Light versus Darkness
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
I was thinking that western society does seem to have a lot to do with the archetype of the battle between light and darkness, or good and evil. You see it reflected in religion in heaven vs hell, in popular culture in movies like Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings, in many drama’s as good vs evil, in a lot of children’s entertainment. But it seems to me to be based on an incorrect understanding of dualism.
There was a beautiful story about this told by Thich Nhat Hanh, which went like this. The creator during the creation called for light to come, and the light replied, I have to wait for my brother darkness. The creator replied, but darkness is already here, all around. In that case, said light, I am there also.
Darkness is just where light is not, the reality is very different from the idea of two inimical factions who fight eachother continuously, which is just something that is in our minds, probably instilled from an early age.
Comments
the duel state can be tiring.my only solution,is be passive in the spirit --breath--of equimity.acceptance and letting go.perhaps the art of peace.trying this technique --aware--mental note "fighting",accept their dukkha. and let go, not my fight,pursue peace and love.
yin and yang duality, follow the soft embrace,it doesnt have to be a duel state. let go of hate the cause of duel,accept love the cause of embrace.i will work on that too.
Its been over half my life now that I've been ingesting and incorporating an eastern, more holistic, yin/yang type of thinking and regularly find myself at odds intellectually with the western light vs dark way of thinking.
I look at it as light and dark tempering and empowering each other in their interdependent dance. Each with strengths and weaknesses that both compliment and oppose the other. At times one may hold more sway, but that seems to act to "motivate" the other to increase in opposition, back and forth.
I tend to think that action is an upward spiral rather than spinning in place or downward, but in the longer run its hard to say.
When something cannot truly exist without something else, sure enough they are complimentary aspects of the same thing/event/process and not really opposites at all.
With light and dark it seems a bit trickier though. The only real opposite of light is no light and that is the definition of dark. The only way I see around that seeming contradiction is to posit that the potential for light already exists in even the darkest dark.
I am probably missing something though as it feels like I'm overlooking something I should find obvious. Bad migraine day.
I think it’s interesting that we immediately seem to reference Taoism and the yin-yang symbol. For me, like for you, that’s not a symbol of conflict, but one of mutual co-existence.
But I think the Western mind is a little hung up on that kind of conflict thinking. It’s a question of people being interested in war, struggle and conflict, these things have left deep traces in the communal mind. Even World War 2 in retrospect has become a great Axis versus Allies confrontation, again two sides facing off while in fact the reality was much more about disparate conflicts in different areas of the world. And again some people insist on casting it as the forces of light versus the forces of darkness.
I just don’t think this form of dualism and conflict thinking is helpful, and for us in western culture especially it makes sense to beware of it. It’s a simplified way of thinking about conflict, which many seem to see as intuitive, but not a truthful one
The problem is, the terms Light and Dark, with all the relevant, associated and respective symbolisms, has been with us far longer than we've been alive. It is in fact, integral to many aspects and viewpoints we as a human race, have subscribed to since the Bible first appeared. Longer, even. Ever since the Winter and Summer Solstices were celebrated, I would say.
The imagery of Darkness as 'Bad' and Lightness as 'Good' is also evident in works of Fiction, and is inescapable. I mean, look at the Lone Ranger, for goodness' sake. A Cowboy? All in White?
His horse was White ("Hi Ho Silver!")
And the 'bad guys' always wore black...
Dark and Light, Wrong and Right have always been part of our language. It's ingrained and indelible.
Even the Buddha is En-LIGHT-ened.
Try as we might, (save for a few exceptions) we can't get away from it.
It’s there in many forms, agreed, but I don’t think it is helpful. It is providing a kind of ingrained signposting which is not accurate, and which I believe we should make an effort to get away from.
It won't work.
Look at what the Nazis did to the Buddhist/Hindu symbol of the Swastika.
If such an impressionable thing can be so totally ingrained in people's minds within living memory, how much more difficult is it going to be for us to put the Light/Dark imagery out of our minds?
Why, by the way?
Language dictates reality and in Taoism Great Yin overcomes Great Yang.
In other words God is the Darkness and Light is merely the action or swirling of the Cosmos into Being.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos
To put it another way: Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness. That is why the chicken crossed the road. Yab-Yum
The Truth does not have an opposite, only the reflection sphere does ...
the dual state can lead to nonduel.
im reminded if we have to duel,make it within.siddartha said,in terms of battle,wrestleing,with dukkha of cognitive states,it is best to congure self,than to physically battle others then our victory is more sweeter that no angel or demond can steal. so the more we build methods of peace within we coexist in duality.
some advise ,what we learn from dharma,less label,more be.dont separate but unite.seee diferrences yet cognitive outlook sameness.
Well, because of the inherent signposting... the whole theme carries with it a bunch of unhelpful assumptions, such as:
And so on...
None of the above may be skilful responses to the situation. In the end, each intelligent being has his or her own set of complex motivations, and animals have a simpler set of instinctive motivations. In terms of nations, each has its own character and people in power, and the motivations of the people in power colour the nation’s responses.
For example, a United States under Trump is a very different country in terms of international relations than the same country under Obama.
I'm sorry... is this a 'Race' thing?
Light v dark, good versus evil, it is the archetypal battle. I don’t see it as helpful or unhelpful for it to be portrayed as a battle or struggle. I don’t understand the issue here. Where light is present, darkness is not, one reigns supreme over the other, they cannot coexist. Thus where there is a battle, the ultimate victory is to achieve what light does over darkness or what darkness doesn’t over light.
Light & Darkness unite in the Twilight zone ...and for a brief moment in time they become one ...such a beautiful sight to behold....
...they compliment each other
(Complement....)
@kerome .... just a side note (not to start another discussion, by all means).... TNH I will always consider one of my teachers, but just as that story reads...the creator? Errr...that’s where the trying to mix ideologies for the sake of a general market gets my goat every time. If one starts with calling for dark or light...then any questions would have to be referred to the caller/creator.... * shrugs *
I think of Twin Peaks tv series and the like when I think of dark and light. But my ordinary life it's more about awkwardness or confidence I guess? Or selfish and generous.
I’m not confirming or denying that this is the case as far as the OP or anything @Kerome was expanding on,,,but I will add...
When my children started grade school, they had a color system for how well the children behaved during class. White was the best, then red, green, blue and black was the worst behaved. My husband went to the school and explained to the teacher that it could have a negative impact on young children and associating it with their skin color. The white and black were then removed from the scale.
Not just mutual co-existence but two extremes of the same cycle. Any extreme is not very useful. Too much light and we can be blinded but not enough and we can't see.
I think this sort of dualism has its uses but much more so when recognized as a tool we use or are used by.
Yeah, thats exactly the kind of thing i’m thinking of. Good that they corrected it.
Children wouldn't associate the colour of their skin like that, these racist associations are all taught by society, by parents, by teachers.
Black and white are naturally at the end of a colour chart as the absence of colour or the presence of colour (RGB).
It does irritate me somewhat that you can't call a spade a spade because it might upset someone that thinks you're giving it some hidden meaning, based on their own racist associations and not yours.
Exactly so. The derogatory use of language is not as positive as reclaiming the Real which does not have a shade of grey but encompasses all opposition without sides. In other words it is Open or Great Yin.
In Alchemy and Sufism we talk about expansion and contraction as polarities but it is a dance or spiral ...
The Buddhist duality is Wisdom and Compassion. A totally Wise occurrence may not appear to heed the cries of the compassionate and equally a totally Compassionate action may seem the height of folly ...
http://www.khandro.net/animal_tiger.htm
So it IS a race thing...?
I agree. I have a suspicion that the whole matter has become extremely politically correct.
we tread on eggshells, constantly.
Incidentally, you can't get white hen's eggs in the UK any more, they're ALL brown. Every single one. ranging from a pale cinnamon colour to an appealing russet. The hue is the same, the variations endless.
I would never refer to my eggs as simply, 'black'.
And it has been gastronomically proven that the health and nutrition benefits of white and brown eggs is EXACTLY the same. No difference at all. To all and every intent and purpose, they're completely identical internally, it's just the shells are different.
There's a lesson in there somewhere....
@federica and @lee82 . I hear what you guys are saying. I just feel like If you have dealt with any kind of racism yourself, whether overt or subtle, you would maybe understand the experience or the need for questioning the status quo and examining the underlying meaning of things.
Ok, I will admit, I haven't DIRECTLY, PERSONALLY dealt with any racism to do with me, specifically.
But I have had to deal with overt and covert sexism, which is utterly and totally unacceptable, and is a prejudice which spans every continent, society, country, group or origins.
There isn't a single country or community, or group of any description, which regardless of colour, race, or religious or ethnic background, doesn't have some form of discrimination against women, be it social, or economical.
In that, they're all united.
And sadly, that includes Buddhism.
That said, if I hear, recognise or am witness to any kind of negative -ism, whatever it be, I never shut up and consider it 'none of my business'. Ever.
^^ That’s right...it’s just like that. Others (men.. ahem), will say,” you women need to stop man bashing, that’s not what we mean”, and we both know the subtle sexism we see....so you get it to a certain degree....anyway, the egg thing intrigues me. It’s the opposite here...brown eggs are hard to find. Usually food trends are just that. Brown eggs are seen as more “rustic”, so since natural foods, farm markets and such are on fashion right now, that might be it.
@federica
Yes, it was a pure marketing exercise. The colour brown - and all associated shades - is seen as homely, rustic, natural... harking back to the old days when everything was just that.
You only have to look at sepia photographs to be transported to a bygone era. The colour of those photographs harks back to a time before technology and mechanisation ruled the world...Life was good back then... And it's no accident the tint is used to promote a hearty, healthy, natural and wholesome lifestyle.
It's good for you. It's produced with your health, happiness and satisfaction in mind...
It's really quite astonishing just how susceptible we are to being influenced by advertising...
We really are extremely odd and contrary.
Which is why I’ve always made it a point to resist the effects of advertising. I still sometimes get suckered by it, like for years buying cane sugar only to find out they actually process white sugar and add molasses as a colouring in making it.
Yes, cane sugar is white. Raw sugar is golden yellow. It pays to be scrupulous when scrutinising label contents.
I tend to buy from a supermarket, where products have to be above reproach, due to the sheer financial clout of the supermarket purchasing power. Woe betide any supplier who gives false information... I have seen one or two products pulled due to 'labelling anomalies' which usually means that it doesn't do "exactly what it says on the tin"....
I don't think TNH is catering to "the market". Plenty of people incorporate Buddhism into their daily lives - including theists. I think those of us who have been following Buddhism can tolerate one or two stories like that without it threatening our path.
Just my take on the issue.
Isn't this also a kind of prejudice?
I'm not saying that to poke you in the chest, @Vastmind or to accuse you or hold you to task. Hopefully you'll know me better than that.
I'm actually trying to point out that we all have some kind of block about something, which makes us attract one thing, yet repel another...
TNH is extremely well known for marrying Buddhist teachings with those of Christ; He even wrote a book on it, and Thomas Merton is as famous as any Christian could be, for wanting to be the best Buddhist he could be. So it's certainly not 'for the sake of a general market' to conflate two creeds and find and expose the similarities...
I think it's a question of trying to look beyond the constraints we have, after all, imposed on ourselves and striving to accept that different pathways can and do converge.
I do get how some things can grate on our nerves, set our teeth on edge and just rub us up the wrong way. (Heck, I hold my hand up to that, first and foremost!) But surely, in those cases, it's up to us to examine our own reactions, rather than to shun, disdain or deride the outer influence. After all, it's "in here" that it all counts, and how we react to "out there" is our yardstick to measure...
I have experienced DIRECT racism in the form of being told that because I'm Jewish (from birth) that I'm "white passing" because no Jew is white - and this I have heard most vehemently from other Jews.
Uh, no. I am white. I'm white as f%%king snow. I have two shades in summer - albino and burnt. I'm North Western European with some Israeli, Turkish and Italian DNA (very weird). When you go right into it (as I have over the past 15 years), I am predominantly German, Finnish and Russian/Norwegian - which has made for some interesting familial discoveries
But the point is, it shouldn't MATTER. Skin colour has no direct correlation with Jewishness. And it's no one else's frigging business either. The same goes for African Americans, Africans or anyone else's racial background. Skin colour ≠ racial legitimacy.
Having said that, IMO we (as a society in general) have to be careful not to incite tensions by being over the top in using colour in day to day activities.
I agree. Plenty incorporate it.
I wasn’t speaking for everyone and their tolerance level...I was just speaking for me.
@federica ...um prejudice? As in pre judging...creating an opinion without knowing facts or reason? No. I attended many services at Magnolia Grove and have witnessed how he intermingles the kingdom of god and Buddhism. Not my cup of tea, personally. Does it work for others? I’m sure it does. Again, I was just expressing my opinion that I’ve always had that the two don’t mix well. Is that a judgment call on my end? Yeah, of course.
No poking feels here..... ♥️.
.
Yeah I got that
Thanks @Vastmind . I re-emphasise, my comment was not intended to be accusatory. But it's interesting the way this discussion has taken a turn...
I would say that the matter has so many layers and levels, nuances and views, experiences and directions - it's clearly not as black and white a subject as one might think!
Yeah, that’s what happens usually when someone says “ I think about that differently.”..or “well, here’s my experience.” ...It can lead to understanding...it’s a good thing.
So true...so many layers and levels and such.
Intended pun? Really?
Yes, pun intentional! In any situation, it helps to find the humour and enjoy it!
There is only one tone acceptable.
It is a monotone or silence.
However if we conflate good as sound or colour, symbol with cymbal or Almighty Cod as a good fish what happens?
Noise, unease, mindless jawing.
... and now back to the allowed aloud ...
a daoist duality statement, pair of opposites
the loudest voice can be quiet.
when quiet loud and clear.
yin to my yang.
she sees me small,but great.
little man overpower the greet man,
not by force,but by yield.
that was fun....
the receptive or yielding is a form of passive or humble acceptance
that dances and hence transforms the direction
very often confronting hardens the opposition
but the yielding darkness/emptiness is not dependent on light
but is ever present by absence ...
swirling
"A Feather can deflect a Dragon's Might".
Fhu Hsi.
(If only King's Landing* had known....!)
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swirling,in the milky way.it's awesome how ddao,works her science-magic.
some modern day dao zen phrase,
from the movie what dreams may come,sometimes when you win you lose.sometimes when you lose,you win.the theame of acceptance of letting go.
great catch phraise,kill them with kindness.turn your "opponent" from hard to soft.