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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Baldurs Gate 3 is more like a giant puzzle, in the more difficult encounters it is like a tactical game, with thought required before you make your moves, rather than engaging in the automated aspects of real-time play. I’ve watched a bit more of the Let’s Play and it’s become clear to me that you don’t really need to play optimally in order to enjoy the game, the barest minimum of min-maxing is enough to keep the party viable.
It does seem that in multiplayer it is more difficult because you need to arrange tactics across the players and you can’t just control what the whole party is going to do.
I've been enjoying it so far. The story is quite engaging and the gameplay reflects modern capabilities. Like being a wizard with a spell that makes it rain/create water but finding uses for it outside of combat. It rewards exploration and creative thinking but doesn't hinder a straightforward approach either. I'm playing a sassy Bard which adds a lot of depth to conversations and you can randomly bust out your lute or harp and play music for people. Though I haven't completed it all yet. @Kotishka I'm not sure what kind of specs your PC has but for a modern game, the requirements are fairly minimal.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2023
The thing is, the whole game world is crafted to give you very important things to do, to make you significant and heroic. There are many quests where others put their burdens on you, giving you things to ‘fix’ or situations to ‘solve’, drawing on our will to make the world “just so”. It makes you more into a doer.
And what you end up doing is just depopulating the map, killing monsters, goblins and undead left right and centre until almost nothing moves anymore except a few NPCs. It’s like the players role is to make the world safe for the citizens of Baldurs Gate.
My personal inclination is to let things be as they are… why go and upset the natural balances, why be a front for human supremacy and prejudice, why kill all these things? There is no space for contemplation and meditation in that game world. I don’t think the Buddha would fight.
The problem is, the world of D&D contains lots of things that our world does not… the soulless hungering of undeath, brain devouring mind flayers that prey on humans, devils from other planes of existence, evil gods and their chosen. To protect “the people” from these perils we are encouraged to take action, and buy into the concept of the heroic adventure, slaying all manner of wickedness.
But really because of the way experience and levels work in the game it doesn’t really allow you to avoid combat while completing quests, turning it into a kind of stealth game. In theory you could but you would not get very far I don’t think.
From another perspective, the game places you at the center of an internal and personal struggle. The opening scene is of you kidnapped and trapped while a mind-flayer embeds a parasite into your mind. The following journey is about finding a way to remove it before it consumes your mind. Or learning how to grow it and harness the mind powers.
Of course being a heroic-type game based on D&D, this leads you on an epic adventure which involves many other characters and their stories. One that allows you to decide whether to grow your mind parasite and powers through the guise of being helpful solutions to your roadblocks, or to ignore the inklings/offerings of power and just be a person on the journey for answers and hopefully parasite-removal.
While I'd agree the game world has no real place for contemplation and meditation, and depopulation appears unavoidable in full, I found the writing and dialogue insightful at times. Coming across a conversation or choice or revelation in story that triggers a familiarity with my own life and workings of my own mind.
So I tend to observe the story as one that doesn't exactly take place in a world but in a mind through the familiarity of a world. And while yes it is a game that serves to build worldly attachments rather than cultivate dispassion, I've found occasional moments have caused me to reflect on things like that.
And I also agree, the Buddha would not fight. The Buddha would not play this game nor suggest others play it. It builds attachment and does not lead to dispassion.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Very true @FleaMarket some of the stories are sensitive and well-written. There are stories of people meeting their gods, composing music, travelling through the hells, having romances. But you have to take the right companion characters in your adventuring party to experience the story at its best, and you can only take three, the rest stay at your camp. Swapping them out as you do certain dungeons is a good idea, and also not always signalled by the game.
But however large and complex and wonderful the experience is, I feel a lot of it is manipulating the player. It plays on the goodness of your heart to get you to solve the problems, mostly through combat and killing monsters. It shows you romancing your companions if you choose to make you more connected to them.
The quests place you the player at the heart of the story, you make the choices which evolve the adventure, or not. So the game imposes on you a lot of “either this, or that” choices through dialogue.
I’m kind of disappointed in the way they implemented experience and levels though, giving experience points for kills and rewarding violence and combat. So you have to engage in combat to advance in the game. In the vast majority of cases combat is unavoidable as well, you’re just attacked as soon as you make contact.
I’ve only been watching Let’s Play videos so far, but I find it challenging to my peace of mind because playing this game feels like taking action. It feels like being there, in the story.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited September 2023
Most of the attention economy is based around this idea of keeping you engaged with another thing to do or notification to respond to. Streaming services auto start the next episode, I'd even argue pretty harmless forums like this engage this part of the brain, there's always another thread to respond to or idea to express.
Of course these aren't all on the same level, economic incentives have shaped these things to be more and more addictive, designed by some of the best engineers and psychologists in the world to keep you engaged.
I've abandoned large scale games that tend to keep me hooked for long periods of time. I don't like the time sink, I'd like to do other things with my time. I still spend a lot of time watching TV shows, movies and fiction books. They don't tend to keep me sucked in in the same way. I'm able to stand up after a show and do things like do the dishes or organize my workshop/storage area for a while. My life doesn't feel so disheveled like it did when I was engrossed with World of Warcraft. TTRPGs like D&D require actual people to get together and even my playing 2 nights a week plus whatever time I spend outside prepping and thinking about it doesn't eat up large chunks of my life.
Another perhaps unsettling fact regarding my demographic of unpartnered males is that about 50% are unemployed or beyond unemployed in that they've just stopped looking for work. On average they have few or no friends, spend like 2,000 hours a year on screens and many are regularly taking pain killers or weed. On the one hand that is sad, on the other hand throughout most of history large populations of disaffected males are one of the most destructive forces to societies. This population seems to be sedated and pacified enough to not be causing as much trouble.
I've circled around that drainpipe but have seen the misery and despair there and made choices that have taken my life in a different direction. I wish they could find ways to engage in healthy, meaningful activities rather than get sucked down into this level of anomie.
Yes, it's a fantasy story and a game through and through. Built on a familiar structure that mimics real life in many ways. And the illusion reveals itself for a discerning eye. Maybe an impossible standard to align with a Buddhist understanding since by their very design, stories and games are meant to engage and entangle the audience within the world. Real life, having a family and a job, and living in a society does the same sort of manipulating which is probably why people find games like this so engaging.
I, too, was disappointed in a lot of the chosen mechanics and missed opportunities for alternative means of playing the game/accomplishing challenges. Though it has been an improvement on previous titles from the studio, and the studio does generally attempt to push games in a more positive direction than other gaming studios. Even if they were to have all those features which allow non-violent progress to build a meaningful sense of purpose around, or even to live a holy life in-game, it's still a purposeless game. It's still building attachments and entanglements to the world.
@person I guess the first two questions that always comes up for me is "What to do instead? and How is that different?". If playing WoW makes a WoW enthusiast feel the same way cleaning a workshop makes a workshop enthusiast feel, what's the difference? A career tradesman may have used-up hands. Maybe similarly a career gamer may have used-up eyes. One displays an accomplishment on the wall or floor, another displays an accomplishment on a forum or profile. They both use up the earth's resources for their own enjoyment. Both can choose to be engrossed in their chosen activity or not.
Here in much of the US people are not looked upon by leaders and peers in a positive way. We are often referred to by our own government as consumers, by our own bosses as liabilities and expenses, and the depth of our connection to friends is measured based on what value we can provide to them. Can't blame people for being disaffected when perceived by others as something that only eats, is a burden, and relatively valueless. If those are the options, then maybe more unsettling is how many people still choose to engage in that way of living. But there is no conventional escape that I can see. It all leads to more strife, not less.
The only option I keep returning to which holds any real value is going forth. Though I don't even really know what that means. Everything else feels like fluff. But I do like fluff. A lot of us like fluff. That's why I keep returning to pick fluff. I think I spent two hours reading and responding to this post and I really enjoyed it. But as you've both, and others, likely stated before, it's also fluff.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited September 2023
@FleaMarket said: @person I guess the first two questions that always comes up for me is "What to do instead? and How is that different?". If playing WoW makes a WoW enthusiast feel the same way cleaning a workshop makes a workshop enthusiast feel, what's the difference? A career tradesman may have used-up hands. Maybe similarly a career gamer may have used-up eyes. One displays an accomplishment on the wall or floor, another displays an accomplishment on a forum or profile. They both use up the earth's resources for their own enjoyment. Both can choose to be engrossed in their chosen activity or not.
Its mostly about how doing each activity makes me feel afterwards. I have a lot of activities that provide me enjoyment that most people in society think are pointless or weird. I love story and have seen so many of the serial dramas available on streaming and I love to talk about them with others if they've seen them too. I'm enjoying playing TTRPGs with people, imagining characters, their stories and personalities and the challenge of trying to translate what's in my head in real time to others. Whatever, they make me happy.
I'm sure I have an addictive personality, I was never able to find a balance with video games like WoW or Diablo, etc. I'd hop on as soon as I got home from work and play all weekend, the rest of my life suffered for it. I just redownloaded an old time consuming game of mine Civ 5. I spent a few hours on it and it was just blah. The extra time I have lets me keep a cleaner house, keep my life more organized and managed. The payoff to me feels better for IRL accomplishments.
No judgement on how you like to spend your time. For me, I get too involved and they leave me feeling less well afterwards.
Some of those pointless weird activities are really the best. Finding wonder in the mundane. I went for a walk today and came across a red-ant hill on the trail and just watched them for a bit. It was pretty cool. The other day after a brief rain I came across a floating leaf suspended by a strand of spider web but no nearby overhead cover for it to attach to. Just dangling and spinning in the wind. (It's still raining in summer here, really weird!)
I certainly remember having the addictive craving for those very same games. Though I think for me the craving came from a desire to escape school, peers, and family. An obsession which lead to mediocre grades and frustrated parents. But isn't it just a stretched rubber band with both sides blaming each other for the tension? From my perspective, "If only they'd played with me." From their perspective probably, "If only he'd done what we asked of him." It's the same but I didn't know any better back then. I barely do now!
Too many potential directions to take this conversation in..
I'm just exploring options in maybe a sort of half-brained way. The questions sound rhetorical but aren't. I'm feeling stuck in the view I have nothing to do and an answer that is to do nothing. But really, I think it's just me letting loneliness proliferate instead of doing something about it. I guess that's why I like games and smoking weed. Imaginary friends to talk to and keep me company. Probably why I enjoy hanging out here so much too. It makes sense, but making sense doesn't exactly resolve much.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
An addictive personality, @person? I’ve had my brushes with addiction and ended up concluding that addiction was more about things that were missing from real life. Games can become places where life becomes significant, where you are a hero, where you make a difference. People who live an unfulfilled life are more vulnerable to that kind of thing.
For me, fulfilment was found in work for a long time. I did what I loved doing (which was making games) and worked pretty hard at it, until I broke down from accumulated stress. Then I discovered that all the fulfilments of work were just temporary, those achievements were hollow, satisfactions that lasted a moment and not more. In recovering from that breakdown I started to study Buddhism.
In the years since I have made reading spiritual literature into my meditation, in an attempt to find something more in the world than just following my enthusiasms. But I think Osho was right to say that one should live life, that one shouldn’t worry about death or the hereafter. A simple life, the last few years have been for me.
And all of this came from games, and making games. If you really think deeply on playing games and what it means, it takes you to the pain points in your life, the discontent that you’d rather avoid, and then on to suffering, dhukka and buddhism. Which are very much real life concerns.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
In fact a game is a mirror, a reflection of all the hangups that you still have, the things that you yearn for from this samsaric existence. That is why it is so enticing, and also why playing mindfully can be such a good lesson. It is an escape, there is no doubt about that, from difficulties and unfulfilled desires and dreams to a puzzle-like half existence where these things can be fulfilled.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Yeah I just watched a bit more of Baldurs Gate 3 video’s…
@person said:
It’s mostly about how doing each activity makes me feel afterwards.
And I noticed watching the combat sequences was making me feel impatient. That leads to power gaming, to trying to solve the combats ever faster, because what I really care about is…
I love story and have seen so many of the serial dramas available on streaming and I love to talk about them with others if they've seen them too.
The story of the main character and his companions. I agree, story is a powerful draw, and maybe film and tv is a more pure expression of story than a game. When the combat becomes predictable, loses its newness and it’s just going through the motions, what remains besides the story?
I'm enjoying playing TTRPGs with people, imagining characters, their stories and personalities and the challenge of trying to translate what's in my head in real time to others. Whatever, they make me happy.
Table-top RPGs are less predictable because of the presence of a Dungeon Master, and the collaborative aspects of telling the story together, which makes it pretty unique.
I just redownloaded an old time consuming game of mine Civ 5. I spent a few hours on it and it was just blah.
I know that feeling, when you know a game really well you don’t fancy returning to it. Those dreams have already been lived.
I’m seriously considering not getting further involved with BG3, having watched so much of the let’s play series (I’m a little over halfway) the game already feels familiar and well-known. My cousin may need to find someone else to play with.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2023
I’m finding it difficult to come to a decision. The whole atmosphere of animosity, combat, death and consequence that lies over the Baldurs Gate 3 story and gameplay I perceive as a burden, it draws me in because of “things being left undone in the story”, it makes me tense, and it blocks my way to being relaxed and loving. Maybe I’ve become overly sensitive to these things, but it doesn’t make me happy or feel good.
I’ve told my cousin I’m having some second thoughts about joining him on a multiplayer quest, and will let him know in a few days’ time. But I think I’ve already made a decision, it’s just not my thing anymore, even in a tactical game.
The main thing I’m noticing is I get drawn in, attached to the characters and the story, I feel compelled to fight and there is so much combat in the game that it just feels like a world full of animosity with just a few points of light in it. I notice just from watching the videos of play I get tense. I got quite a long way into the video series, I think I watched maybe 40 hours of it in a week. So even that was quite immersive.
But it isn’t suited to my spiritual path, I don’t think… my inner senses are giving off warning signals that what I’m doing is not good for me.
@Jeroen said:
But it isn’t suited to my spiritual path, I don’t think… my inner senses are giving off warning signals that what I’m doing is not good for me.
The way I think it works:
If you continue down the path you are sensing is unwholesome, you will feel alright for a little while, but you are sure to experience suffering and be frustrated with yourself for a long while afterward.
If you discontinue going down the path you are sensing is unwholesome, you will feel frustrated and confused for a little while, but you will not experience suffering or frustration with yourself afterwards, and something else will fill the hole/energy/time previously filled by the former activity, hopefully and probably something better.
You mention the story and that is my favorite part about the game so it got me thinking about my experience so far and the impacts I've noticed.
The game's story familiarizes a certain kind of narrative, or way of interacting with people, or type of relationship. Kind of like growing up with certain friends that have a certain sense of humor, but that humor may not be appropriate outside the circle of friends. It kind of rubs off on you. Then may have to deal with the un-learning it.
Not sure if you've ever had the sensation after watching a particularly interesting movie or reading a particularly engaging book that your way of viewing things shifted. Sometimes it can be a big sensation and sometimes it sort of takes a while for it to "return to normal".
Self-help books come to mind but it happens with fantasy too. For example, I remember reading the Harry Potter books and then looking down alley ways and dead ends for secret passages, thinking magic may be in hidden places. Or watching the newest Batman feature and leaving with an exaggerated expectation of society's imminent collapse, with an eye for the dysfunctional.
The world is no different than it was before the book or movie but it was experienced differently afterward, but only until new incoming experiences could shape it back into the usual way of seeing things. Sort of like an intoxication from drama or something. I like BG3, it's fun. In liking it, I give it attention and that attention picks up on those things and, for lack of a better word, intoxicates the mind to the drama of it. It shows up in the way I relate to others and to my world until it fades.
Is this why we take refuge in the Sangha? I kind of see it as a group with the same or similar characteristics, relationships, stories, etc.. which defend and protect against the many fragmented and intoxicating ways of viewing/experiencing the world. Someone in the inner-Sangha wants to play BG3 still but the others can tell it shapes the world with a colored lens. What to do?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Its hard to find things that are truly pure or that will please you 100%. Much about activities, groups, other people is unappealing to me. But I want to do certain things or socialize to some extent, so I kind of have to suck it up and take the good with the bad. In the end life is rarely a straight line and taking wrong turns or going down dark alleys can teach us things that serve us on the spiritual path, so long as we can kind of maintain that mindful condition.
But, yeah, sometimes we've already gone down that road before and even though it has a pull on us we are just over it, we know what's down there.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
In the end, I thought Act 1 of the story was enjoyably light toned, but as you get further in the story gets a bit darker, some companion characters die permanently or leave, and a lot of the combat becomes rather grim. But that’s just my opinion, you may find it more to your taste…
For me, I find I disconnect from the whole thing when the atmosphere becomes too much, and I just can’t stand to watch further play, let alone partake in it. I watched the grand finale of the Let’s Play, skipping most of the combat, just to get some closure on the story. But I’m not going to buy the game.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Jeroen said: If I listen deeply to my heart, it tells me I have done enough imaginary killing in my life.
I had almost forgotten that I had written this. Apparently even BG3 being a turn-based tactical game isn’t enough to keep me from registering dark atmosphere and violent action and death. There was a brief period where I could watch the videos of the game without feeling it, but eventually it started pressing on me, and I’ve concluded I am better off letting it go.
It actually started giving me some minor symptoms of my burnout from 2011, which is a fairly certain sign that it was not doing me any good, and thats only from watching the videos. It was a stress reaction, maybe I am still more vulnerable to that than I thought.
I will look a bit further into ‘mindful playing’, we will see about that.
It sounds like you are in tune with your feelings @Jeroen, and making decisions based on some clear-minded reflections.
One thing I notice meditation does very well is put me in touch with my feelings to a greater degree. I become much more sensitive to emotional shifts and how things make me feel compared to when I don't meditate. The area it appeared most notably for me was in netflix shows I'd watch. I lost much of the enjoyment I'd once found in the violence and gore. I just had no stomach for it any more. Instead of it drawing me in to the show I just kept thinking "Why am I watching this? It's making me feel bad." Also interesting is after stopping meditating for a while some of that sensitivity went away and a, albeit limited, taste for violence returned.
coincidentally I am listening to a podcast my doctor recommended to listen to. it talks about the brain's dopamine homeostasis balancing in the brain. It doesn't relate to the ethics of violent images but it is a great discussion of how (sadly) the fun part of games and other behaviors can get us into an addiction of sorts.
This week, we bring you the second part of our conversation on the perils of too much pleasure. Psychiatrist Anna Lembke explains the neuroscience behind compulsive consumption, and how it alters our brains. She also shares techniques she’s learned from her patients to overcome the lure of addictive substances and behaviors.
side note as I listen: the practice that many newbuddhists have been talking about of very cold showers is mentioned towards the end of the podcast. As pushing too much on the pleasure side can result in pain/addictions... So too pushing on the pain side (though not in excess) things like exercise or meditation or sitting in cold or even ice water pushing on this pain side of the brain can adjust the brain to generally tip the teeter totter back to a better feeling pleasure.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I’ve just been revisiting this thread, there are a lot of good posts in it. It surprises me that it just took an invitation from my cousin to turn all the talk of game ethics on its head and suck me back in… Phew, close call.
I think you’re right though @person when you talk about the dangers of disaffected males. Society is not well structured as it is, I’ve just read Gabor Maté’s book The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture in which he talks about some of these things.
@FleaMarket said:
Here in much of the US people are not looked upon by leaders and peers in a positive way. We are often referred to by our own government as consumers, by our own bosses as liabilities and expenses, and the depth of our connection to friends is measured based on what value we can provide to them.
I think in a way those disaffected people still find much value in games, where they can be heroes and saviours of the common people. It’s one of the good things that games are still doing for society, keeping things from boiling over.
The thing is, does it turn into gaming addiction, with a lot of the accompanying symptoms of social isolation, long hours behind screens, poor diet and physical problems? That is also not an ideal way to live, and only a short distance to an opioid addiction.
The only option I keep returning to which holds any real value is going forth.
For me it is what connects me to the spiritual path. The pursuit of truth, freedom and happiness is ultimately much more important than games. And even now, twelve years later, I still feel the effects of my breakdown back then, I’m not as healed as I thought, still more sensitive to a lot of things than I was when I was thirty.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@FleaMarket said:
I lost much of the enjoyment I'd once found in the violence and gore. I just had no stomach for it any more. Instead of it drawing me in to the show I just kept thinking "Why am I watching this? It's making me feel bad."
Yes I noticed this even while watching CSI, which is not exactly that gory. But when you notice, “it is making me feel bad” it often takes an extended period of reflection to take action on it, it’s as if some parts of our decision making process are just very slow to register things.
It has just encouraged me to become even more selective in what tv I partake of. I can put up with a little gore or horror-tinged stuff, and then I will just switch off.
@Jeroen said:
I’ve just been revisiting this thread, there are a lot of good posts in it. It surprises me that it just took an invitation from my cousin to turn all the talk of game ethics on its head and suck me back in… Phew, close call.
Ardent, diligent, and resolute.
Attempting to paraphrase something @how's said: The path to liberation is lined by many who've become distracted, stuck, given up along the way.
Lots of stories have the moment when a gate guard looks away, allowing an opportunity for events to unfold.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Initially a game like Baldurs Gate 3 calls on your goodness and willingness to help others, this sucks you into the path of combat and killing evil creatures, and on the other hand it addicts you to the cycle of “battle-excitement-killing-reward” which is conditioning that works on the dopamine pathways in the brain.
This is something that’s well expressed in the fantasy book series The Deeds of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon, which is about a paladin who is captured by Dark Elves and forced to fight in an underground arena, continually being healed by their dark magics and then fighting more, and on being rescued and recovering, finding that she can fight no more.
For me, the dopamine cycle is something I’m vulnerable to. Playing World of Warcraft was it in its purest form, but actually it was already present in Dungeon Master on the Atari ST back in 1988. In Baldur’s Gate 3 it is a bit slower because of the turn-based nature of the combat and the larger fights, four adventurers versus often a dozen opponents, but it’s still present.
That is the fine detail, on the larger scale you are doing quests and your reward for progress there is gaining story segments, advancing the plot of the game. This also puts a certain pressure on the player, because all of this rescuing of yourself and the world becomes your responsibility.
There is a progression in the story, initially it is about your own survival and helping others, then you unveil a plot to recreate an ancient cross-planar empire, and it becomes about a larger destiny. So the scope expands from “limited” to “epic”.
More questions?
Is life not like an Adventure game itself? Were we not all originally born with a blank mind? Is not the object of life to acquire the knowledge so that all of what we do and what we say is successful, works for us. When things work well are we not rewarded with feel good? And when we fail, and our doings and sayings are not working for us, are we not punished with feel bad? Is the object of life not to get passed failures and turn those into successes? Are there not winners and losers in this game?
If life is a game itself and games are fun, why not just play that one?
Pete.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2023
In a crpg like Baldur’s Gate 3 you have a quest log which tracks the state of various elements of the story, which you don’t have in a table-top rpg. That is a pretty big difference in approach between the two, the ttrpg is organic and relies on memory, the crpg has rigid predetermined notes.
But the implementation of D&D 5th Edition in BG3 does show how much of the rules and also spells and items are concerned with combat. It is still the key element of play, and shows the heritage of the original rules as a tactical combat game, going back to Chainmail.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited September 2023
@Jeroen said:
In a crpg like Baldur’s Gate 3 you have a quest log which tracks the state of various elements of the story, which you don’t have in a table-top rpg. That is a pretty big difference in approach between the two, the ttrpg is organic and relies on memory, the crpg has rigid predetermined notes.
But the implementation of D&D 5th Edition in BG3 does show how much of the rules and also spells and items are concerned with combat. It is still the key element of play, and shows the heritage of the original rules as a tactical combat game, going back to Chainmail.
Its true that the majority of D&D's rules are centered around combat. My experience so far with different GMs has been a good mix between roleplay, exploration and combat. Currently I have one GM who's focus is mostly on story and character, her combats aren't all that challenging and rules are often bent or disregarded in favor of doing fun, cool things. The second is pretty balance between story and combat, the GM is good at being spontaneous and creative and 3 out of 4 players heavily invest in their character's stories and RP. For both of these groups I'm playing wizards right now that are more utility focused than blasting damage.
The third is actually a Pathfinder game and is primarily combat focused, its enter a room, fight some things, get the loot, heal, rinse and repeat. Little RP, its nerd bros cracking jokes and debating rules. Pathfinder is even more rule heavy than D&D. Its only been going 9 sessions so far and I'm just getting over my overwhelm at learning a new rules system, a new Virtual Table Top, a new group of players, and a new character class. I've been slowly able to let go of a focus on the rules and get descriptive and creative. I know at least one other player and seemingly the GM is interested a more immersive game, so we'll see what comes of it.
BG3 is built on the D&D rules system and video games so far are limited to linear programming, though they can be pretty complex these days. Personally in my TTRPG games I take notes to keep things clear on what and why we're doing things. It helps me with the RP of it all.
There are loads of other less combat oriented TTRPGs out there that are less popular and probably harder to find a good group. I'm not that familiar with them but a couple of the more well known combat light games are Call of Cthulu and Vampire the Masquerade.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2023
I thought this was pretty funny…
It’s actually pretty clever, Polymorph’ing a monster with low Wisdom and so not much chance of making the saving throw. But it shows how something that might be a difficult combat encounter can be circumvented with a little luck and good play. It’s something that Larian Games disallowed in BG3 by reducing the duration of a lot of the better crowd-control spells, I read somewhere.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2023
I’m actually finding these highlights of Critical Role to be a lot funnier and more accessible than the main series of episodes itself, which are a bit long. Winding down from engaging with BG3.
In there you also see the way combat encounters dominate the game, because they are worked out in so much detail compared to the in between and social time. I think it’s a natural consequence of the importance of life and death, that you want it to be mediated in detail with rules and dice rolls.
I like the way Matt Mercer treats critical successes and critical failures, it adds a lot of humour to the game, and the others play along with this in a fun way. It was all Ashley’s fault for rolling an 8.
I did find it interesting that in Baldur’s Gate 3 I watched most of an entire play through without the Cleric throwing a single heal. When healing was required this vlogger would start throwing potions, which kind of obviates the whole point of bringing a Cleric to the party. In Critical Role the Clerics most definitely did cast healing spells.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited September 2023
Healing in D&D doesn't work the same as in video games, you can't really outheal the damage. Time in combat slows way down to handle the minutia, but most combats only last 2 to 4 rounds (cycles through all the PCs and NPCs). Individual game sessions really vary in the amount of combat, some can be almost all combat while other times games can go a few sessions with little to no combat. I suspect the nature of clips vs complete sessions favors the combat, I'd say maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of their gameplay is combat, the majority is exploration and RP.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I missed the edit time. I would say the slower, more drawn out pace is part of what attracts me. It gives more time to process and think. It is a long time to invest though and I usually listen while I'm working, I too often lose patience when watching the stream at home, it isn't as engaging as TV, movies or video games.
The designers of 5th edition purposefully made it so parties don't have to be balanced and fit the MMORPG template of tank, healer, dps. People don't often want to be pigeon holed like that. Laura Bailey's character Jester in season 2 rarely cast healing spells, it was an ongoing joke that she was a cleric that never healed. Clerics (and other healing classes) have lots of other tools to help a party out in their bags.
It's so bold they wear their lives on their sleeves like that for the world to see. They play a character in each season but they also play themselves and their relationships with each other and that's such a revealing position to be in. I really envy their ability to just be out there like that for everyone to watch.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
The designers of 5th edition purposefully made it so parties don't have to be balanced and fit the MMORPG template of tank, healer, dps. People don't often want to be pigeon holed like that. Laura Bailey's character Jester in season 2 rarely cast healing spells, it was an ongoing joke that she was a cleric that never healed. Clerics (and other healing classes) have lots of other tools to help a party out in their bags.
It’s true that with Guiding Bolt and Spirit Guardians Clerics can do pretty fair damage, and with spell slots you’re not really penalised for preparing both healing and damage and utility spells. Certainly BG3 shows that to pretty good effect.
But you can kind of see that without an MMORPG threat-style mechanism the whole idea of a tank doesn’t really work. It’s relatively easy for the whole party to maintain similar armour classes and so similar damage avoidance, which means you don’t really get glass cannons in the same way that you did in the old-style D&D, and so there is no need for monsters to focus their attacks.
Of course that does depend on the distribution of magic items in the game, which is something that the Dungeon Master controls. So in a way how important this is, and the need to spend actions on taunts like the Bear’s Goading Roar, is kinda up to him. The other thing that was clear from BG3 was the difference stealth makes for Wizards, hiding and staying unseen has become easier for non-rogues.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@FleaMarket said:
It's so bold they wear their lives on their sleeves like that for the world to see. They play a character in each season but they also play themselves and their relationships with each other and that's such a revealing position to be in. I really envy their ability to just be out there like that for everyone to watch.
Yes, it’s something that you learn with the acting part of playing D&D, that you reveal more of yourself and you play with that. There is also a certain amount of buffoonery involved, you learn to make fun of yourself after a while. Starting out as someone with a rather introverted personality, this can make you more able to express yourself, if you see other people around you do it.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Yesterday I played a board game with my cousin and his family, the game was Ticket to Ride: Europe, it was at his home and I brought a large cake as a surprise for the family, which we ate together. The kids appreciated the whipped cream top but weren’t so enamoured of the cake base, to my surprise. We were busy from about 14.30 until 18.00, it was a long game.
As far as mindful playing was concerned, my familiarity with Ticket to Ride: USA allowed me to call on some familiar patterns, I know the trade-offs in this game well and could estimate the value of various strategies in terms of victory points pretty well. It occurs to me this is a purely mechanical process which is clearly defined, and so the mind derives a certain pleasure from the optimising of the play to achieve the maximum number of points.
Comparing that to a computer game like Baldur’s Gate 3, the CRPG has much greater emotional aspects to it. The characters with voice acting and romance scenes mean you form a certain attachment to them which draws you into doing their quests in the game. So on the one hand the mind is trying to optimise play, and on the other hand your emotions get involved dealing with the characters and villains.
Ultimately winning or losing comes down to a mastery of the mechanics, and I did a good job with that on the board game, and I managed to win the game over my cousin by around fifteen points or so, about 135 to 120. But I think in Baldur's Gate 3 it’s your emotional likes and dislikes that determine which quest lines you want to pursue, and so set up your “victory”.
The whole idea of an ultimate “victory” or resolution to the main player quest line in BG3 is also something that gives the mind a short-lived boost of pleasure, that was clear to me. Victory means status, acknowledgement of being the best, superior tactical insight. It’s an echo of ecstasy. But ultimately it is not fulfilment, it is instead the peak of the mind’s achievement.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I think that is something along the lines of what I concluded, without as much insight. These engrossing video games game that sort of constant boosts of reward, but ultimately left me feeling unfulfilled and drained.
This is why I've moved toward TTRPGs, I'd include board games in that too. They also offer some of that reward my mind enjoys around figuring systems out and mastery. Not that that is a part of the spiritual path, just that its something that I find enjoyable. What games that more directly interact with other people do is offer more in the way of real emotional connection rather than the illusiory computer generated ones. So far I've found that more fulfilling, I feel better after a session rather than worse.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
I think the mind in general likes optimising and making good-value decisions, moving towards a goal, and in a game you find more of those and they are more clear-cut than in real life. Also the mind likes learning strategies and insights, it makes it feel it becomes more effective, better. It is part of what makes games appealing.
But in games these strategies and insights always have to do with points, goals, winning. It’s a very limited palette of mechanical motions.
Of course other people make the decision-making process more messy. But all table top games (whether they are rpgs or board games) share the experience of sitting around a table and interacting with your fellow players. Often there is a bit of banter, or just social chit-chat.
But it’s interesting that the insight into computer games is still trickling in, a week after I stopped watching the videos.
Emotional trust seems really important when playing with a group. The vulnerability of adding your personality to the performance knowing others may respond in harmful, playful, dismissive, or encouraging ways. I, my self, am quite sensitive to those responses. Maybe less sensitive to the way I respond to others.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@FleaMarket said:
Emotional trust seems really important when playing with a group. The vulnerability of adding your personality to the performance knowing others may respond in harmful, playful, dismissive, or encouraging ways. I, my self, am quite sensitive to those responses. Maybe less sensitive to the way I respond to others.
My experience so far has been that people understand that its part of the game. The games I've been in have been pretty non judgmental spaces with other people who would like to do the same. You're playing with others who are on board, not a bunch of unaware normies. If you do find yourself in that sort of game, find another group.
@person said:
My experience so far has been that people understand that its part of the game. The games I've been in have been pretty non judgmental spaces with other people who would like to do the same. You're playing with others who are on board, not a bunch of unaware normies.
I think those who can find such a group are very fortunate. To be both among and also one of those on board. Have you watched much of Critical Role @person? I'd be interested in your take on their dynamic. Even professionals such as them, I'm not sure it's always understood to be part of the game.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
I have to say, it’s been my experience as well, @FleaMarket Role-playing groups tend to be made up of people who understand that it’s all part of the process, who have some connection to the idea of ‘play’ as an adult. It’s all fun and part of the game, and sometimes there’s a little joking around and you take that in your stride, sometimes people give you compliments on good play and saving the group, it varies.
There tends to be a process, a gradual opening up, when you join a role playing group. There is a bit of feeling your way, of gently trying things out as you get to know each other. Of course some things are left until later, and these are generally the more sensitive areas.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
I just recently came across a famous incident in the history of Critical Role, that Joe Manganiello’s character Arkhan stole the Hand of Vecna (a well-known and very powerful evil artifact) from the group at the end of a campaign. This was accepted into canon D&D lore too…
It’s one of those things where to have an evil player character in the group can have consequences, but man, that was a plan that was long in the making, and very well executed. I’m not surprised it made him rather famous in certain circles. It certainly blew my mind.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
My experience so far has been that people understand that its part of the game. The games I've been in have been pretty non judgmental spaces with other people who would like to do the same. You're playing with others who are on board, not a bunch of unaware normies.
I think those who can find such a group are very fortunate. To be both among and also one of those on board. Have you watched much of Critical Role @person? I'd be interested in your take on their dynamic. Even professionals such as them, I'm not sure it's always understood to be part of the game.
I'll echo @Jeroen 's post, that people who play table top games, board and RPG, are on the more socially awkward side of the spectrum and tend to be pretty supportive and open. Though there are certainly awkward people there who don't get it, but they seem to be in the minority.
I listen to the podcast version while working usually. I listened to all of campaign 2 and am pretty much up to date on campaign 3. Regarding their dynamic, they're long time friends so there is plenty of good will built up, and my understanding of the acting/improv world is that in the process of experimentation and spontaneity sometimes lines are crossed, but its accepted that that can happen. I don't see much of it among them though.
Regarding your anxiety in general. Its usually better to take small steps and acclimate gradually, rather than just imagining yourself jumping right in and acting super outgoing. I've spent a lot of time gradually working my way out of social anxiety, probably worth a thread in itself, and have plenty more work to do. I can say that the standard go to strategy of hiding out and protecting oneself doesn't work in the long run and usually makes things worse, it reinforces to the brain that socializing is dangerous.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
It’s certainly true that back in the days when I played Dungeons and Dragons with school and Uni buddies in the late 80’s and early 90’s it was very much a male nerdy pastime… it would go together with an interest in computers and technology, and a lot of the young guys who played were rather socially awkward, as was I, I just happened to be better at hiding it than most.
I don’t think that’s entirely true anymore though. YouTube shows like Critical Role are helping to repopularise the game, and it seems to be becoming a totally acceptable hobby, slanted a bit towards gamers and actors. Last time I played was in Amsterdam at a little mini convention a few years ago, and there was a good mixed crowd.
If you do want to open a thread on social anxiety @person I will certainly have a few posts to contribute, for me this has been an important limitation in my life which as little as 15 years ago I was still working actively to overcome. Now that I’m past 50 years of age it is no longer as urgent, but for me being social is like a muscle which atrophies with disuse, and if too much time passes without a lot of social activity I feel it becoming more of an effort.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@FleaMarket said:
Emotional trust seems really important when playing with a group. The vulnerability of adding your personality to the performance knowing others may respond in harmful, playful, dismissive, or encouraging ways. I, my self, am quite sensitive to those responses. Maybe less sensitive to the way I respond to others.
But @FleaMarket it’s supposed to be fun, a safe environment in which you can try new things. Maybe you’d like to try it sometime?
@Jeroen said:
But @FleaMarket it’s supposed to be fun, a safe environment in which you can try new things. Maybe you’d like to try it sometime?
I've tried with a few different friend groups over the years. Even got to DM for two single-day campaigns I constructed myself. It certainly can be fun, especially when the imagination is running strong. It also requires a lot of organization and demands full attention and probably most importantly, everyone else has to view it as a fun and safe environment in which we can try new things, and sort of be on the same page with what that means. As cool a game as it is, it requires a lot of stars to align for a considerable amount of time to work out. So yeah, possibly under certain conditions. Maybe sometime.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I wanted to reference this discussion here, because it is in part relevant.
Games have an element of challenge, which often manifests as conflict, and in computer games the player is often cast as “the good” while “the bad” is stage managed by the game. This can be formative on young people, it’s a form of conditioning if you play a lot of games at a certain age.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
The players of Dungeons and Dragons on Death Row in Texas…
It seems that even in prison they can’t take away the freedom of the imagination. It seems to be one of the few ways these guys can connect and share something of their lives and the things they struggle with, very touching story.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
This thread having gone on so long I can see some patterns. You want to move past the heroics, imaginary killing, min/maxing, etc. in games. At the same time there is a solid draw in them for you.
Perhaps there is something in the games that strikes that chord in you that can be explored through a different medium? I think you have a building/structured side of yourself that maybe because of the environment you grew up in wasn't especially celebrated or encouraged? Maybe some sort of maker/crafting hobby could scratch that itch for understanding and manipulating systems? If you're concerned that that sort of behavior isn't spiritually conducive, I'd say there are practices for all temperaments. In my time in Tibetan Buddhism I've seen plenty of practices that might fit that mold, such as the detail involved in making sand mandalas.
Comments
Baldurs Gate 3 is more like a giant puzzle, in the more difficult encounters it is like a tactical game, with thought required before you make your moves, rather than engaging in the automated aspects of real-time play. I’ve watched a bit more of the Let’s Play and it’s become clear to me that you don’t really need to play optimally in order to enjoy the game, the barest minimum of min-maxing is enough to keep the party viable.
It does seem that in multiplayer it is more difficult because you need to arrange tactics across the players and you can’t just control what the whole party is going to do.
I wonder if my PC can run it.
I've been enjoying it so far. The story is quite engaging and the gameplay reflects modern capabilities. Like being a wizard with a spell that makes it rain/create water but finding uses for it outside of combat. It rewards exploration and creative thinking but doesn't hinder a straightforward approach either. I'm playing a sassy Bard which adds a lot of depth to conversations and you can randomly bust out your lute or harp and play music for people. Though I haven't completed it all yet. @Kotishka I'm not sure what kind of specs your PC has but for a modern game, the requirements are fairly minimal.
The thing is, the whole game world is crafted to give you very important things to do, to make you significant and heroic. There are many quests where others put their burdens on you, giving you things to ‘fix’ or situations to ‘solve’, drawing on our will to make the world “just so”. It makes you more into a doer.
And what you end up doing is just depopulating the map, killing monsters, goblins and undead left right and centre until almost nothing moves anymore except a few NPCs. It’s like the players role is to make the world safe for the citizens of Baldurs Gate.
My personal inclination is to let things be as they are… why go and upset the natural balances, why be a front for human supremacy and prejudice, why kill all these things? There is no space for contemplation and meditation in that game world. I don’t think the Buddha would fight.
The problem is, the world of D&D contains lots of things that our world does not… the soulless hungering of undeath, brain devouring mind flayers that prey on humans, devils from other planes of existence, evil gods and their chosen. To protect “the people” from these perils we are encouraged to take action, and buy into the concept of the heroic adventure, slaying all manner of wickedness.
But really because of the way experience and levels work in the game it doesn’t really allow you to avoid combat while completing quests, turning it into a kind of stealth game. In theory you could but you would not get very far I don’t think.
From another perspective, the game places you at the center of an internal and personal struggle. The opening scene is of you kidnapped and trapped while a mind-flayer embeds a parasite into your mind. The following journey is about finding a way to remove it before it consumes your mind. Or learning how to grow it and harness the mind powers.
Of course being a heroic-type game based on D&D, this leads you on an epic adventure which involves many other characters and their stories. One that allows you to decide whether to grow your mind parasite and powers through the guise of being helpful solutions to your roadblocks, or to ignore the inklings/offerings of power and just be a person on the journey for answers and hopefully parasite-removal.
While I'd agree the game world has no real place for contemplation and meditation, and depopulation appears unavoidable in full, I found the writing and dialogue insightful at times. Coming across a conversation or choice or revelation in story that triggers a familiarity with my own life and workings of my own mind.
So I tend to observe the story as one that doesn't exactly take place in a world but in a mind through the familiarity of a world. And while yes it is a game that serves to build worldly attachments rather than cultivate dispassion, I've found occasional moments have caused me to reflect on things like that.
And I also agree, the Buddha would not fight. The Buddha would not play this game nor suggest others play it. It builds attachment and does not lead to dispassion.
Very true @FleaMarket some of the stories are sensitive and well-written. There are stories of people meeting their gods, composing music, travelling through the hells, having romances. But you have to take the right companion characters in your adventuring party to experience the story at its best, and you can only take three, the rest stay at your camp. Swapping them out as you do certain dungeons is a good idea, and also not always signalled by the game.
But however large and complex and wonderful the experience is, I feel a lot of it is manipulating the player. It plays on the goodness of your heart to get you to solve the problems, mostly through combat and killing monsters. It shows you romancing your companions if you choose to make you more connected to them.
The quests place you the player at the heart of the story, you make the choices which evolve the adventure, or not. So the game imposes on you a lot of “either this, or that” choices through dialogue.
I’m kind of disappointed in the way they implemented experience and levels though, giving experience points for kills and rewarding violence and combat. So you have to engage in combat to advance in the game. In the vast majority of cases combat is unavoidable as well, you’re just attacked as soon as you make contact.
I’ve only been watching Let’s Play videos so far, but I find it challenging to my peace of mind because playing this game feels like taking action. It feels like being there, in the story.
Most of the attention economy is based around this idea of keeping you engaged with another thing to do or notification to respond to. Streaming services auto start the next episode, I'd even argue pretty harmless forums like this engage this part of the brain, there's always another thread to respond to or idea to express.
Of course these aren't all on the same level, economic incentives have shaped these things to be more and more addictive, designed by some of the best engineers and psychologists in the world to keep you engaged.
I've abandoned large scale games that tend to keep me hooked for long periods of time. I don't like the time sink, I'd like to do other things with my time. I still spend a lot of time watching TV shows, movies and fiction books. They don't tend to keep me sucked in in the same way. I'm able to stand up after a show and do things like do the dishes or organize my workshop/storage area for a while. My life doesn't feel so disheveled like it did when I was engrossed with World of Warcraft. TTRPGs like D&D require actual people to get together and even my playing 2 nights a week plus whatever time I spend outside prepping and thinking about it doesn't eat up large chunks of my life.
Another perhaps unsettling fact regarding my demographic of unpartnered males is that about 50% are unemployed or beyond unemployed in that they've just stopped looking for work. On average they have few or no friends, spend like 2,000 hours a year on screens and many are regularly taking pain killers or weed. On the one hand that is sad, on the other hand throughout most of history large populations of disaffected males are one of the most destructive forces to societies. This population seems to be sedated and pacified enough to not be causing as much trouble.
I've circled around that drainpipe but have seen the misery and despair there and made choices that have taken my life in a different direction. I wish they could find ways to engage in healthy, meaningful activities rather than get sucked down into this level of anomie.
(That took a turn I wasn't anticipating.)
Yes, it's a fantasy story and a game through and through. Built on a familiar structure that mimics real life in many ways. And the illusion reveals itself for a discerning eye. Maybe an impossible standard to align with a Buddhist understanding since by their very design, stories and games are meant to engage and entangle the audience within the world. Real life, having a family and a job, and living in a society does the same sort of manipulating which is probably why people find games like this so engaging.
I, too, was disappointed in a lot of the chosen mechanics and missed opportunities for alternative means of playing the game/accomplishing challenges. Though it has been an improvement on previous titles from the studio, and the studio does generally attempt to push games in a more positive direction than other gaming studios. Even if they were to have all those features which allow non-violent progress to build a meaningful sense of purpose around, or even to live a holy life in-game, it's still a purposeless game. It's still building attachments and entanglements to the world.
@person I guess the first two questions that always comes up for me is "What to do instead? and How is that different?". If playing WoW makes a WoW enthusiast feel the same way cleaning a workshop makes a workshop enthusiast feel, what's the difference? A career tradesman may have used-up hands. Maybe similarly a career gamer may have used-up eyes. One displays an accomplishment on the wall or floor, another displays an accomplishment on a forum or profile. They both use up the earth's resources for their own enjoyment. Both can choose to be engrossed in their chosen activity or not.
Here in much of the US people are not looked upon by leaders and peers in a positive way. We are often referred to by our own government as consumers, by our own bosses as liabilities and expenses, and the depth of our connection to friends is measured based on what value we can provide to them. Can't blame people for being disaffected when perceived by others as something that only eats, is a burden, and relatively valueless. If those are the options, then maybe more unsettling is how many people still choose to engage in that way of living. But there is no conventional escape that I can see. It all leads to more strife, not less.
The only option I keep returning to which holds any real value is going forth. Though I don't even really know what that means. Everything else feels like fluff. But I do like fluff. A lot of us like fluff. That's why I keep returning to pick fluff. I think I spent two hours reading and responding to this post and I really enjoyed it. But as you've both, and others, likely stated before, it's also fluff.
Its mostly about how doing each activity makes me feel afterwards. I have a lot of activities that provide me enjoyment that most people in society think are pointless or weird. I love story and have seen so many of the serial dramas available on streaming and I love to talk about them with others if they've seen them too. I'm enjoying playing TTRPGs with people, imagining characters, their stories and personalities and the challenge of trying to translate what's in my head in real time to others. Whatever, they make me happy.
I'm sure I have an addictive personality, I was never able to find a balance with video games like WoW or Diablo, etc. I'd hop on as soon as I got home from work and play all weekend, the rest of my life suffered for it. I just redownloaded an old time consuming game of mine Civ 5. I spent a few hours on it and it was just blah. The extra time I have lets me keep a cleaner house, keep my life more organized and managed. The payoff to me feels better for IRL accomplishments.
No judgement on how you like to spend your time. For me, I get too involved and they leave me feeling less well afterwards.
Some of those pointless weird activities are really the best. Finding wonder in the mundane. I went for a walk today and came across a red-ant hill on the trail and just watched them for a bit. It was pretty cool. The other day after a brief rain I came across a floating leaf suspended by a strand of spider web but no nearby overhead cover for it to attach to. Just dangling and spinning in the wind. (It's still raining in summer here, really weird!)
I certainly remember having the addictive craving for those very same games. Though I think for me the craving came from a desire to escape school, peers, and family. An obsession which lead to mediocre grades and frustrated parents. But isn't it just a stretched rubber band with both sides blaming each other for the tension? From my perspective, "If only they'd played with me." From their perspective probably, "If only he'd done what we asked of him." It's the same but I didn't know any better back then. I barely do now!
Too many potential directions to take this conversation in..
I'm just exploring options in maybe a sort of half-brained way. The questions sound rhetorical but aren't. I'm feeling stuck in the view I have nothing to do and an answer that is to do nothing. But really, I think it's just me letting loneliness proliferate instead of doing something about it. I guess that's why I like games and smoking weed. Imaginary friends to talk to and keep me company. Probably why I enjoy hanging out here so much too. It makes sense, but making sense doesn't exactly resolve much.
An addictive personality, @person? I’ve had my brushes with addiction and ended up concluding that addiction was more about things that were missing from real life. Games can become places where life becomes significant, where you are a hero, where you make a difference. People who live an unfulfilled life are more vulnerable to that kind of thing.
For me, fulfilment was found in work for a long time. I did what I loved doing (which was making games) and worked pretty hard at it, until I broke down from accumulated stress. Then I discovered that all the fulfilments of work were just temporary, those achievements were hollow, satisfactions that lasted a moment and not more. In recovering from that breakdown I started to study Buddhism.
In the years since I have made reading spiritual literature into my meditation, in an attempt to find something more in the world than just following my enthusiasms. But I think Osho was right to say that one should live life, that one shouldn’t worry about death or the hereafter. A simple life, the last few years have been for me.
And all of this came from games, and making games. If you really think deeply on playing games and what it means, it takes you to the pain points in your life, the discontent that you’d rather avoid, and then on to suffering, dhukka and buddhism. Which are very much real life concerns.
In fact a game is a mirror, a reflection of all the hangups that you still have, the things that you yearn for from this samsaric existence. That is why it is so enticing, and also why playing mindfully can be such a good lesson. It is an escape, there is no doubt about that, from difficulties and unfulfilled desires and dreams to a puzzle-like half existence where these things can be fulfilled.
Yeah I just watched a bit more of Baldurs Gate 3 video’s…
And I noticed watching the combat sequences was making me feel impatient. That leads to power gaming, to trying to solve the combats ever faster, because what I really care about is…
The story of the main character and his companions. I agree, story is a powerful draw, and maybe film and tv is a more pure expression of story than a game. When the combat becomes predictable, loses its newness and it’s just going through the motions, what remains besides the story?
Table-top RPGs are less predictable because of the presence of a Dungeon Master, and the collaborative aspects of telling the story together, which makes it pretty unique.
I know that feeling, when you know a game really well you don’t fancy returning to it. Those dreams have already been lived.
I’m seriously considering not getting further involved with BG3, having watched so much of the let’s play series (I’m a little over halfway) the game already feels familiar and well-known. My cousin may need to find someone else to play with.
I’m finding it difficult to come to a decision. The whole atmosphere of animosity, combat, death and consequence that lies over the Baldurs Gate 3 story and gameplay I perceive as a burden, it draws me in because of “things being left undone in the story”, it makes me tense, and it blocks my way to being relaxed and loving. Maybe I’ve become overly sensitive to these things, but it doesn’t make me happy or feel good.
I’ve told my cousin I’m having some second thoughts about joining him on a multiplayer quest, and will let him know in a few days’ time. But I think I’ve already made a decision, it’s just not my thing anymore, even in a tactical game.
The main thing I’m noticing is I get drawn in, attached to the characters and the story, I feel compelled to fight and there is so much combat in the game that it just feels like a world full of animosity with just a few points of light in it. I notice just from watching the videos of play I get tense. I got quite a long way into the video series, I think I watched maybe 40 hours of it in a week. So even that was quite immersive.
But it isn’t suited to my spiritual path, I don’t think… my inner senses are giving off warning signals that what I’m doing is not good for me.
The way I think it works:
If you continue down the path you are sensing is unwholesome, you will feel alright for a little while, but you are sure to experience suffering and be frustrated with yourself for a long while afterward.
If you discontinue going down the path you are sensing is unwholesome, you will feel frustrated and confused for a little while, but you will not experience suffering or frustration with yourself afterwards, and something else will fill the hole/energy/time previously filled by the former activity, hopefully and probably something better.
You mention the story and that is my favorite part about the game so it got me thinking about my experience so far and the impacts I've noticed.
The game's story familiarizes a certain kind of narrative, or way of interacting with people, or type of relationship. Kind of like growing up with certain friends that have a certain sense of humor, but that humor may not be appropriate outside the circle of friends. It kind of rubs off on you. Then may have to deal with the un-learning it.
Not sure if you've ever had the sensation after watching a particularly interesting movie or reading a particularly engaging book that your way of viewing things shifted. Sometimes it can be a big sensation and sometimes it sort of takes a while for it to "return to normal".
Self-help books come to mind but it happens with fantasy too. For example, I remember reading the Harry Potter books and then looking down alley ways and dead ends for secret passages, thinking magic may be in hidden places. Or watching the newest Batman feature and leaving with an exaggerated expectation of society's imminent collapse, with an eye for the dysfunctional.
The world is no different than it was before the book or movie but it was experienced differently afterward, but only until new incoming experiences could shape it back into the usual way of seeing things. Sort of like an intoxication from drama or something. I like BG3, it's fun. In liking it, I give it attention and that attention picks up on those things and, for lack of a better word, intoxicates the mind to the drama of it. It shows up in the way I relate to others and to my world until it fades.
Is this why we take refuge in the Sangha? I kind of see it as a group with the same or similar characteristics, relationships, stories, etc.. which defend and protect against the many fragmented and intoxicating ways of viewing/experiencing the world. Someone in the inner-Sangha wants to play BG3 still but the others can tell it shapes the world with a colored lens. What to do?
Its hard to find things that are truly pure or that will please you 100%. Much about activities, groups, other people is unappealing to me. But I want to do certain things or socialize to some extent, so I kind of have to suck it up and take the good with the bad. In the end life is rarely a straight line and taking wrong turns or going down dark alleys can teach us things that serve us on the spiritual path, so long as we can kind of maintain that mindful condition.
But, yeah, sometimes we've already gone down that road before and even though it has a pull on us we are just over it, we know what's down there.
In the end, I thought Act 1 of the story was enjoyably light toned, but as you get further in the story gets a bit darker, some companion characters die permanently or leave, and a lot of the combat becomes rather grim. But that’s just my opinion, you may find it more to your taste…
For me, I find I disconnect from the whole thing when the atmosphere becomes too much, and I just can’t stand to watch further play, let alone partake in it. I watched the grand finale of the Let’s Play, skipping most of the combat, just to get some closure on the story. But I’m not going to buy the game.
I had almost forgotten that I had written this. Apparently even BG3 being a turn-based tactical game isn’t enough to keep me from registering dark atmosphere and violent action and death. There was a brief period where I could watch the videos of the game without feeling it, but eventually it started pressing on me, and I’ve concluded I am better off letting it go.
It actually started giving me some minor symptoms of my burnout from 2011, which is a fairly certain sign that it was not doing me any good, and thats only from watching the videos. It was a stress reaction, maybe I am still more vulnerable to that than I thought.
I will look a bit further into ‘mindful playing’, we will see about that.
It sounds like you are in tune with your feelings @Jeroen, and making decisions based on some clear-minded reflections.
One thing I notice meditation does very well is put me in touch with my feelings to a greater degree. I become much more sensitive to emotional shifts and how things make me feel compared to when I don't meditate. The area it appeared most notably for me was in netflix shows I'd watch. I lost much of the enjoyment I'd once found in the violence and gore. I just had no stomach for it any more. Instead of it drawing me in to the show I just kept thinking "Why am I watching this? It's making me feel bad." Also interesting is after stopping meditating for a while some of that sensitivity went away and a, albeit limited, taste for violence returned.
coincidentally I am listening to a podcast my doctor recommended to listen to. it talks about the brain's dopamine homeostasis balancing in the brain. It doesn't relate to the ethics of violent images but it is a great discussion of how (sadly) the fun part of games and other behaviors can get us into an addiction of sorts.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-brain/id1028908750?i=1000621434290
side note as I listen: the practice that many newbuddhists have been talking about of very cold showers is mentioned towards the end of the podcast. As pushing too much on the pleasure side can result in pain/addictions... So too pushing on the pain side (though not in excess) things like exercise or meditation or sitting in cold or even ice water pushing on this pain side of the brain can adjust the brain to generally tip the teeter totter back to a better feeling pleasure.
I’ve just been revisiting this thread, there are a lot of good posts in it. It surprises me that it just took an invitation from my cousin to turn all the talk of game ethics on its head and suck me back in… Phew, close call.
I think you’re right though @person when you talk about the dangers of disaffected males. Society is not well structured as it is, I’ve just read Gabor Maté’s book The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture in which he talks about some of these things.
I think in a way those disaffected people still find much value in games, where they can be heroes and saviours of the common people. It’s one of the good things that games are still doing for society, keeping things from boiling over.
The thing is, does it turn into gaming addiction, with a lot of the accompanying symptoms of social isolation, long hours behind screens, poor diet and physical problems? That is also not an ideal way to live, and only a short distance to an opioid addiction.
For me it is what connects me to the spiritual path. The pursuit of truth, freedom and happiness is ultimately much more important than games. And even now, twelve years later, I still feel the effects of my breakdown back then, I’m not as healed as I thought, still more sensitive to a lot of things than I was when I was thirty.
Yes I noticed this even while watching CSI, which is not exactly that gory. But when you notice, “it is making me feel bad” it often takes an extended period of reflection to take action on it, it’s as if some parts of our decision making process are just very slow to register things.
It has just encouraged me to become even more selective in what tv I partake of. I can put up with a little gore or horror-tinged stuff, and then I will just switch off.
Ardent, diligent, and resolute.
Attempting to paraphrase something @how's said: The path to liberation is lined by many who've become distracted, stuck, given up along the way.
Lots of stories have the moment when a gate guard looks away, allowing an opportunity for events to unfold.
Initially a game like Baldurs Gate 3 calls on your goodness and willingness to help others, this sucks you into the path of combat and killing evil creatures, and on the other hand it addicts you to the cycle of “battle-excitement-killing-reward” which is conditioning that works on the dopamine pathways in the brain.
This is something that’s well expressed in the fantasy book series The Deeds of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon, which is about a paladin who is captured by Dark Elves and forced to fight in an underground arena, continually being healed by their dark magics and then fighting more, and on being rescued and recovering, finding that she can fight no more.
For me, the dopamine cycle is something I’m vulnerable to. Playing World of Warcraft was it in its purest form, but actually it was already present in Dungeon Master on the Atari ST back in 1988. In Baldur’s Gate 3 it is a bit slower because of the turn-based nature of the combat and the larger fights, four adventurers versus often a dozen opponents, but it’s still present.
That is the fine detail, on the larger scale you are doing quests and your reward for progress there is gaining story segments, advancing the plot of the game. This also puts a certain pressure on the player, because all of this rescuing of yourself and the world becomes your responsibility.
There is a progression in the story, initially it is about your own survival and helping others, then you unveil a plot to recreate an ancient cross-planar empire, and it becomes about a larger destiny. So the scope expands from “limited” to “epic”.
More questions?
Is life not like an Adventure game itself? Were we not all originally born with a blank mind? Is not the object of life to acquire the knowledge so that all of what we do and what we say is successful, works for us. When things work well are we not rewarded with feel good? And when we fail, and our doings and sayings are not working for us, are we not punished with feel bad? Is the object of life not to get passed failures and turn those into successes? Are there not winners and losers in this game?
If life is a game itself and games are fun, why not just play that one?
Pete.
In a crpg like Baldur’s Gate 3 you have a quest log which tracks the state of various elements of the story, which you don’t have in a table-top rpg. That is a pretty big difference in approach between the two, the ttrpg is organic and relies on memory, the crpg has rigid predetermined notes.
But the implementation of D&D 5th Edition in BG3 does show how much of the rules and also spells and items are concerned with combat. It is still the key element of play, and shows the heritage of the original rules as a tactical combat game, going back to Chainmail.
Its true that the majority of D&D's rules are centered around combat. My experience so far with different GMs has been a good mix between roleplay, exploration and combat. Currently I have one GM who's focus is mostly on story and character, her combats aren't all that challenging and rules are often bent or disregarded in favor of doing fun, cool things. The second is pretty balance between story and combat, the GM is good at being spontaneous and creative and 3 out of 4 players heavily invest in their character's stories and RP. For both of these groups I'm playing wizards right now that are more utility focused than blasting damage.
The third is actually a Pathfinder game and is primarily combat focused, its enter a room, fight some things, get the loot, heal, rinse and repeat. Little RP, its nerd bros cracking jokes and debating rules. Pathfinder is even more rule heavy than D&D. Its only been going 9 sessions so far and I'm just getting over my overwhelm at learning a new rules system, a new Virtual Table Top, a new group of players, and a new character class. I've been slowly able to let go of a focus on the rules and get descriptive and creative. I know at least one other player and seemingly the GM is interested a more immersive game, so we'll see what comes of it.
BG3 is built on the D&D rules system and video games so far are limited to linear programming, though they can be pretty complex these days. Personally in my TTRPG games I take notes to keep things clear on what and why we're doing things. It helps me with the RP of it all.
There are loads of other less combat oriented TTRPGs out there that are less popular and probably harder to find a good group. I'm not that familiar with them but a couple of the more well known combat light games are Call of Cthulu and Vampire the Masquerade.
I thought this was pretty funny…
It’s actually pretty clever, Polymorph’ing a monster with low Wisdom and so not much chance of making the saving throw. But it shows how something that might be a difficult combat encounter can be circumvented with a little luck and good play. It’s something that Larian Games disallowed in BG3 by reducing the duration of a lot of the better crowd-control spells, I read somewhere.
I’m actually finding these highlights of Critical Role to be a lot funnier and more accessible than the main series of episodes itself, which are a bit long. Winding down from engaging with BG3.
In there you also see the way combat encounters dominate the game, because they are worked out in so much detail compared to the in between and social time. I think it’s a natural consequence of the importance of life and death, that you want it to be mediated in detail with rules and dice rolls.
I like the way Matt Mercer treats critical successes and critical failures, it adds a lot of humour to the game, and the others play along with this in a fun way. It was all Ashley’s fault for rolling an 8.
I did find it interesting that in Baldur’s Gate 3 I watched most of an entire play through without the Cleric throwing a single heal. When healing was required this vlogger would start throwing potions, which kind of obviates the whole point of bringing a Cleric to the party. In Critical Role the Clerics most definitely did cast healing spells.
Healing in D&D doesn't work the same as in video games, you can't really outheal the damage. Time in combat slows way down to handle the minutia, but most combats only last 2 to 4 rounds (cycles through all the PCs and NPCs). Individual game sessions really vary in the amount of combat, some can be almost all combat while other times games can go a few sessions with little to no combat. I suspect the nature of clips vs complete sessions favors the combat, I'd say maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of their gameplay is combat, the majority is exploration and RP.
I missed the edit time. I would say the slower, more drawn out pace is part of what attracts me. It gives more time to process and think. It is a long time to invest though and I usually listen while I'm working, I too often lose patience when watching the stream at home, it isn't as engaging as TV, movies or video games.
The designers of 5th edition purposefully made it so parties don't have to be balanced and fit the MMORPG template of tank, healer, dps. People don't often want to be pigeon holed like that. Laura Bailey's character Jester in season 2 rarely cast healing spells, it was an ongoing joke that she was a cleric that never healed. Clerics (and other healing classes) have lots of other tools to help a party out in their bags.
It's so bold they wear their lives on their sleeves like that for the world to see. They play a character in each season but they also play themselves and their relationships with each other and that's such a revealing position to be in. I really envy their ability to just be out there like that for everyone to watch.
It’s true that with Guiding Bolt and Spirit Guardians Clerics can do pretty fair damage, and with spell slots you’re not really penalised for preparing both healing and damage and utility spells. Certainly BG3 shows that to pretty good effect.
But you can kind of see that without an MMORPG threat-style mechanism the whole idea of a tank doesn’t really work. It’s relatively easy for the whole party to maintain similar armour classes and so similar damage avoidance, which means you don’t really get glass cannons in the same way that you did in the old-style D&D, and so there is no need for monsters to focus their attacks.
Of course that does depend on the distribution of magic items in the game, which is something that the Dungeon Master controls. So in a way how important this is, and the need to spend actions on taunts like the Bear’s Goading Roar, is kinda up to him. The other thing that was clear from BG3 was the difference stealth makes for Wizards, hiding and staying unseen has become easier for non-rogues.
Yes, it’s something that you learn with the acting part of playing D&D, that you reveal more of yourself and you play with that. There is also a certain amount of buffoonery involved, you learn to make fun of yourself after a while. Starting out as someone with a rather introverted personality, this can make you more able to express yourself, if you see other people around you do it.
Yesterday I played a board game with my cousin and his family, the game was Ticket to Ride: Europe, it was at his home and I brought a large cake as a surprise for the family, which we ate together. The kids appreciated the whipped cream top but weren’t so enamoured of the cake base, to my surprise. We were busy from about 14.30 until 18.00, it was a long game.
As far as mindful playing was concerned, my familiarity with Ticket to Ride: USA allowed me to call on some familiar patterns, I know the trade-offs in this game well and could estimate the value of various strategies in terms of victory points pretty well. It occurs to me this is a purely mechanical process which is clearly defined, and so the mind derives a certain pleasure from the optimising of the play to achieve the maximum number of points.
Comparing that to a computer game like Baldur’s Gate 3, the CRPG has much greater emotional aspects to it. The characters with voice acting and romance scenes mean you form a certain attachment to them which draws you into doing their quests in the game. So on the one hand the mind is trying to optimise play, and on the other hand your emotions get involved dealing with the characters and villains.
Ultimately winning or losing comes down to a mastery of the mechanics, and I did a good job with that on the board game, and I managed to win the game over my cousin by around fifteen points or so, about 135 to 120. But I think in Baldur's Gate 3 it’s your emotional likes and dislikes that determine which quest lines you want to pursue, and so set up your “victory”.
The whole idea of an ultimate “victory” or resolution to the main player quest line in BG3 is also something that gives the mind a short-lived boost of pleasure, that was clear to me. Victory means status, acknowledgement of being the best, superior tactical insight. It’s an echo of ecstasy. But ultimately it is not fulfilment, it is instead the peak of the mind’s achievement.
I think that is something along the lines of what I concluded, without as much insight. These engrossing video games game that sort of constant boosts of reward, but ultimately left me feeling unfulfilled and drained.
This is why I've moved toward TTRPGs, I'd include board games in that too. They also offer some of that reward my mind enjoys around figuring systems out and mastery. Not that that is a part of the spiritual path, just that its something that I find enjoyable. What games that more directly interact with other people do is offer more in the way of real emotional connection rather than the illusiory computer generated ones. So far I've found that more fulfilling, I feel better after a session rather than worse.
I think the mind in general likes optimising and making good-value decisions, moving towards a goal, and in a game you find more of those and they are more clear-cut than in real life. Also the mind likes learning strategies and insights, it makes it feel it becomes more effective, better. It is part of what makes games appealing.
But in games these strategies and insights always have to do with points, goals, winning. It’s a very limited palette of mechanical motions.
Of course other people make the decision-making process more messy. But all table top games (whether they are rpgs or board games) share the experience of sitting around a table and interacting with your fellow players. Often there is a bit of banter, or just social chit-chat.
But it’s interesting that the insight into computer games is still trickling in, a week after I stopped watching the videos.
Emotional trust seems really important when playing with a group. The vulnerability of adding your personality to the performance knowing others may respond in harmful, playful, dismissive, or encouraging ways. I, my self, am quite sensitive to those responses. Maybe less sensitive to the way I respond to others.
My experience so far has been that people understand that its part of the game. The games I've been in have been pretty non judgmental spaces with other people who would like to do the same. You're playing with others who are on board, not a bunch of unaware normies. If you do find yourself in that sort of game, find another group.
I think those who can find such a group are very fortunate. To be both among and also one of those on board. Have you watched much of Critical Role @person? I'd be interested in your take on their dynamic. Even professionals such as them, I'm not sure it's always understood to be part of the game.
I have to say, it’s been my experience as well, @FleaMarket Role-playing groups tend to be made up of people who understand that it’s all part of the process, who have some connection to the idea of ‘play’ as an adult. It’s all fun and part of the game, and sometimes there’s a little joking around and you take that in your stride, sometimes people give you compliments on good play and saving the group, it varies.
There tends to be a process, a gradual opening up, when you join a role playing group. There is a bit of feeling your way, of gently trying things out as you get to know each other. Of course some things are left until later, and these are generally the more sensitive areas.
I just recently came across a famous incident in the history of Critical Role, that Joe Manganiello’s character Arkhan stole the Hand of Vecna (a well-known and very powerful evil artifact) from the group at the end of a campaign. This was accepted into canon D&D lore too…
It’s one of those things where to have an evil player character in the group can have consequences, but man, that was a plan that was long in the making, and very well executed. I’m not surprised it made him rather famous in certain circles. It certainly blew my mind.
I'll echo @Jeroen 's post, that people who play table top games, board and RPG, are on the more socially awkward side of the spectrum and tend to be pretty supportive and open. Though there are certainly awkward people there who don't get it, but they seem to be in the minority.
I listen to the podcast version while working usually. I listened to all of campaign 2 and am pretty much up to date on campaign 3. Regarding their dynamic, they're long time friends so there is plenty of good will built up, and my understanding of the acting/improv world is that in the process of experimentation and spontaneity sometimes lines are crossed, but its accepted that that can happen. I don't see much of it among them though.
Regarding your anxiety in general. Its usually better to take small steps and acclimate gradually, rather than just imagining yourself jumping right in and acting super outgoing. I've spent a lot of time gradually working my way out of social anxiety, probably worth a thread in itself, and have plenty more work to do. I can say that the standard go to strategy of hiding out and protecting oneself doesn't work in the long run and usually makes things worse, it reinforces to the brain that socializing is dangerous.
It’s certainly true that back in the days when I played Dungeons and Dragons with school and Uni buddies in the late 80’s and early 90’s it was very much a male nerdy pastime… it would go together with an interest in computers and technology, and a lot of the young guys who played were rather socially awkward, as was I, I just happened to be better at hiding it than most.
I don’t think that’s entirely true anymore though. YouTube shows like Critical Role are helping to repopularise the game, and it seems to be becoming a totally acceptable hobby, slanted a bit towards gamers and actors. Last time I played was in Amsterdam at a little mini convention a few years ago, and there was a good mixed crowd.
If you do want to open a thread on social anxiety @person I will certainly have a few posts to contribute, for me this has been an important limitation in my life which as little as 15 years ago I was still working actively to overcome. Now that I’m past 50 years of age it is no longer as urgent, but for me being social is like a muscle which atrophies with disuse, and if too much time passes without a lot of social activity I feel it becoming more of an effort.
But @FleaMarket it’s supposed to be fun, a safe environment in which you can try new things. Maybe you’d like to try it sometime?
I've tried with a few different friend groups over the years. Even got to DM for two single-day campaigns I constructed myself. It certainly can be fun, especially when the imagination is running strong. It also requires a lot of organization and demands full attention and probably most importantly, everyone else has to view it as a fun and safe environment in which we can try new things, and sort of be on the same page with what that means. As cool a game as it is, it requires a lot of stars to align for a considerable amount of time to work out. So yeah, possibly under certain conditions. Maybe sometime.
I wanted to reference this discussion here, because it is in part relevant.
https://newbuddhist.com/discussion/27441/feeling-like-you-are-a-good-person
Games have an element of challenge, which often manifests as conflict, and in computer games the player is often cast as “the good” while “the bad” is stage managed by the game. This can be formative on young people, it’s a form of conditioning if you play a lot of games at a certain age.
The players of Dungeons and Dragons on Death Row in Texas…
https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000630585709
It seems that even in prison they can’t take away the freedom of the imagination. It seems to be one of the few ways these guys can connect and share something of their lives and the things they struggle with, very touching story.
This thread having gone on so long I can see some patterns. You want to move past the heroics, imaginary killing, min/maxing, etc. in games. At the same time there is a solid draw in them for you.
Perhaps there is something in the games that strikes that chord in you that can be explored through a different medium? I think you have a building/structured side of yourself that maybe because of the environment you grew up in wasn't especially celebrated or encouraged? Maybe some sort of maker/crafting hobby could scratch that itch for understanding and manipulating systems? If you're concerned that that sort of behavior isn't spiritually conducive, I'd say there are practices for all temperaments. In my time in Tibetan Buddhism I've seen plenty of practices that might fit that mold, such as the detail involved in making sand mandalas.