Enlightenment only for Buddhists?

vinlyn

I another thread, Jason wrote: While it may sounds overly simplistic, the basic premise of the path can be summed up by this short passage from the Dhammapada: "The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened? Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

NamelessRiver

I don't think anybody can tell another person is enlightened for sure. Specially if you have no direct knowledge of the person.

vinlyn

I don't think anybody can tell another person is enlightened for sure. Specially if you have no direct knowledge of the person.

I definitely agree with that.

genkaku

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened?
________________________

The notion that anyone could "become" enlightened strikes me as dubious at best. Enticing, perhaps, but still dubious, if not downright ridiculous.

zenff

Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

I have suspicions about the greengrocer two blocks down the street.

person

Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

I suppose Siddartha wasn't a Buddhist. :rolleyes:

I don't think that's really your question though.

vinlyn

Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

I suppose Siddartha wasn't a Buddhist. :rolleyes:

I don't think that's really your question though.

No, but an interesting point.

taiyaki

Why not? The Buddha woke up to reality, he didn't "create" what is. He spoke about how things were when the veil was set
aside. You can probably conclude that prior to him and after him there has been many folks who realize the same truth.

They may have interpreted it and taught it a bit different than the buddha. I'd have to say though that the buddha taught most clearly and straight to the point. In that sense there is no man like the Buddha.

Buddhist is just a label. Any human being has the potential for enlightenment.

IronRabbit

If the bodhisattva vow is taken to its logical conclusion - there will be a time when - all - sentient beings will be enlightened. And there is nothing in the vow about - just Buddhists...

Now, feel free to dispute logical extrapolation of a more than far reaching vow of compassion and loving-kindness...

Still, it would seem possible to imagine - repeat - imagine all sentient beings enlightened.....at some time...even the sun will expire...at some time....

person

There's something called a Pratyekabuddha that achieves enlightenment when there's no Buddha or Buddhist teachings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha

As far as someone following a different religion becoming enlightened, I guess that depends on what you mean by enlightenment. In the strict Buddhist view I think enlightenment only comes about through a direct realization of no-self or emptiness. So someone following a different path could reach many of the higher jhanas and become very wise but still wouldn't qualify as reaching enlightenment.

Fenix

are christians the only ones that go to heaven?

taiyaki

Enlightenment is simply not seeing with the lenses of "ego". so when you see reality as it is, you are enlightened.
when you overlay concepts on top of the naked reality, then you create duality. That is fine for the most part, but we cling to
those concepts as inherently existing in reality.

It is more accurate to say that you are unenlightening yourself every moment. Quite the paradigm shift? There is nothing to achieve like a masters program? Enlightenment is neither simple nor hard to achieve, because it is simply awakening to what
is. Thus it is always here right now and the nature of reality as it is. If it wasn't then it would be outside of us. How can anything exist outside of us?

taiyaki

are christians the only ones that go to heaven?

you can just tell yourself that you believe that jesus christ died for your sins. bam you're going to heaven now.

honestly, do you think a "loving" god would send his children to hell? Lol it is a metaphor.
heaven and hell are just mental states.

thickpaper

Whatever enlightenment is it is true of all sentient beings - i think this can be seen within interdependent causation and karma.

I would imagine there would be countless alien buddhas, but none would be causally connected with "our" buddha.

i think that the four noble truths are true throughout the universe. Perhaps that is unreasonable or unwise...?

Peace

newtech

Hello:

I another thread, Jason wrote: While it may sounds overly simplistic, the basic premise of the path can be summed up by this short passage from the Dhammapada: "The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened? Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

a) According to the Dhamma its completely possible...but very hard.

b) No, i dont think there has been an historical spiritual character outside buddhism reaching that very same enlightment. Why?: Because when they talk, they dont talk in the same way, they dont tell the same story. They would have to feel inmediatly identified with buddhist doctrine instead of making something separated.

Takuan

Honestly, I think that it is very possible to become enlightened outside of Buddhism. For example, there are stories of many Sufis reaching enlightenment. Actually, you might be surprised at how similar Buddhism is to Sufism.

compassionate_warrior

We had a thread asking if there have been any bodhisattvas in modern times, and there were many responses. Mine was Harry Belafonte. But re: ancient times, could Jesus be said to be enlightened? The thing is, Vinlyn, bodhisattvas don't always choose to return as Buddhists. There are hidden bodhisattvas among us. Maybe even the neighborhood greengrocer. A doctor or nurse who takes special care with patients. Anyone who devotes him/herself to alleviating suffering could be a bodhisattva.

hermitwin

Jesus said. 'forgive them, for they know not what they do'
implies he sees the ignorance in people.
But there are several stages of enlightenment.
My guess is Jesus was not fully enlightened.
Many taoist masters aim for immortality as gods.
I would interpret that as being in the heavenly realm.

Jeffrey

a bodhisattva realizes that all beings can be free.. that each one has a starting point

DhammaDhatu

And the Blessed One spoke, saying: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third or fourth degree of saintliness.

But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third and fourth degrees of saintliness.

Now in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third and fourth degrees of saintliness.

Devoid of true ascetics are the systems of other teachers. But if, Subhadda, the bhikkhus live righteously, the world will not be destitute of arahats.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

jinzang

Before answering that question, you have to have a clear definition of what enlightenment is, as the word means different things to different people. My opinion is that if you love everyone without distinction and meet every situation in life with gratitude, that is enough, at least for this life. And there have been a few people in every religion who have met this standard.

thickpaper

My opinion is that if you love everyone without distinction and meet every situation in life with gratitude, that is enough, at least for this life. And there have been a few people in every religion who have met this standard.

That is a very lovely and admirable opinion for sure, imo

A question, if I may, do you think truth and wisdom are distinct from loving kindness, or is one needed for the other... or....

namaste

Vajraheart

Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

I suppose Siddartha wasn't a Buddhist. :rolleyes:

I don't think that's really your question though.

The Buddha definitely was a Buddhist, he said, "I'm re-teaching an ancient path." He taught the Vinayas of lay and monk disciples. He taught in a systematic way a path to what he himself called Buddhahood. It's not like some other religions, where the system grew up after the event of the person blamed for the system, or where the system is attributed to a creator god. In fact one can say anthropologically, that it is the main mystical influence through the silk road on all other spiritual traditions as it was for a long, long time the largest spiritual tradition on the entire planet. Even though there is a lot of meshing all over the place dependent upon where it went, but the main aspects of the Buddhas teachings were so clearly defined by the Buddha over his 40 years of constant teaching and example that it never seems to get lost no matter how meshed it is with other external influences.

Vajraheart

Honestly, I think that it is very possible to become enlightened outside of Buddhism. For example, there are stories of many Sufis reaching enlightenment. Actually, you might be surprised at how similar Buddhism is to Sufism.

Yes, but Sufism is more of a kind of Buddhist and Buddhist influenced Hinduism type of Islam that came later due to these mystical influences from India. Also, the Buddha warned in many teachings of reifying a cosmic self, or creator God. I'm not quite sure if because you just get to a light, means that one is liberated from the cycle of becoming. The Buddha warned of many pitfalls on the way to complete realization of the fact of dependent origination and formless reifications was one of them, as taught by the Buddha. If you read the Sufi teachings, they do reify a formless underlying support for everything as a supreme and cosmic monist source of all things that is an Alpha and Omega, endowed with perfect will, and omnipotence, and thus do not teach dependent origination but rather independent origination. Some of the externals are similar to what the Buddha taught, but plenty of Shramana teachings were even before the advent of the Buddha. The Buddhas main teaching and realization was not from the form and formless meditation experiences, but from insight into dependent origination which some call the 9th jhana, which is not talked about in any other tradition with explicit clarity as it is in Buddhism. I would say the closest tradition to this teaching might be Taoism? But, only through certain Taoist lineages most likely influenced by the Shakyamuni. Supposedly before the Shakyamuni, the human species was not yet ready for this teaching of dependent origination, and there were only solitary realizers and not teachers of the system to Buddhahood. Who knows? Maybe some of the very pre-Buddha teachings that seem to point to an insight like dependent origination, like yin/yang metaphors were those of some of these Pratyekabuddhas' that the Buddha spoke of?

Vajraheart

I another thread, Jason wrote: While it may sounds overly simplistic, the basic premise of the path can be summed up by this short passage from the Dhammapada: "The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened? Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

The above quote is really an expansion of the 4 immeasurables or Brahamviharas which the Buddha taught do not alone lead to full liberation from the cycle of unconscious becoming. The Buddha taught that insight into dependent origination is the liberating factor and it does seem that most paths teach a reification of a primal monist source of all things. I don't know if an individual is fully liberated and just being a teacher through another tradition to help people evolve enough until they are ready to experience the profound insight of dependent origination? But, the Buddha did say that if it's a Buddha teaching Buddhism, it must be endowed with exemplifying marks of the Sanatanadharma.

It does seem that most all other paths get sucked into some sort of Eternalist extreme view which is not reflective of complete insight into the nature of experience itself?

There are most definitely very highly evolved beings in all good spiritual traditions and walks of life, that teach aspects of the 4 immeasurables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara), but Buddhahood is very specific in what justifies it's truth as the pinnacle of human experience not available outside of the particular insight of inter-dependent origination.

Vajraheart

Before answering that question, you have to have a clear definition of what enlightenment is, as the word means different things to different people. My opinion is that if you love everyone without distinction and meet every situation in life with gratitude, that is enough, at least for this life. And there have been a few people in every religion who have met this standard.

The Buddha did teach that this is only an aspect of the 4 Brahmaviharas which lead to rebirth into God realms, or formless bliss realms, but not direct insight into the nature of becoming.

So, I would agree that these teachings lead to enlightenment,but I feel that Buddhahood transcends enlightenment.

Vajraheart

I don't think anybody can tell another person is enlightened for sure. Specially if you have no direct knowledge of the person.

I do think an enlightened being can. But again, I think there is enlightenment, and then there is Buddhahood. A Buddha would most definitely be able to tell if you are a Buddha or not.

Vajraheart

Jesus said. 'forgive them, for they know not what they do'
implies he sees the ignorance in people.
But there are several stages of enlightenment.
My guess is Jesus was not fully enlightened.
Many taoist masters aim for immortality as gods.
I would interpret that as being in the heavenly realm.

Exactly, it does not seem to me that all traditions and lineages have the same aim. Even in Buddhism, there are different types of Buddhas dependent upon the type of individual capacity one has cultivated. That's not to say that the level of mind is not the same in all types of Buddhas, but the way they manifest that insight definitely can be categorized into different generalizations, such as world teacher, wheel turner, solitary realizer, etc. These different results demand different methods for their manifestation as everything arises dependently and not independently.

Jason

I another thread, Jason wrote: While it may sounds overly simplistic, the basic premise of the path can be summed up by this short passage from the Dhammapada: "The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened? Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

The above quote is really an expansion of the 4 immeasurables or Brahamviharas which the Buddha taught do not alone lead to full liberation from the cycle of unconscious becoming.

While the general consensus has traditional been that the four brahma-viharas themselves only lead to rebirth in the Brahma realms, not nibbana, Richard Gombrich makes a fairly convincing case in works like What the Buddha Thought and "Kindness and Compassion as means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism" that there are texts in the Pali Canon extolling kindness and how it can lead to enlightenment (e.g., Khp 9, Dhp 368 and possibly even DN 13).

Just some food for thought.

Vajraheart

I another thread, Jason wrote: While it may sounds overly simplistic, the basic premise of the path can be summed up by this short passage from the Dhammapada: "The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened? Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

The above quote is really an expansion of the 4 immeasurables or Brahamviharas which the Buddha taught do not alone lead to full liberation from the cycle of unconscious becoming.

While the general consensus has traditional been that the four brahma-viharas themselves only lead to rebirth in the Brahma realms, not nibbana, Richard Gombrich makes a fairly convincing case in works like What the Buddha Thought and "Kindness and Compassion as means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism" that there are texts in the Pali Canon extolling kindness and how it can lead to enlightenment (e.g., Khp 9, Dhp 368 and possibly even DN 13).

Just some food for thought.

Sure, enlightenment, but Buddhahood as described in the Suttas and Sutras is indicated as deeper, or a subtler realization of the nature of things. Also, the Buddha says plenty of times that insight into the nature of things needs to be coupled with the practices of Brahmavihara virtues in order for full blown awakening to occur.

The Brahmaviharas are kind of like the juice of the fruit and insight is the seed or the root of the tree.

Cinorjer

This is a Zen take on the subject.

In the way a lot of people define Enlightenment, not even Buddha was enlightened. This label of "Enlightened" blocks your view of the many Buddhas out there as well as realizing your own potential.

There is a particular preconceived notion that Teachers must battle with every student, if they're going to get anywhere. It is, in fact, the main enemy any Teacher must battle. It goes like this.

"Buddha was special."
"Only special people are good enough to be enlightened."
"I'm not special."
"I'm not good enough to be enlightened."

This is the honest belief of just about every student at first, even if they know enough to mouth the platitudes about everyone having Buddha Nature.

The Buddha taught that if people follow the Middle Way, it would take them to the same place he found, a mind free of selfish desire. Countless people, Buddhists and nonBuddhists alike, have followed some version of this path over the centuries. Either many Buddhas are quietly walking around today and we don't know what we're looking for, or the Buddha didn't know what he was talking about.

I vote for the problem is us not even knowing what enlightenment really is.

caz

I another thread, Jason wrote: While it may sounds overly simplistic, the basic premise of the path can be summed up by this short passage from the Dhammapada: "The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened."

So my question is -- can only Buddhists become enlightened? Are there specific non-Buddhists throughout history that you consider to be enlightened?

Buddha taught very profound and direct instructions there are effectively non like Buddha who taught their paths, There are religions and religious teachers whom would take paraody from the sutric instructions but even sutric instructions reveal some very profound aspects of mind training that I have yet to come across in other traditions, and considering the tantric instructions have pretty much no comparison available with them Sanatanadharma Tantra is certainly nothing like Buddhist tantra the only common thing they share is the name tantra.
Buddhas being motivated by Bodhichitta do manifest as enlightened teachers but they teach specifically to their auidences abilities and seeing as there is only one founding Buddha so enlightened beings may manifest in non buddhadharma traditions but only teach a semblence of virtue enough to secure rebirth in higher realms so in some regards there may well be enlightened teachers of other traditions but what they teach may well not be a path to full liberation.

jinzang

"A question, if I may, do you think truth and wisdom are distinct from loving kindness, or is one needed for the other... or.... "

Love and wisdom are inseparable, two sides of the same coin.

thickpaper

Love and wisdom are inseparable, two sides of the same coin.

That seems true to me. do you think that Metta the same as love and kindness, or is it something distinct (lovingkindness)?

Peace

10jellis

I don't think anybody can tell another person is enlightened for sure. Specially if you have no direct knowledge of the person.

Floating_Abu

I
Have
Learned
So much from God
That I can no longer
Call
Myself

A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,
A Buddhist, a Jew.

The Truth has shared so much of Itself
With me

That I can no longer call myself
A man, a woman, an angel,
Or even pure
Soul.

Love has
Befriended Hafiz so completely
It has turned to ash
And freed
Me

Of every concept and image
My mind has ever known.

- Hafiz


But I still like the odds in/from Buddhism best

Good luck everyone

Abu

10jellis

Good luck everyone.

DhammaDhatu

I
Have
Learned
So much from God

And freed
Me

Of every concept and image
My mind has ever known.

- Hafiz

Except the concepts of "God" and "me", it seems.

jinzang

"do you think that Metta the same as love and kindness, or is it something distinct (lovingkindness)?"

Metta (maitri in Sanskrit) is the strong wish that others be happy, devoting your effort to ensure their happiness. The word "love" should be enough to translate metta, but since love is used in other senses, it is often translated as" loving kindness"

Vajraheart

I
Have
Learned
So much from God

And freed
Me

Of every concept and image
My mind has ever known.

- Hafiz

Except the concepts of "God" and "me", it seems.

Unless "God" is just used as a metaphor for everything... though generally not in Theism. Also as long as "me" is loosely held and understood as a relative reality without any ultimate essence... it's fine.

sndymorn

Playing a numbers game therefore, in the West, you are more likely to meet a Christian whom is close to "Enlightenment" than a Buddhist.
This has been my experience meeting and interacting with people I consider wise/enlightened(/close to enlightened).
Moreover, I find age adds the proper gravitas to these Christians(and other religious figures) so that a ninety year old mystical fellow seems to float. I come across these people on occasion and am awed by their quiet insights.
I think a powerful expression of Christian practice is the statement "you will know they are Christians by their love." When I meet someone like this , who lives this, all religions vanish. However, Christianity brought this fellow/gal to us and must be acknowledged.
So too with the Buddhist I am sure, but in the USA I do not bump into too many of those "floating " types. . As I said, it is a numbers game.
As Zenff said: he / she suspect the "green grocer." I too find all my "buddhas" in the oddest places and religions...