Questions about zen
followthepath
Explorer
Hello everyone. I am a new Buddhist and I was introduced to Zen by a member on this forum. I asked how I can determine which actions are skillful versus unskillful and this was the member's response:
"On a practical level, you're making the mistake my old Zen Teacher Young called "checking".
You're trying to check the motives of your actions, and that's an impossible task. I want to do something, but am I acting from selfish or unselfish motivation? If I have a few dollars in the bank, am I being selfish for not giving it to the needy? If I give something to the needy but enjoy it and I'm doing it to get good karma, am I being selfish?
You cannot divide your actions into selfish and nonselfish, or skillful and nonskillful, and always do one and not the other. Motivations in reality are not pure. They are a mix. Likewise the results of your actions, even well meaning, are mixed. You only tie your mind into knots by thinking you can anticipate what you should or should not do this way. That's checking.
As you learn to keep a calm mind and realize you are not your thoughts and not slave to your emotions, you will stop acting out of emotions like anger or jealousy. The meditation and calm mind has to come first. When you practice compassion then acting to hurt others out of selfish desire will stop. The compassion has to come first."
Ever since I read the message above, I've become interested in Zen. However, Zen is very confusing to me. From what I've read, there are no goals in Zen. But if that's true, how come some Zen practitioners follow the five precepts of Buddhism? Isn't striving to follow the five precepts a goal?
I really have a poor understanding of Zen. Is the basis of Zen Buddhism that if one meditates and strives to be mindful all the time they will realize Enlightenment? By the way, meditation and mindfulness sound like goals to me.
If anyone can point me in the direction of learning about Zen, I'd be very grateful.
Comments
Welcome @followthepath.
"Zen" is a corruption of the Sanskrit (I believe) word meaning meditation. In Zen, meditation means sit down, erect the spine, shut up, sit still, and focus the mind. In this activity, you are likely to find that the precepts keep themselves. Not all at once, perhaps, but bit by bit. No need to be a "Buddhist." The precepts are simply what makes best sense.
Or maybe not. Sit down, focus the mind and find out. Goal or no goal ... find out.
Did you require a picture of a cushion?
Oooh I iz so zen 
It always amazes me when I find someone who can complicate things on par with me. Well done!
Meditation and mindfulness are tools, as I understand them. Not goals unto themselves. They are examples of the finger pointing at the moon.
@followthepath
I bet, every day of practice could offer you a different answer to your questions.
Today, for me....
Zen is simply a diet program for any sense gate (eye/ear/nose/tongue/body & mind)
that is disproportionately throwing it's weight around.
The point of this diet program is to take your garden variety sense gate grouping that has become hierarchical in nature (mind as supreme ruler) and offer it a state of collegiality where all the sense gates can have an equal voice.
For most of us Zennies, like most other Buddhist tribes, our practice is just about developing a greater priority towards manifesting compassion, love and wisdom than
our former expressions of greed, hate and delusion.
For 42 years, I have practiced Soto Zen.
Sometimes with striving & goals and sometimes with nothing.
Everyday brings me less to know than I did the day before,
but the knowledge that seems to stay is that
the less that this practice is about me,
the more it seems to be about Zen.
Yes, dhyana became Chan which became Zen.
Heh. I'm glad to know you're still hanging out and doing OK. My fellow Zennies know as I do that talking about Zen is not the same as walking the path. We all started with just as many questions and received the same confusing non-answers.
Zen is "transmission outside of scripture". It's realizing that you can memorize and expound on every word Buddha said, be able to chant the Lotus Sutra on demand...and still be a miserable mess because your neighbor bought that new car you can't afford. Zen says it's useless unless you sit down and force yourself to change how your mind works.
Zen is "nothing special". It's a practical, no-nonsense, get your mind out of the clouds and focus on what you're doing right now type of practice. You heard the sound of one hand clapping? Good for you, Skippy. Now learn the sound of washing those dirty dishes.
When I started half a lifetime ago, I thought I had it figured out. I'm not stupid. Then after ten years or so, I realized I was starting to figure it out and I wasn't as smart as I thought I was. Only now am I realizing the trick that was played on my mind. There's nothing to figure out! It's all right there on the label. Sit down, be quiet, until it's time to stand up and be noisy. Do both with the same effort and mindfulness. Somewhere in there, in doing the most mundane things, the magic happens.
@followthepath Thank you for posting this. I'm always a bit scared to ask questions like this one, but I very sincerely appreciate your courage. I have learned much from this thread, as well.
@RuddyDuck9 it pains me to know you're a 'bit scared of asking questions like this one' because I know we try to convey benign feelings and welcome even the most basic questions, which I have to say, get asked over and over again, with gay abandon.... and we always answer.
Please never be afraid of asking anything here. There are many "helping hands" all willing to offer support, responses and assistance for everything you may need....
I will immediately say I closed a thread by @Benjamin, a newbie, who asked about favourite reading matter, but that was because a long thread already exists and is "stickied" and I held that most, if not all of the responses would merely have been repeating the same information as in the linked thread I offered.... It wasn't done through any impatience, exasperation or annoyance....At all.
His question was strictly specific; most new members have questions pertaining to matters relating to their own experiences, and are therefore meritorious of attention and response... we are always ready to help.
@federica this insecurity is of my own creation. I often cut myself off out of fear... don't we all? I must say, this forum is likely the best outlet I have for information, community, and friendship with other followers of the way. I love it here!
I merely meant to say that I feel it my responsibility to study a bit more before I begin asking silly questions which could easily be answered in a podcast or "zen for dummies" or something.
I respect the treasure trove of knowledge you all represent and want to do it justice! Thank you for making me feel immediately welcome here, from day 1. 
It helps to remember that if you ask what you consider a "dumb" question, there will always be someone to read it and thank god there is someone as "dumb" as they are.
Favourite dumb koans:
Number 1 is too avant garde and noisy for my liking.
2, when I say so.
Sadly, I'm old enough to answer number 3.... The Liver Birds...
4 - I honestly think nobody knows an answer to that one....
Thanks @federica
Further commentary:
As the dogs were never in
Who can let them out?
Who? Who?
Say when?
Enough?
Enough said.
Normal service is now resumed ...
Why bother to practice Zen, if at the heart of the matter there’s nothing to gain?
That’s not a bad question at all.
I think there’s no progress in covering the problem up as a mysterious koan or in ignoring it and hoping it will go away after enough years of serious practice.
It won’t. It’s simply a very good question.
It is better to be ruthlessly clear about that.
imho
Cool. Nothing worse than a rich understanding of Zen.
In other words, like a dervish, belong to the poor.
The 'oi dunno' mind is not a pose but a constant beginning, rather than 'progress'.
If you've lost focus, just sit down and be still. Take the idea and rock it to and fro. Keep some of it and throw some away, and it will renew itself. You need do no more. Clarissa Pinkola Estes
To stop trying to gain something.
...Or to stop trying to stop trying....
Or, to stop trying, to stop trying to stop trying!
Or to....
.....I forget what we're remembering......
How very 'Zen'...!
Oi dunno.
I guess one could say Zen is just being .....whatever.....whenever...however....wherever the dice falls so be 'it' ....
This short intro by Shunryu Suzuki might be of some help...
I agree, Zen is VERY confusing to read about. It's pretty awful actually, and yet it is so beautifully simple (yet difficult) to practice. My advice is to forget all the nonsense you may have read, it will usually just make you more confused. Remember, Zen is a teaching outside the Buddhist scriptures. You can't get it from reading, it has to be through practice.
So how do you practice it? The best way is to sit in meditation for 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the evening, and find a good Zen center if you can in your city. The rest will fall into place....eventually. It's a lifelong path. Returning to your breath is always wise in annoying or stressful situations. And try to live a compassionate life, especially in regards to eating poor, tortured and murdered sentient beings. Respect the earth and yourself despite your flaws. And if you do find a clear and concise book, read it, but it is in the practice of each and every moment that the truth is revealed to us. Hard to get there when we're running around in our heads 24/7, or so full of what we have read and our own opinions that there is no room for the truth.