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Assisted suicide?
mmo
Veteran
in Philosophy
Hi dhamma friends,
I found an article about a lady who travelled to a swiss suicide clinic to have an assisted suicide. I just don't know how should I take it from buddhist point of view. Surely, buddhism doesn't encourage harming oneself and others, but she doesnt want her old age causes burden to her children and she felt that she had lived her life. That sounds like a valid acceptable point to me. Pre-conditioning from life tells me that suicide is not a right action. But what if someone had terminal disease and curing it will cost the loved ones dearly?
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Comments
I find her rationale bizarre, and to be honest, had I been the medic in Switzerland, I would have refused.
in my book, this is an abuse of the system, and should not have been allowed.
If she had really wanted to end her own life, she should have taken care of it herself. She was a nurse; I'm sure she could have researched plenty of ways to do it.
I dreamt the foolproof method a while ago. I woke up in a cold, panic-induced sweat that my brain had even had the capacity to think that way.
The system exists for those whose lives have, through illness, sickness or irreversible, incurable and fatal conditions, become intolerable, and insupportable. They simply do not have the strength, will-power or impetus to carry on living.
Life has become everything but, and it is a person's right to do whatever they feel they want to do with their own life and its termination, under those circumstances.
I may disagree with their decision, but as I am not harming them, and it would harm them to refuse their request, I accept their decision and support it.
But this woman, in my book, had NO RIGHT to die simply because she wanted to, and to expect others to conduct her termination.
My own view, and this is from someone who spent years working on a suicide prevention hotline, is a simple one:
People have a right to end their own life. It is their personal decision and none of my business. People do not have the right to demand someone help them do it or share in the experience.
I just think it must be tough for remaining families, her partner and children.
Well, the article ends by making comment regarding the daughter's opinion and feelings on the matter.
I cannot imagine what it must feel like to be able to think that your parent planned to kill themselves - and did so, even though they knew it would devastate you....
Any death is a sad and shocking thing to have to cope with.
But I would hate to be in her daughter's shoes.
A similar case is detailed here.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/22/the-death-treatment
I support assisted suicide, but my partner (a physician) believes that when depression is involved, it's simply not possible to make an informed decision. Still...depression IS an illness and CAN become unmanageable. I wish there was a way to ensure that healthy family members have a "vote". At least, the clinics and centers that facilitate the act need to make completely sure that family members have been notified well before the suicide is supposed to occur.
I don't have any feelings about how Buddhism would or does treat this subject.
@mmo
A Buddhist point of view on suicide?
There is the Buddhism which is comprised of all who call themselves Buddhist
and
there is the Buddhism that reflects the Buddha's path towards suffering's cessation.
I delineate them here because the interests of each are not always the same.
Whereas one form of Buddhism is often comfortable with establishing policies as a way of securing the continuity of a definable movement within a very fluid existence,
the other form of Buddhism is often less concerned with policy and more concerned with the assessment of each situation's unique expression as to whether it better contributes to suffering's cause or it's cessation.
While there are many Buddhist's with strong point's of view, that in itself does not make any view.....Buddhist!
.... * head hit the desk * I can't even. I just went/still going through this. A family member was depressed/ill...but the aftermath is still a bitch to deal with. I support right to die....but....nevermind. My family is a wreck bec of this situation. Was it before? Yes. But it brought alot of 'ignored' ugly stuff to the top....and he's dead...but the crap is still left.
Love you Uncle Richard! ( Uncle Dick
) I'm doing the best I know how.... Thank you for all the good times down at the land...You were a Dad to me, when I didn't have one. Love you and miss you....
Sorry guys...it's still a senstive touch for me....
I think we SHOULD have assisted suicide systems/clinics.
There should be strict protocols to follow and multiple therapies/consultations with psychiatrists and if all else fails the person has a right to end their life in a "safe", humane and dignified way.
Everyone has to die, in our society we pretend it doesn't happen. We mask death anyway we can.
If someone is suffering so much that they want to kill themselves, I wouldn't stop them. Who am I to know just how bad they are suffering.
Imagine getting physically tortured, everyday for 3 years? Mental torture can be just as bad if not worse than physical pain.
If I was terminally Ill and I was going to die and progressively my condition was getting worse and I was beginning to suffer I would like a better way to go than to be taken by disease.
I would like to have a death party, drink champagne maybe do some morphine or something. Be joyous around my friends and family and at the end. Take a bow and go to sleep. Why not?
Better than lying in a morbid hospital room with tubes coming out all my body keeping me alive and suffering for a few more months. Na not for me.
We've been conditioned to see death a certain way in iur society. Like it has to be avoided at all costs. As if this matters . Our lives are a blink of existence. I contemplate death often, it helps me to let go.
Metta to all beings and may they be free from suffering
I think it was her decision to make and I don't see anything wrong with it.
I'm not disputing her decision, if that's what she wanted.
I'm disputing the whole system she 'abused' by choosing to go abroad and use a system that in my opinion, should be reserved for those who desperately need it.
If you're in perfect health, then do it yourself.
By all means go abroad if it makes you feel better, but don't involve a methodology "reserved" for those who honestly have no other option.
So assisted suicide is just OK for "deserving" cases?
@how, I would say it would be wise to access on a case by case basis.
@federica, i think dying with help from clinic or self medication doesn't make any difference.
@Earthninja, older generation in my family always said, you progress more in your practice by a trip to a funeral than multiple visits to monasteries.
@SpinyNorman, I just find selflessness from her children and her partner remarkable. Surely she had heard their views.
If I had a relative or friend who wanted to end their life and they weren't clinically depressed, then I would respect their wishes. It would be a case of putting their needs first I think.
To me it's trickier. Often people who think they're desperate to die are actually desperate to live.
Plus, the body shuts down by itself when It can't live any more, so the fact that one is alive is already a reason to keep living.
Or they are desperate to end their huge suffering. If living is endless suffering they wouldn't be desperate to live. They want to live without the pain.
A person is more than just their body.
@Cinorjer -- Right on the money, from where I sit.
I do not buy into the argument that those affected by such a death or those religio-phiosophically opposed should therefore have the right to put their oar in the water.
And as to "caring," the best wish I can imagine for someone who is dying or wishes to die is that "I wish you what you wish."
Is it?
Passing judgment on the judgment of one who commits suicide is wrong thinking. Yes, as loved-ones we're exceedingly sad about their choice, but so many things are not up to us and how we think they should pan out.
I think it's ok in this case to discuss whether we consider some to be misguided... I can't for the life of me agree with the suicide of the woman who chose to die in perfect health. It just seems like a bizarre waste of a life. Goodness knows how much more she could have enjoyed.
Sure it was her decision....
I guess, if we look at the other end of the spectrum, it equates with my opinion of abortion....
I just said that to explain my own stance. Let's not go off-topic, though....
I think the precept of to refrain from taking life can be a gift to the world. It is how makes the world better. Whatever decision a person make, it doesn't stays within his/her own interest, rather it affects everybody around, and no moment is the same.
I grew up in east asia where life is hard, and I saw many ways to end ones life. But I never saw one that can restore life back. Funny thing - is that even in the poorest place where I grew with, I never encountered or heard somebody that is healthy and have the capacity to live the life at its fullest wanted to end it. It is so sad.
Just my two cents.
I'd say that Buddhism ultimately has a pragmatic approach. On the one hand, it certainly doesn't encourage self-harm or the harming of others. The first precept itself is rooted in the spirit of harmlessness (ahimsa). At the same time, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
and
And while these particular rules apply explicitly to monks, I think it's reasonable to assume that the idea underlying them all applies to lay followers, as well. So while I think that Buddhists should refrain from such actions as much as possible, especially since the weight of such kamma is so heavy, that doesn't mean there aren't extenuating circumstances.
The precept are guidelines for our protection; but it's always up to the individual to weigh all the options and their potential consequences before performing any action; and in the end, sometimes our decisions depend more on what we feel than on what we're told is the 'right' or 'moral' thing to do. Moreover, I disagree with the commentarial tradition of Theravada in that I believe (as do most Mahayanists) that it's possible a person can assist another in dying, or end their own life, out of compassion or other 'skillful' mental states.
Things like incurable illnesses that cause great amounts of pain can even be unbearable for arahants, let alone the average individual, and it's absurd to expect that everyone should live up to some sort of rigid and idealized standard of morality that's placed upon human existence or exhibit superhuman endurance for the sake of piety. Furthermore, it's my opinion that individuals should have the right to do what they want with their own bodies, regardless of other people's moral values.
As such, I support a person's right to end their own life when they're deemed to be sober and of sound mind, and I applaud places that allow physician-assisted suicide. In my mind, it's a personal choice that's the individual's alone to make, and denying a person that choice is equivalent to torture. (When it comes to animals and invalids, however, I think it gets a bit more complicated since we effectively have to kill them in order to end their suffering and they have little choice in the matter.)
A couple of years ago, I had an estranged friend pass away after spending 2 weeks in a coma. He drank and drugged himself to death (an apparent long and arduous type of suicide that no one was aware of because he cut himself off from everyone), was brought back to life through CPR and he was rushed to a hospital where he never regained clinical consciousness, nor did his vital signs ever improve. Many visited this wayward friend in the hospital while in the coma. He had no family left as his mother died a couple years before and he had no siblings. Myself and another friend did some meta for him during those weeks by his bed side. I felt his presence in the room... he didn't seem like he was "already gone" to me, but there was absolutely nothing that the doctors could do for him. After some debate, his deceased mother's friend (who he considered an aunt) was given the power to decide his fate. No one disagreed with her decision to remove him from life support and let him pass on, as we all understood the implications of his medical reports.
The point of this anecdote is this: he made the ultimate choice, but through people's love for him, his choice was delayed an extra two weeks. I'd like to think that the well wishers and sad hearts that came to see him during those two weeks, on some level of consciousness, were able to communicate something to him. This communication may have helped him before he passed... may have given him a small hint of peace... it may have taught him that he was loved... it may have given him a bit of understanding on a wave-length he otherwise wouldn't have been receptive to. So, I guess what I am trying to say is... even though you may have given up on yourself, others may not have given up on you yet. And that way of caring for people is what may make a better humanity. We're all in this together, whether you see it or not. Through life and death... this is OUR life, not just YOURS.
I am sorry about your friend. It must have been something he gone through that made him choose this way. On one hand, I still think that he could have seen the love from his friends even if they are not his immediate family. On the other hand, things at certain stage in life are too overwhelming that it is easy to be blind to other beautiful things.
I've never found threads dealing with such "hot button" issues beneficial in any way...If God forbid, one has a personal experience with, say, assisted suicide, all the speculation and philosophizing done by the "uninitiated" is unlikely to carry any weight.
No, we don't own other people in any sense.
Depends I guess.
Look, I'm not trying to judge, all I'm saying is that if life fights so hard to keep living, then I'd think deeply about whether suicide is really worth it.
Nevertheless if someone does decide to do it, that's 100 percent their choice and none of my business.
Though that involves the taking of somebody else's life.
I was thinking more of the rationale and circumstances rather than the process....
I am not trying to bring any weight to anyone/anything. Or I don't claim to make this thread sound like a hot button either.
I know that this discussion won't alleviate the pain inflicted on people by suicides of any form.
I am still a work in progress and I too am prone to suffering and thoughts. I don't think I can confidently say that I won't be dealing with what these people go through in the future, as what is going to happen next is unknown. I feel that it is relevant for me to ponder about what they are experiencing.
P.S. I would just not contribute if I don't find it relevant or have much to say.
That's how I see it. I also think there is a large cultural component to our attitudes about suicide, no doubt influenced by Christian values in the west.
Didn't mean to put you on the spot, @mmo .
To explain where I'm coming from: when I was younger, I would spend a lot of time debating controversial issues. For me it was a way to not deal with what actually was as well as to feel heard and relevant. Since then I found it counterproductive as it distracted me from what was important and often subtracted from social harmony in my environment.
My experience may or may not be relevant to you. I guess I was a little harsh too. If so, my apologies and have a wonderful day
My first wife passed away due to a very aggressive form of breast cancer. We thought they had it beat but it came back 5 years later and started spreading everywhere.
She had said that when it got to her brain, she was going to end it. I told her that was her right but that I wanted her to really think about it. My aunt developed cancer and lived the last bit of her life crying and afraid. I told her I wished she could have tried to squeeze a few smiles instead.
A week or so later, it did get into her brain and she was given a matter of weeks. At this point we had been together for years but only got engaged a little while before it came back.
It happened that our wedding day was scheduled to be farther down the road than she could make and so we got married in my sisters back yard 3 days after we heard the news and she lasted 7 weeks.
She was in pain a lot of the time but at the end she told me she was glad she decided to end it on that note rather than jumping off a bridge.
I'm not sure what my point is now.
It doesn't feel right that I should pass judgement on this...
Nobody's asked you to.
I found an article about a lady who travelled to a swiss suicide clinic to have an assisted suicide. I just don't know how should I take it from buddhist point of view.
-Well then, I suppose I lack the skill required to comment on this without passing judgement...
Aaaaaaah.
THAT'S different.....
And sadly, what I said may have appeared judgemental.
I just can't get my head round someone perfectly healthy wanting to end their life for no reason other than not wanting to see their next birthday....
Maybe the curiosity was driving her mad.
I often wonder what it will be like but it's not like it's going anywhere.
Clearly she had her reasons. Apparently one reason was her anxiety that she would suffer a stroke and lose her independence.
hmmmm.... of course we don't own other people. what a gross misunderstanding of what i wrote. We SHARE our lives with other people. there is no way of denying that. Why else would we be sad when other people die?
agreed... he couldn't see any hope or any light. others had to see it for him. this shared life....
you don't need assisted suicide laws if you make guns easily accessible. > @federica said:
Maybe she had seen a lot of horrible things when she worked at the nursing home. She seems to use that is the basis or image of what she thinks getting old eventually amounts too.
Because we get attached to them and mourn our own loss?
Everyone leaves imprints, which makes them connected to others.
Can you explain that a bit more?
@silver,
People and all things aren't on their own. How they perceive and live does impact on others, because they coexist and interact with families, communities, work colleagues and etc. Matters like suicide may be up to one's decision if that person believes no reason to live. But, for someone else, that person life is worthwhile. For this lady's situation, it could have been about finding a middle ground between the two.
I just think it is really about caring for the space, connection or something which relate someone suicidal and griefing family members. For me when someone dies or aren't around me anymore, I still feel that space which is left behind by their presence in the past. E.g. I have met people from different countries. I come from Far East country, where there is very close knit culture. Knowing and spending time with them changes me in certain way, like foods, habits, way of seeing things.
to @mmo - I understand what you're saying, but I think those who are left behind because a loved one committed suicide grieve longer because of the puzzling feeling and nature of them choosing to take their own life, but it's because they resist examining the whole suicide phenomenon mixed in with the pain of the loss itself. Lots of people are extra angry over suicides because they've blocked any new information they might pick up on and wisdom from opening up about the whole topic of suicide. They've made up their minds...or they've allowed 'the bible' or whatever, to make up their minds for them by clinging to the rule set out by their religion or previous beliefs and thoughts.
There is a large amount of either ignorance or selfishness that comes with suicide when they don't consider all the people that are affected particularly if those are people that depend on them, particularly if children depend on them... Growing up with a number of people in my life attempting or committing suicide and one even committing suicide after 'relieving the world' of my friend as he saw it, I can tell you that my anger has nothing to do with bible thumping and there is no amount of information that can change the reality I have seen in the destruction of this disease.
BUT there is a large difference between the suicide I speak of and an early release from an inevitable and painful death.
Still my experiences do not allow me the courage to legalize and give trust to a system of assisted suicide.
I agree with the last bit, but how can you judge a person who commits suicide like that? That they're ignorant or selfish? I don't get that at all. Whether we are children or adults, we have need of each other, and when others turn their backs, it is a terror that adults know and not just young ones. Do you even consider how they feel? It isn't a disease. That reality is no different from any other portion of reality. I can well imagine that the anger they felt (along with all the other emotions) is the same as yours.
@silver
From: mmo "People and all things aren't on their own. How they perceive and live does impact on others, because they coexist and interact with families, communities, work colleagues and etc."
They are either ignorant of how strongly their life/absence/death impacts others or they know and are selfishly ignoring that fact. I can explain further but I am not sure how you can think it is not selfish and so I cannot elaborate on the disconnect between our understandings.
I think if one chooses suicide, no matter if they use assisted - it's an issue with them far beyond the notion of selfish, and it may be more curiosity and feeling there's nothing for them here, so it's more pragmatic of a choice, I suppose, but I wouldn't know about the latter. I consider it immature not to mention ludicrous to put the onus on someone who for whatever reasons isn't here any more.