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Re: How is dependent origination different than determinism?
@person said:
Currently I'm something of a compatibilist. I believe in causes and conditions, but don't think that quite means we're all on a completely predictable set of train tracks. I hold open the possibility of present moment causation, that in the moment we can be aware of what is arising in the mind and that information acts in the causal chain to allow divergence from strict past determinism. It frees us from Laplace's demon. I also think the common sense notion of the self as being a homunculus separate from the world and biology that makes decisions is a false view that confuses people. Just because a process in your decision making comes from the subconscious doesn't mean that's not you. Just because environmental factors influence decisions doesn't mean they don't affect your unique makeup differently than another's. Practically and morally there is a distinction between being pushed off a diving board and deciding to jump off yourself even though both are deterministic.
I think this is a good way of putting it, and I agree for the most part. I think that the non-linearity of the complex causal process of conditionality allows for multiple causes and conditions to impact any one moment, and that "in the moment we can be aware of what is arising in the mind and that information acts in the causal chain to allow divergence from strict past determinism." But I do think it's ultimately causation all the way down as it seems highly unlikely that the faculty of the mind that intends and makes choices is itself free from causality/causal processes, be they mental or physical. In fact, I really like pegembara's post because I think it expresses this succinctly:
@pegembara said:
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.Dependent arising is the teaching of the Buddha.
One who sees dependent arising sees the Dhamma.All things, including suffering, are dependently arising or due to causes and conditions.
Intentions, too, are due to causes and conditions.
Mix with the wrong people and wrong intentions become the norm.
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow
I suspect a lot of the issue, as @person has already noted, is linguistical and comes down to the nuances of the terms used. I believe many of us ultimately agree on things but not how they're linguistically framed. Very few would argue that our intentions, or the psychophysical beings who produce them, are unconditioned, hence they're characterized by conditionality. But describing that process and reality can be a challenge for said beings as there are multiple levels and POVs involved.
So, as others have mentioned, the most skillful approach is to focus on the purpose of these teachings, that of understanding dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. Because ultimately, that's all the Buddha described.
Jason
Re: How is dependent origination different than determinism?
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
Dependent arising is the teaching of the Buddha.
One who sees dependent arising sees the Dhamma.
All things, including suffering, are dependently arising or due to causes and conditions.
Intentions, too, are due to causes and conditions.
Mix with the wrong people and wrong intentions become the norm.
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow
Re: How is dependent origination different than determinism?
@ScottPen said:
If freedom from suffering is dependent upon understanding and accepting reality,
Well, it's not freedom, it's cessation. The cessation of suffering. Freedom means that suffering still exists. If cessation is dependent on something, it's more like dependent on arising. For a phenomenon to cease, it must first arise. If a phenomenon arises, it must certainly cease.
Re: Two minutes of meditation?
Meditating is a witnessing of wakefulness. All expressions of existence have invitations to this party. No ID or bouncers are required.
how
Re: The Other Elephant In The Room
There is no "war" here because the people of Gaza are completely defenseless & imprisoned. "War" happens between two armies. In Ukraine, there is a war because Ukraine & Russia had the largest armies in Europe, where Russia opened humanitarian corridors to allow civilians to depart and Ukraine was continuously armed by the West. This is not happening in Gaza. Its not a war. Its just a massacre. As for Oct 7, the Israeli government has already admitted 200 Hamas burned beyond recognition were included in the original 1400 death count. There is enough evidence & testimonies by now many Israelis were killed by Israel military fire power. While the Hamas adventure to capture hostages for prisoner exchanges was the very worst foolish follies, we probably need to take with exaggerated narratives. Unfortunately, as I said to an ICC lawyer as soon as Oct 7 occurred, this is probably the end of Gaza. Eventually, the surviving people must be transferred to the West as refugees. The US government vetoed a ceasefire in Gaza because democracy is not working in the US. The people lost control of the government.
Aboud
Re: Two minutes of meditation?
I have that sometimes.
The other day I came across a lovely short 10-minute meditation by Mooji which was about “focusing on your sense of being”. It was the first time in years that I actually enjoyed meditating.
Jeroen
Re: Everyone sees the world through cultural glasses
In this post I will claim that it is excellent to intellectually see all groups neutrally but that for many (most?) of us - even as we claim to see this way - in our hearts the us/them dichotomy remains active on a deeper level. Exorcising this deeper level through spiritual practice is highly commendable, even though difficult.
Here is the shortest version of my personal example: I grew up in a war-zone, a normal part of the day was to watch war-related news, my city was bombed, I went to bomb shelters, etc. It was always "the Serbs" which were vilified, and "the Croats" which were sanctified. I never knew any Serbs but as a young leftist and student of political science took great pride in not harbouring any ill-will towards them. In every debate on the issue I would argue along the lines as has been argued in this thread - that there are no "Serbs", just various individuals.
At around age 20 I participated in an international youth camp and met the first Serbs I ever met. To my great shock and dismay, my first reaction was one of - fear! My later life-long Serb friends told me that they felt exactly the same way and had exactly the same views before our meeting.
I don't know who cracked the first joke, but the way in which we loosened and transcended this fear was to call each other the worst nationalistic names we could in a humoristic and endearing manner: I called them "Četnici", they called me "Ustaše" (basically, a Nazi). Through this humoristic approach, without avoiding the underlying tension, we quickly became best friends and did everything together during the camp and remained excellent friends to this day. A decade later I was gladdened to see that our "method" is endorsed by Slavoj Žižek, a world-famous Slovenian philosopher.
I thought I had this cracked. Then, one day, I realized that STILL whenever I heard the word "Serb" there would be a low-level fear response in my body. I asked my Serb friend whether she felt the same when she heard the word "Croat", and she said yes!
I became really, really pissed off and decided I would not tolerate this for one more minute. I meditated on this issue for three hours, had a realization, and the fear went away. I tested myself on various youtube videos of Serbian singers, politicians, etc., and was sooo happy that it went away.
However, today I find that this fear has crept back in, so another meditation might be in order. I believe it is due to the continuing Serb-villification in my surroundings.
What I'm trying to say is: we can have one view intellectually - and it is very good to have a good one - but still harbour the reverse in our "pain-body". The real work, to my mind, is working with this pain body, to align it with a better state of being.
marcitko
Re: How is dependent origination different than determinism?
From a personal training/habits perspective:
When one is lazy, unfocused, and controlled by negative habits, it appears subjectively as if one has little control and free will.
When one 'wins over oneself' frequently, trains discipline and focus, lets go of negative habits, and cultivates positive habits, it appears subjectively as if one has much more control and free will.
'Only the disciplined ones are free' (Marathon runner Eliud Kipchoge).
marcitko