignore the above advise.
The touching thumbs of your hand mudra in Soto Zazen tend to fall apart with a lack of attention or stupor/ show whitened nails when being pushed forcefully together because of some unaddressed level of tension/ but stay upright & lightly touching when body & mind are becoming one.
These are some of the things that the (disciplinarian) watches for when wandering around the Zendo wondering what to do with that stick.
One of the most important things I've learned from Buddhist practice is not to judge. That includes judging myself. Please be gentle with yourself if things don't go according to plan, or you can't get to the "right" mental state.
Well done stupid idiot person and anyone else present.
I am amazed how well you did. @how is right about the advice to relax, relax, relax.
I was impressed that you did standing meditation. The yogis and Qi Ong practitioners are right about finding tuition if possible. As you are in India a local yogi might be available? I have done standing tree asana style and Chi Kung method. In oki yoga we placed the hands in namaste/hapchang mudra.
Very impressed and inspired by your efforts. We stupid idiots need all the failed practice time we can muster. When is your next retreat?
hi all,
thanks for your replies.
well, i am trying one more experiment these days - well not exactly a type of experiment, but you may consider it as a weird stupid thinking that will go nowhere, but first some background, then i will tell what i am trying and then you can criticize me in whatever way you feel appropriate - all your critics are welcome.
so the background - i dont know if you remember few weeks or months back, i wrote a post in which i told you all that i have literally said to my wife and my daughter that i have freed them from my control and they can do whatever they want. few months back i have thought to myself that i have died and so i cannot do anything now. so just 2 or 3 weeks back, i said literally to my wife and my little daughter that i have died and you can consider that i am dead now, so you can do whatever you want and from now on, do not expect that i can do anything for you because since i am dead and a dead person cannot do anything, so i cannot do anything both of you now. may be i am a coward, who does not know how to handle family life and i am a kind of reserved person, who is not social, so i do not have any friends whom i talk to - but i go to office and the talk which i have with office colleagues is mostly work related. the only 4 persons in the whole world to whom i am connected to are my parents, my wife and my daughter. my parents are not dependent on me and i have freed my wife and my daughter from me - this does not mean that i am thinking of having divorce with my wife or i am thinking of leaving my job - just that the above thinking relaxes me that since i am dead now, so anyways i cannot do anything now, in a way it gives me a way to escape the burden of my responsibilities at least from thinking in this way. Obviously, just thinking this way has not changed anything for me - i still get angry frequently, i still lust over the hot girls who pass near by me, i still fear death etc. may be thinking that i am already dead - this might not be skillful even, but somehow i am trying to give up the fight to achieve anything in this world - may be i will be called a coward husband, an uncaring father, an irresponsible son etc, but i am somehow somewhat, though not completely, fed up with this social world - still i have desire for getting some onsite opportunities for work, getting appreciation in work still makes me feel good. May be i am just a coward, who is trying to just escape from his responsibilities or i am a weird person who do not know how to live and function in this external world.
Coming to the experiment- i am thinking of trying to live as per the starting lines of Hsin Hsin Ming, which says the following -
The Great Way is not difficult,
for those who have no preferences.
Let go of longing and aversion,
and it reveals itself.
Obviously i am not able to live as per it, but from very few days, i try to let things take their own course for some moments in a day, though not daily also - may be i am so stupid that i even do not know what the above lines of Hsin Hsin Ming are actually saying.
thanks for taking out time in reading my this post. any suggestions/critics please - all are welcome. thanks in advance.
If I were your wife, I would be hurt, offended and confused by your comments.
I would certainly not be very happy, and I would feel very much in limbo.
What do you mean, 'dead'?
Does this mean I can go out and find another man to help me, look after me, care for me and my daughter?
Does this mean I do not have to consult you about anything, buy you anything, feed you, clothe you, wash your things and make your life comfortable?
Does this mean we are no longer a couple?
I'm sorry @misecmisc1, I think you are being grossly unfair.
Either leave your wife and daughter to their own devices via the proper channels, or commit yourself to being the husband and father you should be, you promised to be, and actually still are.
You cannot live between two worlds like this: Either truly set your wife free, or be the husband she always thought she had.
In my eyes, your actions are ultimately selfish and self-serving.
You are doing this to really render your life more fee, detached and comfortable.
But tis leaves your wife in an awkward and insoluble dilemma.
No, your 'experiment' is highly flawed and irresponsible.
You cannot float between two states.
You're either 'in' or you're 'out'.
But you cannot subject your wife to such a situation, without accepting some repercussions you may find distinctly unwelcome and unexpected.
By saying you are 'dead' seems like a way for you to try and deal with the difficulties you are facing. I don't think you can force yourself to be 'dead', because the mind will still have anger and lust etc... But that's not your fault.
I think you need somebody to talk to mate. A lot of my help has come from listening to a guy called Mooji. He has many great YouTube videos of people like us who ask questions about problems. He points you to your true self and shows you to accept the situation you are in and see it clearly for what it is.
You are very much identifying with your mind saying you are weird or a coward. It's only true if you believe it, otherwise it's not.
What you need to do is identify what the problem is? Exactly what is the problem?
If you can find this, you can solve it.
We are a bunch of random people who have no idea what you are going through. Is there somebody you can talk to like family?
Like @federica said I probably wouldn't do this experiment, because it seems like your in a negative state of mind. You need to become happier or at least at peace. I think that's why you are trying this. If an experiment hurts others feelings would that be skillful ? There are other ways!
Here's my anxiety/depression battle pack.
1) clean your house - what is in your external world affects you internally
2) Go for a walk, in the sun. Don't think, just be mindful of scenery or breath.
3) exercise switches off the fight or flight response. This is great 2.
4) Practice some form of compassion, this will make you happy
Then reevaluate the situation. I'm sending metta to you mate.
Regards
Chris
@Earthninja's response was a lot more understanding and compassionate than mine.
I think he has made several really good points there, but (and this is my fault, entirely) I was observing your situation from an outside, feminine perspective.
That, in and of itself, was perhaps a selfish thing to do, but maybe to some good, because the two posts - Earthninja's and mine - may give you a broader outlook on what you might observe.
I am sorry you are going through this, but first of all, you have our (albeit long-distance) support, and secondly, you should seek professional help.
@Earthninja is quite right.
You have been over-thinking so many things and getting yourself tied up in knots - why?
Because you're not perfect, and have not perfected your practice.
Well, dearest - guess what?
None of us has!
We're all actually in the same boat, trying the same things and slipping up more times than I would care to count - well, certainly, I am!
You need to relax a bit, but definitely see if you can get some kind of support; maybe family is a good idea, but may not be the best idea...
If they have not a clue that you are feeling this way, someone patting you on the back, and telling you to pull yourself together, is by far the very worst advice you might receive....
Eee if you could have a word with a doctor.
because I think @Earthninja nailed it: You're going through a depressive episode, and you can't deal with this on your own.... and neither should you.
@misecmisc1
A Buddhist practice is about accepting what you really are, not just some mental concept.
The mind is only a library to co-elate and pull info from.
It was not designed to be the domicile you keep asking it to be.
Just about every post that I have ever written to you has been about this
but you seem unable to hear anything that challenges this mind obsession.
So
Start putting more focus on your own physicality to pull yourself away from this habituated mind dominance.
Forget Zazen for now & just stay on your awareness of your body's breathing.
Start actively volunteering to help others. Your wife & child would be a good place to start.
Ask for some "one on one" medical advise from credible professionals, instead of us internet ghosts who lack the physical contact with you to really see what is going on.
First thing into my head: Buddhism is not a cop-out -- a way of pretending that because you can cherry-pick the verbal teachings you are somehow relieved of responsibility.
One of my favorite stories came over the news wires a number of years ago. It was just a little four- or five-paragraph story about a Russian fellow who had collected quite a following based on his promotion of the teaching that all things are empty and without substance. And one day, he promised to prove his teaching to his followers by standing on a railroad track when a freight train passed through town.
And he was as good as his word. At the time the freight train approached, he stepped onto the tracks and waited.
The story did not detail the funeral arrangements.
True, a "dead" man cannot do much for the living, but in Buddhism, the dead will always care for those they have left behind. Wise teachings are not wise because they are written down or spoken by people so dumb that they stand on railroad tracks.
@misecmisc1 - hello
Hope you are feeling better about yourself... 
I think you want to "get it right" with meditation very badly... a very strong desire, or maybe I'm wrong.
"The great way is not difficult..."
So it says " it's not difficult" and you're thinking " yet I can't get it right" and you think some more till you believe that you're stupid cos you don't even know what it is saying.
I believe you're a very fortunate man.
1) You work in an office, not sweeping the public roads under the hot sun or worse jobs.
2) You have your parents, some were orphaned at a young age.
3) You're married, not a lonely desperate man.
4) You have a 4 year old daughter who should be talking and singing and asking many questions like any 4 year old kid. Some married couples are childless.
5) you can go on a retreat on a Saturday.... Some, work 7 days a week.
6) In your plan, there was breakfast, lunch, tea and dinner. Some could only afford one meal a day.
7) listening to music, TV, laptop... Luxuries... There are people who can't afford.
And the list goes on...
AND
8) you can just tell your wife off! Some husbands are bullied by their wives.
Please don't do that to your wife and daughter. You make them very sad.
You are unhappy,
you do that to them,
They are unhappy.
Are you any happier?
I believe the answer is no.
So you are a reserved person with no friends. How about here? newbuddhist.com? Can you feel that all who responded are genuinely concerned? Maybe you can consider us as friends, to begin with...
Your strong desire of wanting to get it right (meditation) is causing you confusion, frustration... to the point of calling yourself names. This is suffering.
The cause?
Desire.
Perhaps you can reduce your expectations... Or...don't focus on the end result whatever you think it maybe... Or.. Don't even try to figure out the tilt of the head, the hand mudra, the thumb, the eyes... Nothing.
If you value peace, perhaps you can try this...
Be kind to yourself, just breathe.
Breathe gently and slowly, and (just) know that you're breathing in... out...
Perhaps you can have some activities with your wife and daughter.
You can go jogging with them. I'm sure your daughter will be very elated., running side be side with you.
Get a ball, play throw and catch...
Play piggy back
Play hopping with one leg with your daughter and watch your wife smile...
Physical activities will make you happy.
Perhaps you can write down...
What are your needs, are they met?
And what are your wants, must you have them?
A thankful heart is a happy heart.
Sending you the energy of peace...
And to your wife and daughter, loving kindness...
Namaste
Zenni
hi all,
thanks for your replies.
@Zenni: thanks for your detailed reply.
you said : I believe you're a very fortunate man.
i too believe that i am very fortunate - touch wood - so this is one reason that i do not want to screw up my this human life. i don't know what type of birth i may get in next life, so want to escape this cycle of birth and death. actually i fear i may totally waste my this human life, even though i do not want, but still my conditioning habits of my mind are so strong and i think too much that too unskillfully, that even though i theoretically somewhat understand the things, but practically i am not able to do it.
you also said : So you are a reserved person with no friends. How about here? newbuddhist.com? Can you feel that all who responded are genuinely concerned? Maybe you can consider us as friends, to begin with...
i already consider all of you my friends and seniors, so i respect all of you and i thank you all for bearing me.
i think what @how has told me in so many ways and you also told above and yesterday i saw the below guided meditation by Joseph Goldstein:
https://ww.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVlB58sgqE
and i found the above insightful. replace ww with www in above url to view it.
so i will try to drop everything including meditation and just try to feel the physical sensation of breathing in and breathing out - i don't know whether i will be able to do it or not, but i will try to do it.
Will that include general mindfulness? Just hearing the sounds of stuff going on around you as they happen? I find it a very important part of my day - my life - now that I've learned it, it has come to mean a lot to me in terms of being able to calm myself and just relax into life itself.
sounds like a good idea. will try to include that. thanks.
hi all,
today again a thought came that tomorrow being saturday, i will be again alone at my rented flat, so will try for another retreat at home. well, retreat word might be an exaggeration, since for tomorrow i have no schedule in mind. also tomorrow i might be getting up late, but will try to sit tomorrow and since i have no plan of going out tomorrow, as i am a type of a lazy person, so will try to do both sitting and walking with may be lot of relaxing in between. obviously, i still do not know how to do meditation properly, but anyways will again give a try tomorrow. i will see how it goes tomorrow. any ideas/suggestions are welcome. thanks in advance.
@misecmisc1
Meditation is a work in progress.
It is just a potential window into each moments reality that our conditioning normally obscures.
A moment spent in judgement of this process is just another moment spent in that obscuration.
Starting tomorrow to have a dedicated retreat is great but consider the possibility that each moment leading up to this retreat has no less of a meditative potential than any moment within that retreat.
Consider utilizing whatever available seconds that present themselves before the start of your upcoming retreat as meditative warm up exercises for that retreat.
@how: thanks sir for your insightful reply. damn, i was thinking of sleeping tonight and you told about warm up exercises
- just kidding. but zen is really too hard. will try for it - sorry try for what - try to being aware of every moment - 
- what about try for one moment and then relaxing for 30 minutes to ease off the tiring effort and then try for one moment and again relaxing for 30 minutes 
- may be i should become serious now, i am taking too much advantage of the luxury of not going to a zen monastry and thus saving myself from getting beaten by the stick of the zen master in every minute of the whole day.
I am on the same type of exaggeration. I am house sitting for my sister and have:
There are two Buddha statues available here ... yeah knew giving Buddhas was selfish karmically beneficial
This is my view.
What fun!