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@silver said:
I consider it immature not to mention ludicrous to put the onus on someone who for whatever reasons isn't here any more.
I am not sure what you mean... Are you saying that I shouldn't be angry at the person anymore because they are gone. Or that one should not judge them as being immoral? I would like to clarify before I comment on something you were not even saying.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@KarikoPuppies said:
suicide in any form is the violation of the karmic rule and must end up paying for it one way or another
No it's not. The Buddha did give circumstances in which it might be understandable. Sure there are kammic consequences but it may not be a violation in the sense of meriting a negative consequence.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Grayman said:
I am not sure what you mean... Are you saying that I shouldn't be angry at the person anymore because they are gone. Or that one should not judge them as being immoral? I would like to clarify before I comment on something you were not even saying.
Yes, I think @silver means there's no point blaming or putting pressure for responsibility on someone who's now dead.
1
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Grayman said:
I am not sure what you mean... Are you saying that I shouldn't be angry at the person anymore because they are gone. Or that one should not judge them as being immoral? I would like to clarify before I comment on something you were not even saying.
Yeah, it's more along the lines of not judging them as immoral - and especially as if they've done something against those left behind/done something wrong. I'd consider being angry just a part of the grieving process, but I'm sure lots of people just dig in their heels and choose to not get over it - whichever emotion is strongest keeps them from doing a more complete healing over their loss.
@silver said:
Yeah, it's more along the lines of not judging them as immoral - and especially as if they've done something against those left behind/done something wrong. I'd consider being angry just a part of the grieving process, but I'm sure lots of people just dig in their heels and choose to not get over it - whichever emotion is strongest keeps them from doing a more complete healing over their loss.
It is selfish as selfish is defined and that is just the way it is. The person has to decide to live with that idea themselves if they themselves feel being selfish is immoral (if they fail). I think selfishness is an unhealthy way to live and generally the people who commit suicide without any major medical issues are people who are either 'ignorant' of all the people who care about them and so feel alone and that no one would care if they are gone or they are too absorbed in themselves to see the world around them.
Unselfish people are often too absorbed in others to consider their own suffering to the same extent and are less likely to commit suicide.
Maybe I am getting away from what you were originally indicating when I first commented you ...
From silver:
"Lots of people are extra angry over suicides because they've blocked any new information they might pick up on and wisdom from opening up about the whole topic of suicide"
What is the lack of information that I have in being angry when my mother tried to commit suicide multiple times or my step father or my wife's mother or my sister? What about my only friend in 8th grade and the other friend I worked with who killed another of my friends before taking his own life. These are all broken, damaged and sick(diseased) people. What could you possibly say that would erase all of that and convince me that I shouldn't view suicide as a sick and destructive behavior and a disease? Science? The body was designed to live. Pain and fear were a way to avoid damage to yourself so that you might live but these things can turn on a person and the person can then suffer the disease of their mind attacking itself and its body. Much like in this article with this woman who looked rather healthy and happy but committed suicide out of fear. Avoidance of a future that may have never occurred...
Is it wrong to hold judgment? Isn't that a judgment in itself. Is considering them "immature" a judgment? Where is the understanding of their situation? What do you know of the destructive and dark elements of this disease and the damaging effects it has on multiple people compounding upon time and people with the children suffering the worst from their parents disease as they try to understand this world?
As someone only too keen to judge myself, I know the condititions under which I would commit suicide.
Basically more pain either physical, mental or emotional than I can bear. As I have a very low threshold for pain, a train not arriving on time could make me temporarily suicidal ...
I don't think suicide is selfish, I think it's a hard and sad situation. A friend of mine killed himself,
None of his family called him selfish, they were just sad they couldn't do everything they could to stop him. It came out of the blue which is hard.
I'd hate to think how much someone is suffering to take their own life. That's the sad part. The immense suffering.
But atleast they aren't suffering anymore.
Metta
Those who are left behind just don't see their pain any more. I am not sure it means end of the suffering.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
to @Earthninja - I, too, feel suicide is not a selfish act; I think it's sometimes a chosen path and sometimes an act of self-preservation (even though that sounds counter-whatever).
to @Grayman - I am sorry for your loss - my deepest condolences. One of the first things the coroner asked me over the phone (my son, Sean, 23 at the time (3-3-87 to 2-14-10 RIP) was found by me in his bed on Valentine's Day of 2010, unresponsive) was if I thought it might be that he took his own life (no note) and I said that the thought did cross my mind and I feel that that was the case.
I read your last post late last night and I thought I'd sleep on it and respond this morning. As it works out, I don't have to figure out what to say, as I found this contribution on another forum that I frequent and I felt that it was apropos:
"(...) So it is in life: we should have our eyes wide open to see where we walk. We should study life, and seek to know why we say a thing, and why we act as we do. We have failed perhaps hitherto because we have not been wide awake. We have fallen, and felt sorry, and have forgotten all about it, and perhaps may have fallen again. This is because we have not studied life. A study of life is the greatest of all religions, and there is no greater and more interesting study. Those who have mastered all grades of activity, they above all experience life in all its aspects. They are like swimmers in the sea who float on the water of life and do not sink.
If we only knew how much the study of life can tell us! One could go into the British Museum and read every book in the building, and yet not obtain satisfaction. It is not study, it is not research, it is not inquiry which gives this knowledge; it is actually going through the experiences of life, witnessing life in its different aspects and in its different phases or spheres; that is what reveals the ideal of life. ... Look not on life as a person would watch a play on the stage. Rather look upon it as a student who is learning at college.
It is not a passing show; it is not a place of amusement in which to fool our life away. It is a place for study, in which every sorrow, every heartbreak brings a precious lesson. It is a place in which to learn by one's own suffering, by the study of the suffering of others; to learn from the people who have been kind to us as well as from the people who have been unkind. It is a place in which all experiences, be they disappointments, struggles, and pains, or joys, pleasures, and comforts, contribute to the understanding of what life is, and the realization what it is. Then do we awake to the religion of nature, which is the only religion. And the more we understand it, the greater our life becomes, and the more of a blessing will our life be for others.
H. Inayat Han
from "Bowl of Saki", free daily email via subscription at wahiduddin.net/saki/saki_new.php"
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@mmo said:
Those who are left behind just don't see their pain any more. I am not sure it means end of the suffering.
I think it's a given that those who are contemplating suicide or have committed suicide, are in unbearable pain - even though it's self-inflicted (and some don't realize that), so to me it's the same as if they were hospitalized (or need to be hospitalized or helped) and we feel sorry for ourselves and exercise compassion only on ourselves...grieving is deeply painful, but if we are mindful etc., it doesn't have to last forever. Nothing and nobody lasts forever.
I support assisted suicide, but my partner (a physician) believes that when depression is involved, it's simply not possible to make an informed decision. Still...depression IS an illness and CAN become unmanageable. I wish there was a way to ensure that healthy family members have a "vote". At least, the clinics and centers that facilitate the act need to make completely sure that family members have been notified well before the suicide is supposed to occur.
I don't have any feelings about how Buddhism would or does treat this subject.
I saw a lot of suicides whilst working in the police,
I remember trying to resuscitate a beautiful 27 year old girl who had hung herself outside of her exes house.
Her heart was still beating while I was giving her CPR.
By the time ambulance came she was dead. She had also taken 50 pills.
Myself and my partner managed to talk a guy off a cliff from jumping but I suspect this guy was just attention seeking. Never the less as soon as he walked away from the cliff he was spear tackled by our swat group and taken to hospital. One semi happy outcome although I don't know what help he got.
I'm sorry for all your losses, it seems suicide is so widespread .
I hope all beings be free of suffering. Hopefully humanity can get their shit together. I can only start here.
"Suicide is not selfish." This is factually wrong. It is by definition selfish. You may feel it is justified and that is fine. Everyone has to reach their moral understanding in their own way. You may feel that you can understand it. This is fine and you are lucky/unlucky to have the experiences in life that enable that understanding. You may accept it. I think this is fine and it is necessary for healing.
But none of this changes the fact that suicide is an action that is selfish. It is an act that is for the benefit of oneself to satisfy ones own needs at the expense of everyone else. Shoving this under the rug and denying it to not seem cruel and preserve feelings allows people to not consider the full effects of what they are doing. How is this not wrong compassion? Isn't it important that they have full awareness?
@silver I apologize for putting you on the spot and I having to bring up a painful subject if that is what I did. It was not my intention.
I am sorry about your son.
That quote is interesting but I am likely missing something because I am not seeing an 'aha!' moment that allows me to know what your point is and I am uncertain where I am supposed to apply it to my understanding of this topic.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
To @Grayman: I expected that the long quote might not resonate right away with you (and others), but the last paragraph was more focused on what I would've said if I'd thought of it first. But before I make my comments on that, I just want to say up front that I think that you - at a vulnerable age and time in your life - experienced it as 'selfish' because it totally pulled the rug out from under you. I have another cyber-friend (god rest HIS soul) who had sort of similar circumstances happen to him while he was young - lost an awful lot of family in his life and left to his own devices with scarcely an assist from anyone. I don't think he was 40 when I heard he passed away last year (had complications of diabetes). I can't believe anyone who commits suicide is truly selfish...that is my experience and understanding of it. To me, it is beyond that and I'm sorry but I have no further explanation for it, and I can only say that I've 'seen' it.
here's the last paragraph: It is a place for study, in which every sorrow, every heartbreak brings a precious lesson. It is a place in which to learn by one's own suffering, by the study of the suffering of others; to learn from the people who have been kind to us as well as from the people who have been unkind. It is a place in which all experiences, be they disappointments, struggles, and pains, or joys, pleasures, and comforts, contribute to the understanding of what life is, and the realization what it is. Then do we awake to the religion of nature, which is the only religion. And the more we understand it, the greater our life becomes, and the more of a blessing will our life be for others.
Study is the operative word here for me. Mindfulness - has helped me immensely to deal with the loss of my son. It has done more for me in an incredibly short time and I'm always finding a reason to suggest reading Master TNH's biography of the Buddha, Old Path White Clouds. It touched my heart and soul, being an incredibly enchanting, engaging and condensed story of his life (and yet more complete) and his teachings. I don't have the wherewithal to read up on all of the various precepts and so on of the Buddha but this book has been the real touchstone for me, anyway.
@Grayman said:
"Suicide is not selfish." This is factually wrong. It is by definition selfish. You may feel it is justified and that is fine. Everyone has to reach their moral understanding in their own way. You may feel that you can understand it. This is fine and you are lucky/unlucky to have the experiences in life that enable that understanding. You may accept it. I think this is fine and it is necessary for healing.
But none of this changes the fact that suicide is an action that is selfish. It is an act that is for the benefit of oneself to satisfy ones own needs at the expense of everyone else. Shoving this under the rug and denying it to not seem cruel and preserve feelings allows people to not consider the full effects of what they are doing. How is this not wrong compassion? Isn't it important that they have full awareness?
Compassion is equal loving kindness free from judgement.
You can call people who kill themselves selfish. But I don't agree with you. It's of no benefit to oneself. It's the termination of ones self.
We are all selfish creatures by nature. All of us.
Even love of your partner or pet is selfish. So it's just life.
@Grayman said:> But none of this changes the fact that suicide is an action that is selfish. It is an act that is for the benefit of oneself to satisfy ones own needs at the expense of everyone else.
But if somebody was really suffering, would you insist they carry on just for your benefit?
I generally would insist that a parent stick around for their child as they do very much need them. Also would ask a wife or husband to consider their spouse. A parent is most certainly responsible for that child and whatever right the parent has to their own life it does not remove them from their obligation.
I do not set such expectations on others about myself as I do not often consider my needs as being that important but I do get worked up when I see people show a lack of disregard or thought into the well being of those around them particularily children.
@Grayman said:
I do not set such expectations on others about myself as I do not often consider my needs as being that important but I do get worked up when I see people show a lack of disregard or thought into the well being of those around them particularily children.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet the daughter's life has prepared her for her mother's final lesson.
@Grayman said:> I do not set such expectations on others about myself as I do not often consider my needs as being that important but I do get worked up when I see people show a lack of disregard or thought into the well being of those around them particularly children.
In this case I believe the woman had a grown-up daughter. It also sounds like something she had been thinking about for a very long time.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2015
Yes. While her family "respected" her decision (her daughter is also in nursing, I think) she found it an extremely difficult decision to cope with...
Here's the last paragraph of the linked article:
The former nurse said her children and partner had struggled with her decision.
“It is not his [John’s] choice at all and my kids are backing me, although it is not their choice,” she said before the journey to Switzerland. “My daughter is a nurse and she said, ‘Intellectually, I know where you are coming from but emotionally I am finding it really hard,’ and I know she is.”
I really don't know if I could put my own daughters through that.....
Ending one's life can be selfish, especially if not done out of compassion for others but to cease one's own suffering. But it seems just as selfish to expect others not to end their lives for our benefit, because separation from the loved is suffering for us. What's the middle way here? I don't know; but John 8:7 comes to mind: "Let the one among you who is without sin (or selfishness) be the first to throw a stone."
@federica said:
I was about to make the same point, actually, Grayman .
Let's haul it back to the original question then, guys.....
Hi Federica. I may have been off point and apologize if I was, but I think it may be that I wasn't clear either.
From the original post, 'Surely Buddhism, doesn't encourage harming oneself or others, but she doesn't want her old age to burden her children...'
The behavior of the mother, from my perspective from a single side of an fractalized polygon, is selfish. While any of us are capable of a moment of profound selfishness, this just doesn't strike me as an isolated event. The sleeping have sleep patterns. I would think that there has been a pattern of selfishness from this woman that the family has learned to adapt to. So...well, here's a way of describing it:
My mother died a few months ago. For those of you who have read my recent thread, 'I need to fix something...' you'll get a sense of the abuse I suffered at her hands as a child. I broke away. My sister never did. My sister has suffered with the loss of my mother...but she suffered every day with my mother being alive as well. Now finally, she has a chance to heal. Will she? Who can say; but she has a better chance now than perhaps ever before.
My point was that the attitude and belief system that brought this woman to the conclusion that she should kill herself and her family's feelings be damned may have provided her family with the key to heal. So what do I think about assisted suicide in this case? That it may inadvertently turn out to be the kindest thing this woman has ever done and may relieve suffering. Very Buddhist. Reminds me of a Jakarta tale in which the fellow threw himself off a cliff to feed the lion and cubs below.
Who am I to second guess?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Some have been suggesting that suicide is motivated entirely by selfishness (relieving just themselves from pain) and I can't even imagine someone having only that single solitary thought/reason because I'm sure many thoughts and feelings went through their minds before they did it.
And @yagr - you've fleshed out some very cogent points there. As much as I dearly loved my mom, when she died, looking back, I realize NOW that I was freed up from what evidently was too close of a bond and for the first time, got the full benefits of being my own person / growing up and becoming autonomous and independent and taking responsibility for my decisions (not that they become better decisions necessarily, though).
I just don't know how should I take it from buddhist point of view.
"What should the doctor's response have been?", "What would I do?", etc etc etc, ... are irrelevant in terms of Buddhism. She suffered, she died, she was born again. On and on it goes. Samsara!
Take it as an example of someone experiencing dukkha, and let it deepen your understanding of the 4NT.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Why would a healthy person need help committing suicide?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@ourself said:
Why would a healthy person need help committing suicide?
I think because the self-inflicted suicide methods are generally more painful, and sometimes messy.
Apparently it's actually quite hard to kill yourself, the great majority of attempts are unsuccessful.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
@SpinyNorman said:
Apparently it's actually quite hard to kill yourself, the great majority of attempts are unsuccessful.
If I was on a plane preparing to sky dive and I changed my mind I don't think I would want anyone to give me a push.
That's how I feel about helping someone without a life ending illness end their life.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@SpinyNorman said:
Apparently it's actually quite hard to kill yourself, the great majority of attempts are unsuccessful.
Actually, it's really not hard at all. I think if anyone really wants to end their life there are several options. Sadly, these options cause great inconvenience ad distress to others who have to (at times, quite literally) pick up the pieces....
Most attempts
are either discovered and salvaged, or are in fact 'half-hearted' "Cries for help".
No, most attempts are serious but people choose ineffective methods like drug overdose, so only around 5% of suicide attempts are actually successful. But many of these people try again and are eventually successful. Sadly failed suicide attempts can result in major damage to bodily organs, compounding the persons problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt
This probably explains why some people seek a painless and reliable method under medical supervision, as in the OP case.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
to @Grayman - I am finding myself backpedaling here this morning, about suicide being selfish act - but with the thought that each person has to live with themselves and too many find that their circumstances they've come to believe that they can't really live with the hand that life has dealt.
to @SpinyNorman - who said "This probably explains why some people seek a painless and reliable method under medical supervision, as in the OP case," a big yes on that.
And, I don't think that people talking about suicide can cause someone to think maybe they should...in fact, perhaps an improved general education and other / further higher education could help to create a more 'acceptable' life for many.
Comments
suicide in any form is the violation of the karmic rule and must end up paying for it one way or another
I am not sure what you mean... Are you saying that I shouldn't be angry at the person anymore because they are gone. Or that one should not judge them as being immoral? I would like to clarify before I comment on something you were not even saying.
No it's not. The Buddha did give circumstances in which it might be understandable. Sure there are kammic consequences but it may not be a violation in the sense of meriting a negative consequence.
Yes, I think @silver means there's no point blaming or putting pressure for responsibility on someone who's now dead.
Yeah, it's more along the lines of not judging them as immoral - and especially as if they've done something against those left behind/done something wrong. I'd consider being angry just a part of the grieving process, but I'm sure lots of people just dig in their heels and choose to not get over it - whichever emotion is strongest keeps them from doing a more complete healing over their loss.
It is selfish as selfish is defined and that is just the way it is. The person has to decide to live with that idea themselves if they themselves feel being selfish is immoral (if they fail). I think selfishness is an unhealthy way to live and generally the people who commit suicide without any major medical issues are people who are either 'ignorant' of all the people who care about them and so feel alone and that no one would care if they are gone or they are too absorbed in themselves to see the world around them.
Unselfish people are often too absorbed in others to consider their own suffering to the same extent and are less likely to commit suicide.
Maybe I am getting away from what you were originally indicating when I first commented you ...
From silver:
"Lots of people are extra angry over suicides because they've blocked any new information they might pick up on and wisdom from opening up about the whole topic of suicide"
What is the lack of information that I have in being angry when my mother tried to commit suicide multiple times or my step father or my wife's mother or my sister? What about my only friend in 8th grade and the other friend I worked with who killed another of my friends before taking his own life. These are all broken, damaged and sick(diseased) people. What could you possibly say that would erase all of that and convince me that I shouldn't view suicide as a sick and destructive behavior and a disease? Science? The body was designed to live. Pain and fear were a way to avoid damage to yourself so that you might live but these things can turn on a person and the person can then suffer the disease of their mind attacking itself and its body. Much like in this article with this woman who looked rather healthy and happy but committed suicide out of fear. Avoidance of a future that may have never occurred...
Is it wrong to hold judgment? Isn't that a judgment in itself. Is considering them "immature" a judgment? Where is the understanding of their situation? What do you know of the destructive and dark elements of this disease and the damaging effects it has on multiple people compounding upon time and people with the children suffering the worst from their parents disease as they try to understand this world?
@Grayman
I'm sorry for your loss.
I don't think suicide is selfish, though. The tragedy about many suicides is that they're all too often due to some misconception.
As someone only too keen to judge myself, I know the condititions under which I would commit suicide.
Basically more pain either physical, mental or emotional than I can bear. As I have a very low threshold for pain, a train not arriving on time could make me temporarily suicidal ...
Here is something from the Sufi Suicide Squad
http://www.academia.edu/7929575/The_Death_of_Death_A_Study_of_Self-Annihilation_and_Suicide_in_the_Light_of_Sufi_Thought_and_the_Early_Writings_of_Baháulláh
Perhaps this is more accessible ...
http://www.chishti.ru/sufi_death.htm
From a Buddhist perspective I would councel non-suicide as the preferred option ... especially if your train station is running late ...
I don't think suicide is selfish, I think it's a hard and sad situation. A friend of mine killed himself,
None of his family called him selfish, they were just sad they couldn't do everything they could to stop him. It came out of the blue which is hard.
I'd hate to think how much someone is suffering to take their own life. That's the sad part. The immense suffering.
But atleast they aren't suffering anymore.
Metta
Those who are left behind just don't see their pain any more. I am not sure it means end of the suffering.
to @Earthninja - I, too, feel suicide is not a selfish act; I think it's sometimes a chosen path and sometimes an act of self-preservation (even though that sounds counter-whatever).
to @Grayman - I am sorry for your loss - my deepest condolences. One of the first things the coroner asked me over the phone (my son, Sean, 23 at the time (3-3-87 to 2-14-10 RIP) was found by me in his bed on Valentine's Day of 2010, unresponsive) was if I thought it might be that he took his own life (no note) and I said that the thought did cross my mind and I feel that that was the case.
I read your last post late last night and I thought I'd sleep on it and respond this morning. As it works out, I don't have to figure out what to say, as I found this contribution on another forum that I frequent and I felt that it was apropos:
"(...) So it is in life: we should have our eyes wide open to see where we walk. We should study life, and seek to know why we say a thing, and why we act as we do. We have failed perhaps hitherto because we have not been wide awake. We have fallen, and felt sorry, and have forgotten all about it, and perhaps may have fallen again. This is because we have not studied life. A study of life is the greatest of all religions, and there is no greater and more interesting study. Those who have mastered all grades of activity, they above all experience life in all its aspects. They are like swimmers in the sea who float on the water of life and do not sink.
If we only knew how much the study of life can tell us! One could go into the British Museum and read every book in the building, and yet not obtain satisfaction. It is not study, it is not research, it is not inquiry which gives this knowledge; it is actually going through the experiences of life, witnessing life in its different aspects and in its different phases or spheres; that is what reveals the ideal of life. ... Look not on life as a person would watch a play on the stage. Rather look upon it as a student who is learning at college.
It is not a passing show; it is not a place of amusement in which to fool our life away. It is a place for study, in which every sorrow, every heartbreak brings a precious lesson. It is a place in which to learn by one's own suffering, by the study of the suffering of others; to learn from the people who have been kind to us as well as from the people who have been unkind. It is a place in which all experiences, be they disappointments, struggles, and pains, or joys, pleasures, and comforts, contribute to the understanding of what life is, and the realization what it is. Then do we awake to the religion of nature, which is the only religion. And the more we understand it, the greater our life becomes, and the more of a blessing will our life be for others.
H. Inayat Han
from "Bowl of Saki", free daily email via subscription at wahiduddin.net/saki/saki_new.php"
I think it's a given that those who are contemplating suicide or have committed suicide, are in unbearable pain - even though it's self-inflicted (and some don't realize that), so to me it's the same as if they were hospitalized (or need to be hospitalized or helped) and we feel sorry for ourselves and exercise compassion only on ourselves...grieving is deeply painful, but if we are mindful etc., it doesn't have to last forever. Nothing and nobody lasts forever.
What if you have no family left? Then what?
I saw a lot of suicides whilst working in the police,
I remember trying to resuscitate a beautiful 27 year old girl who had hung herself outside of her exes house.
Her heart was still beating while I was giving her CPR.
By the time ambulance came she was dead. She had also taken 50 pills.
Myself and my partner managed to talk a guy off a cliff from jumping but I suspect this guy was just attention seeking. Never the less as soon as he walked away from the cliff he was spear tackled by our swat group and taken to hospital. One semi happy outcome
although I don't know what help he got.
I'm sorry for all your losses, it seems suicide is so widespread .
I hope all beings be free of suffering. Hopefully humanity can get their shit together. I can only start here.
"Suicide is not selfish." This is factually wrong. It is by definition selfish. You may feel it is justified and that is fine. Everyone has to reach their moral understanding in their own way. You may feel that you can understand it. This is fine and you are lucky/unlucky to have the experiences in life that enable that understanding. You may accept it. I think this is fine and it is necessary for healing.
But none of this changes the fact that suicide is an action that is selfish. It is an act that is for the benefit of oneself to satisfy ones own needs at the expense of everyone else. Shoving this under the rug and denying it to not seem cruel and preserve feelings allows people to not consider the full effects of what they are doing. How is this not wrong compassion? Isn't it important that they have full awareness?
@silver I apologize for putting you on the spot and I having to bring up a painful subject if that is what I did. It was not my intention.
I am sorry about your son.
That quote is interesting but I am likely missing something because I am not seeing an 'aha!' moment that allows me to know what your point is and I am uncertain where I am supposed to apply it to my understanding of this topic.
To @Grayman: I expected that the long quote might not resonate right away with you (and others), but the last paragraph was more focused on what I would've said if I'd thought of it first. But before I make my comments on that, I just want to say up front that I think that you - at a vulnerable age and time in your life - experienced it as 'selfish' because it totally pulled the rug out from under you. I have another cyber-friend (god rest HIS soul) who had sort of similar circumstances happen to him while he was young - lost an awful lot of family in his life and left to his own devices with scarcely an assist from anyone. I don't think he was 40 when I heard he passed away last year (had complications of diabetes). I can't believe anyone who commits suicide is truly selfish...that is my experience and understanding of it. To me, it is beyond that and I'm sorry but I have no further explanation for it, and I can only say that I've 'seen' it.
here's the last paragraph: It is a place for study, in which every sorrow, every heartbreak brings a precious lesson. It is a place in which to learn by one's own suffering, by the study of the suffering of others; to learn from the people who have been kind to us as well as from the people who have been unkind. It is a place in which all experiences, be they disappointments, struggles, and pains, or joys, pleasures, and comforts, contribute to the understanding of what life is, and the realization what it is. Then do we awake to the religion of nature, which is the only religion. And the more we understand it, the greater our life becomes, and the more of a blessing will our life be for others.
Study is the operative word here for me. Mindfulness - has helped me immensely to deal with the loss of my son. It has done more for me in an incredibly short time and I'm always finding a reason to suggest reading Master TNH's biography of the Buddha, Old Path White Clouds. It touched my heart and soul, being an incredibly enchanting, engaging and condensed story of his life (and yet more complete) and his teachings. I don't have the wherewithal to read up on all of the various precepts and so on of the Buddha but this book has been the real touchstone for me, anyway.
Compassion is equal loving kindness free from judgement.
You can call people who kill themselves selfish. But I don't agree with you. It's of no benefit to oneself. It's the termination of ones self.
We are all selfish creatures by nature. All of us.
Even love of your partner or pet is selfish. So it's just life.
But if somebody was really suffering, would you insist they carry on just for your benefit?
I generally would insist that a parent stick around for their child as they do very much need them. Also would ask a wife or husband to consider their spouse. A parent is most certainly responsible for that child and whatever right the parent has to their own life it does not remove them from their obligation.
I do not set such expectations on others about myself as I do not often consider my needs as being that important but I do get worked up when I see people show a lack of disregard or thought into the well being of those around them particularily children.
Perhaps the answer is too personal for public policy.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet the daughter's life has prepared her for her mother's final lesson.
The conversion has deviated a little from discussion the lady in the OP specifically.
I was about to make the same point, actually, @Grayman .
Let's haul it back to the original question then, guys.....
Thanks....
In this case I believe the woman had a grown-up daughter. It also sounds like something she had been thinking about for a very long time.
Yes. While her family "respected" her decision (her daughter is also in nursing, I think) she found it an extremely difficult decision to cope with...
Here's the last paragraph of the linked article:
I really don't know if I could put my own daughters through that.....
Ending one's life can be selfish, especially if not done out of compassion for others but to cease one's own suffering. But it seems just as selfish to expect others not to end their lives for our benefit, because separation from the loved is suffering for us. What's the middle way here? I don't know; but John 8:7 comes to mind: "Let the one among you who is without sin (or selfishness) be the first to throw a stone."
Hi Federica. I may have been off point and apologize if I was, but I think it may be that I wasn't clear either.
From the original post, 'Surely Buddhism, doesn't encourage harming oneself or others, but she doesn't want her old age to burden her children...'
The behavior of the mother, from my perspective from a single side of an fractalized polygon, is selfish. While any of us are capable of a moment of profound selfishness, this just doesn't strike me as an isolated event. The sleeping have sleep patterns. I would think that there has been a pattern of selfishness from this woman that the family has learned to adapt to. So...well, here's a way of describing it:
My mother died a few months ago. For those of you who have read my recent thread, 'I need to fix something...' you'll get a sense of the abuse I suffered at her hands as a child. I broke away. My sister never did. My sister has suffered with the loss of my mother...but she suffered every day with my mother being alive as well. Now finally, she has a chance to heal. Will she? Who can say; but she has a better chance now than perhaps ever before.
My point was that the attitude and belief system that brought this woman to the conclusion that she should kill herself and her family's feelings be damned may have provided her family with the key to heal. So what do I think about assisted suicide in this case? That it may inadvertently turn out to be the kindest thing this woman has ever done and may relieve suffering. Very Buddhist. Reminds me of a Jakarta tale in which the fellow threw himself off a cliff to feed the lion and cubs below.
Who am I to second guess?
Some have been suggesting that suicide is motivated entirely by selfishness (relieving just themselves from pain) and I can't even imagine someone having only that single solitary thought/reason because I'm sure many thoughts and feelings went through their minds before they did it.
And @yagr - you've fleshed out some very cogent points there. As much as I dearly loved my mom, when she died, looking back, I realize NOW that I was freed up from what evidently was too close of a bond and for the first time, got the full benefits of being my own person / growing up and becoming autonomous and independent and taking responsibility for my decisions (not that they become better decisions necessarily, though).
"What should the doctor's response have been?", "What would I do?", etc etc etc, ... are irrelevant in terms of Buddhism. She suffered, she died, she was born again. On and on it goes. Samsara!
Take it as an example of someone experiencing dukkha, and let it deepen your understanding of the 4NT.
Why would a healthy person need help committing suicide?
I think because the self-inflicted suicide methods are generally more painful, and sometimes messy.
Apparently it's actually quite hard to kill yourself, the great majority of attempts are unsuccessful.
If I was on a plane preparing to sky dive and I changed my mind I don't think I would want anyone to give me a push.
That's how I feel about helping someone without a life ending illness end their life.
Actually, it's really not hard at all. I think if anyone really wants to end their life there are several options. Sadly, these options cause great inconvenience ad distress to others who have to (at times, quite literally) pick up the pieces....
Most attempts
are either discovered and salvaged, or are in fact 'half-hearted' "Cries for help".
No, most attempts are serious but people choose ineffective methods like drug overdose, so only around 5% of suicide attempts are actually successful. But many of these people try again and are eventually successful. Sadly failed suicide attempts can result in major damage to bodily organs, compounding the persons problems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt
This probably explains why some people seek a painless and reliable method under medical supervision, as in the OP case.
to @Grayman - I am finding myself backpedaling here this morning, about suicide being selfish act - but with the thought that each person has to live with themselves and too many find that their circumstances they've come to believe that they can't really live with the hand that life has dealt.
to @SpinyNorman - who said "This probably explains why some people seek a painless and reliable method under medical supervision, as in the OP case," a big yes on that.
And, I don't think that people talking about suicide can cause someone to think maybe they should...in fact, perhaps an improved general education and other / further higher education could help to create a more 'acceptable' life for many.