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Interesting how, while the Buddha accepts Angulimala and even the King too his transformation from a killer to a bhikkhu, Angulimala is still subject to the kamma of his criminal actions that inevitably lead to his gruesome death.

The Buddha says to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!". Angulimala does not retaliate nor curse, he accepts it and thus released from samsara.

When I talk about providing sessions to prisoners, one important aspect is their acceptance of the deed they committed and the cost society has imposed on them: you murdered, you indeed did a wrong thing. But this should not become a source of eternal anguish or torment, you should ask for forgiveness and acceptance of your misdoing but also accept that the people you hurt might not forgive you and this is the result of your actions. What you do from now on is essential not only for your own well-being, but perhaps even for the well-being of others too.

Thanks for the sutta @Jason

The Buddha generally seemed to leave questions like this to civil authorities, and would likely be viewed as a consequence of their unskillful actions. There definitely does seem to be an acknowledgement of a person's capacity to change, though, and the Buddha accepted people who were murderers into the Sangha (e.g., Angulimala). So I think there's also room for things like restorative justice. But in general, long jail times for seriously violent crimes doesn't seem particularly anti-Buddhist in and of itself.

I know that my current take it at odds with Buddhism in many ways, and it may not be the case that nibbana/awakening isn't just the cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion and experience, but the experience of something underlying it or beyond it. There are certainly many good objections to this based on teachings in the Pali Canon, and there are numerous ways to answer them. However, I personally think that this POV makes the most sense when viewed from a Spinozan POV if his Substance = consciousness, not unlike in some Mind-only traditions or Brahman in Vedanta.

In his Ethics, Spinoza reasons the underlying unity of existence in a radical way, which isn't something that's easily experienceable or obvious, but which is a perception that can be reasoned and which has effects on how we perceive, experience, and relate to any of the conditioned phenomena we come into contact with, including other beings and our own emotions. I see in his God Nature, or Substance (and much of the Buddha's Dhamma+nibbana) the same concept as Thich Nhat Hanh's interbeing or Paul Tillich's ground of existence due to his arguments about the singularity of the Substance.

Spinoza argues that there's ultimately one Substance, that this Substance is infinite, and that it has infinite attributes. The infinite attributes, as far as I currently understand it, ties into the existence of conditioned phenomena itself and how we can have a causally deterministic world that itself is part of a singular, infinite whole. It's very much like the metaphysics of quantum mechanics and uncertainty and probabilities vs. our level of experiences and observations. And eventually, his reasoning seems to lead to a Buddhist or even Stoic-like psychology and sense of equanimity.

So in my panentheistic reading, if my understanding of Spinoza is accurate:

Substance = self-existing, being/ground of being.

Attributes = the ways intellect perceive Substance, which, while infinite, are limited to 2 knowables in human experience: thought and extension, mind and body. That said, God, Nature, Substance isn't limited to those and can be said to be both immanent and transcendent as well as outside of space and time, the latter of which falling into the realm of attributes and modes/modification (i.e., samsara).

Mode/modification = conditioned phenomena, affected by causes and conditions, modes of Substance that make up the variety of finite things in the universe and what's experienced of it via thought and extension.

Furthermore, if we allow that the fundamental nature of Spinoza's God, Nature, Substance, or whatever else we want to call it doesn't necessarily have to be material but immaterial or neither material nor nonmaterial (a la neutral monism), then his God, Nature, Substance can certainly lead into panentheistic territory (our conditioned world+something beyond it, which we can label the absolute, the transcendent, ultimate reality, etc). And if Substance = consciousness, then it's ultimately just Substance realizing its own nature via its modes/modifications, with various sentient beings having various levels of conscious experience. And whereas Spinoza argues you can reason this ultimate reality/unity, perhaps what the Buddha is suggesting is that you can actually experience it.

Then again, my views may change yet again, but I'm very much swayed by the experience of others and the possibility of touching or experiencing something profound and beyond the range of logical thinking and human language. It may just be wishful thinking on my part and an unconscious aversion to death and nonexistence. But you never know and I think it's worth being open-minded about.

Thanks @shoshin1 you are not wrong…

Once Osho was asked “do we live on beyond death?” He replied, “Perhaps you should try living this life first.” It makes good sense to focus on living deeply first, if you haven’t really been alive why worry about death?

Another one of my uncles is currently dying of cancer, the doctors have told him they can’t do anything further for him. His wife is very upset, he may just have weeks or at most a few months to live. She had hoped that he might recover. Once he dies I’m all out of uncles, I will be the oldest surviving male member of the clan…

Sorry to hear about your uncle @Jeroen....
When love ones are dying, at death's door, this can bring to life/awaken the impermanent nature of all things...A reminder of how precious life is and to live and appreciate life....

Stay mindful @Jeroen