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There are people who have kids because they believe in the world we live in. If there are some people who believe they should not have children because of the world we live in, does it not also follow that there may be people who do believe in the world? Is there something wrong with having hope for things to work out well?
Optimism may be an excellent reason for having children.
So, what is the reason you're positing for having a kid, exactly? "I believe in the world we live in and am optimisitic" is a non sequitur.
If you love your partner and are commited to the relationship, it is a natural possible outcome at some point. If you are in a sexual relationship over the long term it is normal possible outcome.
Why make a home? why go shopping for groceries?, Why build a life at all?
Yeah, that's the strongest reason not to have a kid. So many other people are doing it. The world doesn't need more of them.
I agree with you fivebells. If we made poor people realize that bringing in another mouth to feed wasn't going to solve their problems this world would be a better place. We're wasting so many resources as it is, it breaks my heart to see children born into suffering. Not only do they have to deal with the egoic consciousness but they also have to deal with battling real hardship. Starvation etc.. Because of ignorant parents.
Are you asking me what would constitute a valid reason for doing something?
No. You don't need a valid reason to have a child. But if you have valid reasons not to, then you shouldn't. Poverty, addiction, psychiatric problems, there is a long list.
So pessimism is the only valid attitude? It is not possible someone might actually believe their child might make the world a better place? Pretty bleak outlook.
So pessimism is the only valid attitude? It is not possible someone might actually believe their child might make the world a better place? Pretty bleak outlook.
A child does not need a reason to exist. Their value is unconditional.
It is not possible someone might actually believe their child might make the world a better place?
Well sure someone can believe that. The reasons for having them or not are completely subjective.
I personally don't want to have kids because the amount of cash, responsability, and time they demand. I think I am afraid to loose myself a bit in the process and become a parent instead of, well, me. :-\
I support the idea that a human birth is both precious and that it can mean exposure to Dhamma. This is a powerful idea in the face of what can seem a hostile environment that is full of suffering. I didn't have a child so that he could be exposed to dhamma, but I did feel (from an egocentric point of view) that I had something to offer a child and that the child could have something to offer the world. Just my role in the kammic cycle I guess!
I 've always got on really well with children of all ages
As a secondary school teacher I have had regular contact with children aged 11 upwards.- and even stayed in contact with some families after the pupils have left school and become young adults.
However, even though I'm a woman, I've never wanted to have children myself. The urge simply hasn't been there...ever. I've been married too and my late husband didn't have a need for children either.
I always felt that there were plenty of needy people in the world to whom I could give a little friendship and support, without me having to produce any more.
....Obviously, there's no way to know for sure but my personal theory is that most children in modern societies are born for two reasons:
1. "Accidents": usually, horny, young, and no protection. Often, Dad leaves, single Mom remains. Very common among poorer and/or less educated people. Of course, even well thought out contraception occasionally fails but many people do not believe in abortion so that's another kind of "accident".
2. Peer pressure, including from the Parents. Years and years of endless nagging from people can eventually do their job. I think parental pressure is especially effective: if you have strong relationship with your parents and they just expect something out of you, it takes a real struggle to say "no".
I know that people who become parents with the clear intention of doing so and out of their strong personal beliefs are out there, including on this very thread. I just don't think they're the majority.
Perhaps the above sounds a bit terse and isn't what we're traditionally led to believe, but realistically, I don't think I'm far from the truth. I think facts corraborate my view: the higher the level of education in a country, the lower its birth rate. When it's really up to the people whether or not to be parents, you end up with many fewer parents.
...I am a man nearing 30, married, and so far I don't want children. It seems stressful and complicated and I don't see why I'd want all that hardship in our lives. Looking at other people with kids hasn't proven inspiring to me either-- I see a lot of stress and a lot of dysfunctional families. To me, undergoing trouble without clear benefits, is irrational.
But maybe one of us will want a kid badly. Maybe there'll be an "accident". I'll deal with it when and if it comes, like with everything else in life. Only time we'll tell what may come out of it.
Yeah, that's the strongest reason not to have a kid. So many other people are doing it. The world doesn't need more of them.
Lucky for you, your parents evidently didn't think so!
I will probably be married in the next two years, and I plan on having many children. Four or five perhaps and maybe adopting an additional one. Why do I want children? Well, I guess part of it is a biological drive. I'd also love to just be able to raise children of my own and raise them like my parents raised me.
Is it selfish? I can't really see how. Raising kids at great financial expense and an investment of years worth of time does not exactly strike me as selfish.
If we made poor people realize that bringing in another mouth to feed wasn't going to solve their problems this world would be a better place. We're wasting so many resources as it is, it breaks my heart to see children born into suffering. Not only do they have to deal with the egoic consciousness but they also have to deal with battling real hardship. Starvation etc.. Because of ignorant parents.
This sounds extremely elitist to me. "Ah, you ignorant poor people. If only you knew what a drain on resources your children were for the greater community."
Just out of curiosity, are you a proponent of eugenics?
[quote=shadowleaver;91331
1. "Accidents": usually, horny, young, and no protection. Often, Dad leaves, single Mom remains. Very common among poorer and/or less educated people. Of course, even well thought out contraception occasionally fails but many people do not believe in abortion so that's another kind of "accident".
Perhaps the above sounds a bit terse and isn't what we're traditionally led to believe, but realistically, I don't think I'm far from the truth. I think facts corraborate my view: the higher the level of education in a country, the lower its birth rate. When it's really up to the people whether or not to be parents, you end up with many fewer parents.
...I am a man nearing 30, married, and so far I don't want children. It seems stressful and complicated and I don't see why I'd want all that hardship in our lives. Looking at other people with kids hasn't proven inspiring to me either-- I see a lot of stress and a lot of dysfunctional families. To me, undergoing trouble without clear benefits, is irrational.
[/quote]
I'm going to reply to this and then leave the thread because I find myself becoming really offended by some posters replies and cannot therefore continue conversing in a reasonable and unbiaised manner.
But I do wish to say this to you Shadow, you are so wrong with your #1 assumption (you know what they say about assuming right?) It is not only young horny people (men in particular that you've stereotyped here) who "knock up" a woman and then bugger off. Married men do it too. I ought to know, my (ex) husband up and left my daughter and I when she was 11 weeks old (on our wedding anniversary too - he always had a thing for timing). Being a single mum WAS hard, but not a life sentence or a modern day form of leprosy as many smug childless people like to think (and I'm not aiming that at you or anyone on this thread). I have remarried and my husband and daughter adore each other. Yes we are very blessed and in the minority, but I take exception to your projected attitude towards single mothers.
I truly do hope with your current attitude that you do not have children. They would be able to tell they were not particulary valued or wanted. But the most offensive thing you just said (IMO) is that you view parenthood as undergoing trouble without clear benefits. Parenthood is not a transaction with instant gratification or results. Parenthood IS a hard job, but I see benefits from my parenting experience every single day. My daughter smiling because she's happy, has learnt something new about the world, sleeping peacefully or cuddling me impulsively because she feels like it are immense benefits to me.
Perhaps you will just shake your head at me and think I'm ignorant or stupid, and you know what, that's ok. But please don't assume that parenting - or the decision to become one or not - is a black and white, easily definable thing.
i wouldn't say selfish, but it may be a better option to adopt children even when you're able to conceive, when there are many perfectly wonderful children without a family you know, though i shouldn't be talking cause i've already gotten 32 women pregnant this year, but it's the man's words not the man himself that one must consider
This sounds extremely elitist to me. "Ah, you ignorant poor people. If only you knew what a drain on resources your children were for the greater community."
What he said is related to my post about parents having kids for government aid here. They are not ignorant about it. They KNOW they will get the benefits. They PLAN on having kids because of the benefits, some of them stop working because of the benefits.
The government knows that, because when it is election year, they spook people by saying "oh, the other party will extinguish the benefits" or by saying they will raise the value and things like that, so these people end up voting in a given party because of the benefits.
Their kids will grow up to do the same. Why? Here there are NO good schools for people of low economic standards, but everybody does vote. So its more mindless votes from people who are condemned to a life of poverty, because they are guaranteed to NOT having the necessary education to live a different life.
The biggest problem of these people is that they are unaware of the shitty situation they live in. They think it is so cool. Happiness is having a plate of food, some beer, and some partying. Nevermind that they get treated like crap in public hospitals, which lack doctors and medicine, nevermind that their kids have no education, nevermind that they have no possibility to earn a better living, nevermind they are living in shanty houses without basic sanitation, as long as they are getting by they are fine.
Oh, and by the way, I would say that this is selfish parenting.
It is wonderful that you find meaning and joy in being a parent.
I am very sorry that my post offended you. I think you've gone through a lot and suffered a lot in your family life. Not being a parent myself I cannot possibly understand your feelings and probably my post came across as insensitive.
Well, rest assured I've nothing against parents, single Moms or children. I'm only trying to make sense of what I see around me and where I come in. I'm far from being done.
Therefore, no hard feelings, eh? And best of luck to you.
It is wonderful that you find meaning and joy in being a parent.
I am very sorry that my post offended you. I think you've gone through a lot and suffered a lot in your family life. Not being a parent myself I cannot possibly understand your feelings and probably my post came across as insensitive.
Well, rest assured I've nothing against parents, single Moms or children. I'm only trying to make sense of what I see around me and where I come in. I'm far from being done.
Therefore, no hard feelings, eh? And best of luck to you.
Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate it.
No hard feelings at all. I am still going to take leave of the thread, not because of you please be assured of that. But I still think I cannot be neutral and impartial on this topic and therefore not add anything meaningful or helpful to the discussion. Thanks for tolerating my earlier post.
I think that it is great to have kids and nothing wrong their. Still I think it is flat out WRONG for parents to put pressure on their children to have grand babies. Its equally wrong as putting pressure on your kid to repeat your career path.
This says it all about the attitudes on this thread. Its all about self fullfilment.
You kids go and do your thing. Go to nirvana. Its the best.
I shoudnt pick on your post Jeffery but it does sum things up. Why do so many people who are not parents and dont want to be parents, see parenting only in terms of self centered fullfiflment? And why is the tone so often of that petulant "your not the boss of me" kind?
I think that it is great to have kids and nothing wrong their. Still I think it is flat out WRONG for parents to put pressure on their children to have grand babies.
You know, I'm getting a little better these days at seeing the world in terms of causes and effects, and less as right and wrong.
My observation has been that it's a craving, and a sense that time is running out. Parents of most married couples are (generally) no longer spring chickens; they have a desire to see what the next generation is going to be like...and in some cases perhaps even a second chance to be a fun-loving parental figure to another set of kids. I suspect that they even see their peers having fun with grandkids, and this adds to it.
Given this, I think that they mean no ill-will or harm with the pressure that they may put on; they just want to be in on it while they are still present and able.
It's not all baseless fear; my father got to see both of my kids be born, and then died of liver cancer before my youngest turned 3. It's their loss; my father was a truly wise and kind-hearted man.
It depends how open and receptive the parent is. I have been in chatrooms where someone said that it was bad to have... I forget I think it was handicapped? child because that person wouldn't produce grandbabies. When I heard that it really upset me that this person sees essentially no worth in a person unless they have offspring. I found it very ignorant and narrow.
So no its not wrong to ask your kids about grand babies. Just as it is not wrong to suggest they become a doctor. But if the kid says no I think its wrong to not let your kids make their own decisions. And you just got to let it go.
Well. Not "not the boss of me", but for sure I confess a certain fed-upness with some of the stuff being posted around having children. The reasons for not to having children can, and often are just as full of narcissism and delusion as the reasons people give to have children. The usual moral talk of overpopulation, and not burdening the planet is mostly a convenient cover for not wanting to give up your own life, which is fair enough. On the other hand we've all probably known people who are breeders, with a real baby fetish, and any number of selfish reasons for having kids. There is nothing more annoying than sitting in a coffee shop watching a parent indulge a demanding child and expecting every one to appreciate his charms. It's interesting, these are the very generations that are growing up to feel entitled to a satisfying life above all, and choosing not have kids more than ever before.
When my kid was born his death was all over him. At 27 weeks he was supposed to be inside the womb not getting painful shunts and doses of experimental drugs. His heart would just stop beating ( a "bradi") and he would die. Then they would jolt him alive again. It could be because we are Buddhists but every parent we know is keenly aware of their childs mortality, and one couple has watched their child die.
Whatever the reason people give for having children, whether it is a stupid reason, a selfish reason, a social expectation, or an accident. Most people realize pretty quickly that any reason is eclipsed by a huge reponsibility that trumps your life. Its good Dharma.
Well, whatever the reasons for having children are, they're horrible reasons so we should all just let the human race go extinct, because people are horrible.
Well... that is, except for me, of course I sure am glad I was born, but oh no, all those other poor idiots why do they ever?
NO seriously, I detect a lot of armchair enthusiasts, haha, myself included. I actually totally respect survival, accident or no, we're here... helloo!
Whatever the reason people give for having children, whether it is a stupid reason, a selfish reason, a social expectation, or an accident. Most people realize pretty quickly that any reason is eclipsed by a huge reponsibility that trumps your life. Its good Dharma.
Yes, people who have kids have a duty to care for them, and should be applauded for doing so. It's the reasons people give for having kids which always seem to be bankrupt. "It was an accident" is honest. "I want to continue the survival of the species" is not.
When I was around 20 years old I felt like I never wanted children. As I've grown older that feeling has only strengthened. Luckily my wife feels no desire to have children ether. And we've made sure that an accident will not happen. I could list my reasons why, but they're all self-centered and narcissistic.
Is it possible survival instinct and reproduction are more ingrained and deep than we are able to understand in some of us?
My kids were an accident (twins so it only happened once) and there were severe problems in my marriage. Once my now ex wife had become pregnant, I could not think of walking away as had the fathers of her other children. Something inside of me made me stay. It was a challenge but I now cannot think of life without them. Over the course of time and through much learning and determination, I have come to be more loving and kind with my ex so even that has improved.
It is like life in general, things are not perfect and my motives were not perfect but what came out of it was a family unit where people do care about eachother, love eachother and work together towards a valued life.
Like anything, the best laid plans of mice and men, are seldom perfect. Reality has a way of bringing our attention back to the truth. What you do with reality has more to do with suffering in this world than theories about population explosion. It is possible more children will add to the burden on this world, but it is also possible another child will be able to contribute to relieve burdens on this world. It is possible that the more enlightened people there are, the more opportunity to make changes. They may choose not to propogate, or they may help more and more people become enlightened. Just as a for instance, what if one person was able to influence thousands of people not to propogate, would their life then have been a gift to mankind rather than a burden? Judgement becomes easy when we think in these terms.
It would also have been possible years ago to pass austere dictums where people didn't have children at all. They could have even been passed prior to the Buddha and there may not have been any such thing as Buddhism. What would that have done to the course of the world?
The fact is, people are going to continue to be born. You can let that fact cause you suffering, or you can accept it as fact and do your best to help.
what has to be done:
be mindful that anything and everything is impermanent, suffering and non-self
be with loving-kindness/compassion/sympathetic joy/equanimity mind
by posting
""this is never going to happen but for the argument sake
how about all women decide not to give birth
then
what would happen to poor sentient beings who are less than human beings? ""
indicated that upekka has not done what has to be done
in other words that post is one out of the '32 unskilful talks' which invited for frivolous talks
Dude, even roaches have kids, it's not like they are a miracle.
(hides from the stones )
It just aint right to call your mother a Roach. She was probably wonderful:p.
It's true. My partner, who is an artist, used to get so fed-up of people telling her that having a child was her greatest creation. She said she wasn't doing anything. It required no skill or virtue on her part at all. After giving birth its another matter.
Motherhood, a job that even a roach could do. :eek:
Just imagine how someone who has dedicated their lives to their children would feel knowing insects qualify for the job.
I wonder if it is easy to overlook the contributions others make when we know we will never have to, and in some cases never choose to do so as well.
I think that perhaps Nameless was referring to the common line of thought that procreation itself is a miracle. At least that's not I took it. I'm inclined to agree. There's nothing miraculous about conceiving a child. Now raising that child to be a well-adjusted, functional adult - that's the real miracle.
Comments
Being a parent is not inherently superior to not being a parent, or vise versa. I think we can all agree on that.
......if you know whats good for ya
There are people who have kids because they believe in the world we live in. If there are some people who believe they should not have children because of the world we live in, does it not also follow that there may be people who do believe in the world? Is there something wrong with having hope for things to work out well?
Optimism may be an excellent reason for having children.
Why make a home? why go shopping for groceries?, Why build a life at all?
Where I live poor people have kids to get money from the government :P
I agree with you fivebells. If we made poor people realize that bringing in another mouth to feed wasn't going to solve their problems this world would be a better place. We're wasting so many resources as it is, it breaks my heart to see children born into suffering. Not only do they have to deal with the egoic consciousness but they also have to deal with battling real hardship. Starvation etc.. Because of ignorant parents.
Well sure someone can believe that. The reasons for having them or not are completely subjective.
I personally don't want to have kids because the amount of cash, responsability, and time they demand. I think I am afraid to loose myself a bit in the process and become a parent instead of, well, me. :-\
But to give my answer to your question, I personally have never had the inclination.
I cannot ever recall having a thought to have children.
When I turned 22, my mind formed the view that relationships are about commitment & eventually having a family.
Since that day, I stopped having sex & have not had any intentional sexual desire.
So I suppose having children was never a tendency in my underlying personal nature.
But that is just an individual thing.
I think if children have some dhamma, they are very fortunate.
When one has dhamma, the world is not so scary.
I 've always got on really well with children of all ages
As a secondary school teacher I have had regular contact with children aged 11 upwards.- and even stayed in contact with some families after the pupils have left school and become young adults.
However, even though I'm a woman, I've never wanted to have children myself. The urge simply hasn't been there...ever. I've been married too and my late husband didn't have a need for children either.
I always felt that there were plenty of needy people in the world to whom I could give a little friendship and support, without me having to produce any more.
.
_/\_
....Obviously, there's no way to know for sure but my personal theory is that most children in modern societies are born for two reasons:
1. "Accidents": usually, horny, young, and no protection. Often, Dad leaves, single Mom remains. Very common among poorer and/or less educated people. Of course, even well thought out contraception occasionally fails but many people do not believe in abortion so that's another kind of "accident".
2. Peer pressure, including from the Parents. Years and years of endless nagging from people can eventually do their job. I think parental pressure is especially effective: if you have strong relationship with your parents and they just expect something out of you, it takes a real struggle to say "no".
I know that people who become parents with the clear intention of doing so and out of their strong personal beliefs are out there, including on this very thread. I just don't think they're the majority.
Perhaps the above sounds a bit terse and isn't what we're traditionally led to believe, but realistically, I don't think I'm far from the truth. I think facts corraborate my view: the higher the level of education in a country, the lower its birth rate. When it's really up to the people whether or not to be parents, you end up with many fewer parents.
...I am a man nearing 30, married, and so far I don't want children. It seems stressful and complicated and I don't see why I'd want all that hardship in our lives. Looking at other people with kids hasn't proven inspiring to me either-- I see a lot of stress and a lot of dysfunctional families. To me, undergoing trouble without clear benefits, is irrational.
But maybe one of us will want a kid badly. Maybe there'll be an "accident". I'll deal with it when and if it comes, like with everything else in life. Only time we'll tell what may come out of it.
Lucky for you, your parents evidently didn't think so!
I will probably be married in the next two years, and I plan on having many children. Four or five perhaps and maybe adopting an additional one. Why do I want children? Well, I guess part of it is a biological drive. I'd also love to just be able to raise children of my own and raise them like my parents raised me.
Is it selfish? I can't really see how. Raising kids at great financial expense and an investment of years worth of time does not exactly strike me as selfish.
This sounds extremely elitist to me. "Ah, you ignorant poor people. If only you knew what a drain on resources your children were for the greater community."
Just out of curiosity, are you a proponent of eugenics?
1. "Accidents": usually, horny, young, and no protection. Often, Dad leaves, single Mom remains. Very common among poorer and/or less educated people. Of course, even well thought out contraception occasionally fails but many people do not believe in abortion so that's another kind of "accident".
Perhaps the above sounds a bit terse and isn't what we're traditionally led to believe, but realistically, I don't think I'm far from the truth. I think facts corraborate my view: the higher the level of education in a country, the lower its birth rate. When it's really up to the people whether or not to be parents, you end up with many fewer parents.
...I am a man nearing 30, married, and so far I don't want children. It seems stressful and complicated and I don't see why I'd want all that hardship in our lives. Looking at other people with kids hasn't proven inspiring to me either-- I see a lot of stress and a lot of dysfunctional families. To me, undergoing trouble without clear benefits, is irrational.
[/quote]
I'm going to reply to this and then leave the thread because I find myself becoming really offended by some posters replies and cannot therefore continue conversing in a reasonable and unbiaised manner.
But I do wish to say this to you Shadow, you are so wrong with your #1 assumption (you know what they say about assuming right?) It is not only young horny people (men in particular that you've stereotyped here) who "knock up" a woman and then bugger off. Married men do it too. I ought to know, my (ex) husband up and left my daughter and I when she was 11 weeks old (on our wedding anniversary too - he always had a thing for timing). Being a single mum WAS hard, but not a life sentence or a modern day form of leprosy as many smug childless people like to think (and I'm not aiming that at you or anyone on this thread). I have remarried and my husband and daughter adore each other. Yes we are very blessed and in the minority, but I take exception to your projected attitude towards single mothers.
I truly do hope with your current attitude that you do not have children. They would be able to tell they were not particulary valued or wanted. But the most offensive thing you just said (IMO) is that you view parenthood as undergoing trouble without clear benefits. Parenthood is not a transaction with instant gratification or results. Parenthood IS a hard job, but I see benefits from my parenting experience every single day. My daughter smiling because she's happy, has learnt something new about the world, sleeping peacefully or cuddling me impulsively because she feels like it are immense benefits to me.
Perhaps you will just shake your head at me and think I'm ignorant or stupid, and you know what, that's ok. But please don't assume that parenting - or the decision to become one or not - is a black and white, easily definable thing.
Because it's really not.
Respectfully,
Raven
The government knows that, because when it is election year, they spook people by saying "oh, the other party will extinguish the benefits" or by saying they will raise the value and things like that, so these people end up voting in a given party because of the benefits.
Their kids will grow up to do the same. Why? Here there are NO good schools for people of low economic standards, but everybody does vote. So its more mindless votes from people who are condemned to a life of poverty, because they are guaranteed to NOT having the necessary education to live a different life.
The biggest problem of these people is that they are unaware of the shitty situation they live in. They think it is so cool. Happiness is having a plate of food, some beer, and some partying. Nevermind that they get treated like crap in public hospitals, which lack doctors and medicine, nevermind that their kids have no education, nevermind that they have no possibility to earn a better living, nevermind they are living in shanty houses without basic sanitation, as long as they are getting by they are fine.
Oh, and by the way, I would say that this is selfish parenting.
It is wonderful that you find meaning and joy in being a parent.
I am very sorry that my post offended you. I think you've gone through a lot and suffered a lot in your family life. Not being a parent myself I cannot possibly understand your feelings and probably my post came across as insensitive.
Well, rest assured I've nothing against parents, single Moms or children. I'm only trying to make sense of what I see around me and where I come in. I'm far from being done.
Therefore, no hard feelings, eh? And best of luck to you.
Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate it.
No hard feelings at all. I am still going to take leave of the thread, not because of you please be assured of that. But I still think I cannot be neutral and impartial on this topic and therefore not add anything meaningful or helpful to the discussion. Thanks for tolerating my earlier post.
Respectfully,
Raven
You kids go and do your thing. Go to nirvana. Its the best.
I shoudnt pick on your post Jeffery but it does sum things up. Why do so many people who are not parents and dont want to be parents, see parenting only in terms of self centered fullfiflment? And why is the tone so often of that petulant "your not the boss of me" kind?
You know, I'm getting a little better these days at seeing the world in terms of causes and effects, and less as right and wrong.
My observation has been that it's a craving, and a sense that time is running out. Parents of most married couples are (generally) no longer spring chickens; they have a desire to see what the next generation is going to be like...and in some cases perhaps even a second chance to be a fun-loving parental figure to another set of kids. I suspect that they even see their peers having fun with grandkids, and this adds to it.
Given this, I think that they mean no ill-will or harm with the pressure that they may put on; they just want to be in on it while they are still present and able.
It's not all baseless fear; my father got to see both of my kids be born, and then died of liver cancer before my youngest turned 3. It's their loss; my father was a truly wise and kind-hearted man.
So no its not wrong to ask your kids about grand babies. Just as it is not wrong to suggest they become a doctor. But if the kid says no I think its wrong to not let your kids make their own decisions. And you just got to let it go.
When my kid was born his death was all over him. At 27 weeks he was supposed to be inside the womb not getting painful shunts and doses of experimental drugs. His heart would just stop beating ( a "bradi") and he would die. Then they would jolt him alive again. It could be because we are Buddhists but every parent we know is keenly aware of their childs mortality, and one couple has watched their child die.
Whatever the reason people give for having children, whether it is a stupid reason, a selfish reason, a social expectation, or an accident. Most people realize pretty quickly that any reason is eclipsed by a huge reponsibility that trumps your life. Its good Dharma.
Well... that is, except for me, of course I sure am glad I was born, but oh no, all those other poor idiots why do they ever?
NO seriously, I detect a lot of armchair enthusiasts, haha, myself included. I actually totally respect survival, accident or no, we're here... helloo!
how about all women decide not to give birth
then
what would happen to poor sentient beings who are less than human beings?
My kids were an accident (twins so it only happened once) and there were severe problems in my marriage. Once my now ex wife had become pregnant, I could not think of walking away as had the fathers of her other children. Something inside of me made me stay. It was a challenge but I now cannot think of life without them. Over the course of time and through much learning and determination, I have come to be more loving and kind with my ex so even that has improved.
It is like life in general, things are not perfect and my motives were not perfect but what came out of it was a family unit where people do care about eachother, love eachother and work together towards a valued life.
Like anything, the best laid plans of mice and men, are seldom perfect. Reality has a way of bringing our attention back to the truth. What you do with reality has more to do with suffering in this world than theories about population explosion. It is possible more children will add to the burden on this world, but it is also possible another child will be able to contribute to relieve burdens on this world. It is possible that the more enlightened people there are, the more opportunity to make changes. They may choose not to propogate, or they may help more and more people become enlightened. Just as a for instance, what if one person was able to influence thousands of people not to propogate, would their life then have been a gift to mankind rather than a burden? Judgement becomes easy when we think in these terms.
It would also have been possible years ago to pass austere dictums where people didn't have children at all. They could have even been passed prior to the Buddha and there may not have been any such thing as Buddhism. What would that have done to the course of the world?
The fact is, people are going to continue to be born. You can let that fact cause you suffering, or you can accept it as fact and do your best to help.
Why ponder that which is unanswerable?
sure sign that one can not say 'one has done what has to be done':p
?:-/
(hides from the stones
be mindful that anything and everything is impermanent, suffering and non-self
be with loving-kindness/compassion/sympathetic joy/equanimity mind
by posting
""this is never going to happen but for the argument sake
how about all women decide not to give birth
then
what would happen to poor sentient beings who are less than human beings? ""
indicated that upekka has not done what has to be done
in other words that post is one out of the '32 unskilful talks' which invited for frivolous talks
the best thing we have now is
Let Go of it
It's true. My partner, who is an artist, used to get so fed-up of people telling her that having a child was her greatest creation. She said she wasn't doing anything. It required no skill or virtue on her part at all. After giving birth its another matter.
Just imagine how someone who has dedicated their lives to their children would feel knowing insects qualify for the job.
I wonder if it is easy to overlook the contributions others make when we know we will never have to, and in some cases never choose to do so as well.
I think that perhaps Nameless was referring to the common line of thought that procreation itself is a miracle. At least that's not I took it. I'm inclined to agree. There's nothing miraculous about conceiving a child. Now raising that child to be a well-adjusted, functional adult - that's the real miracle.
Of course, your mother was a roach - when you were a roach! Hopefully she didn't eat you...
Palzang