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If a religion's anything like it's founder (and I think in this case it is), then it SHOULD be intellectual to the core! Buddha had a TOWERING intellect. Discussions LIKE THIS are a result of that DAUNTING mind.
Good point. One of the things that has always impressed me about Buddhism is that it actually makes sense when you think about it deeply, unlike the other world religions.
If a religion's anything like it's founder (and I think in this case it is), then it SHOULD be intellectual to the core! Buddha had a TOWERING intellect. Discussions LIKE THIS are a result of that DAUNTING mind.
Good point. One of the things that has always impressed me about Buddhism is that it actually makes sense when you think about it deeply, unlike the other world religions.
I agree, I'm more Nyingmapa. Maybe that would be more your speed, more about direct experience than the concepts. You are correct in that the Gelugpas are very nitty gritty, almost to a fault, dependent upon the person. It's good for people like the Dalai Lama, who is highly experienced and a Gelugpa, because he is able to explain things to people, which is what knowing the nitty gritty is about. The Gelugpa is definitely a conceptual school. But, the Dalai Lamas heart practice is Dzogchen, which is from the Nyingmapa. This is my heart practice as well.
I have been a part of a study group in the Gelukpa tradition for 3 years and I have had my share of study. I am starting to be a little fed up about it. In Gelukpa tradition they emphasize the study so much that it seems like university studies that can go on forever. It seems it will always be more deep things to study and it can be quite exhausting with so many studies and deep analyzing. There is so many concepts about everything in great detail. Nyingma tradition is more, like you say, about direct experience and not SO much study if you compare to gelukpa. So I find it more balanced.
But I guess it depends on different persons. Some people may like to study very much and debate about their deep analysis. I liked to study too but I have now come to a point where I feel resistance towards it. But I think it is really important to not get stuck there and forget about the other practices. It is not until you start to practice in real life you can start to feel a difference.
It's true that theories can't be left out and that discussions can facilitate understanding. But it is necessary to balance it with application in order to have a direct taste of the dhamma. While the understanding aspect involves logical thinking to gain understanding from without, the application aspect involves stilling the mind . The two balance each other quite nicely. Both contribute to the development of wisdom. The Sila aspect has to do with the development of compassion where you abandon harmful activities towards others and engage in good deeds towards others. In this way, the practice of dhamma can be beneficial to oneself and others .
I agree, I'm more Nyingmapa. Maybe that would be more your speed, more about direct experience than the concepts. You are correct in that the Gelugpas are very nitty gritty, almost to a fault, dependent upon the person. It's good for people like the Dalai Lama, who is highly experienced and a Gelugpa, because he is able to explain things to people, which is what knowing the nitty gritty is about. The Gelugpa is definitely a conceptual school. But, the Dalai Lamas heart practice is Dzogchen, which is from the Nyingmapa. This is my heart practice as well.
Nyingma tradition is more, like you say, about direct experience and not SO much study if you compare to gelukpa. So I find it more balanced.
@Julia Nyingmapa is more about mind to mind transmission, and ngondro. Honestly, I can't think of myself doing anything other than Dzogchen, as you get transmission of experience first, then you have some foundation practices that aren't all that demanding, but are very nice and sweet to do. If I were you, I'd go around and check out what some other lamas offer. The nice thing about Vajrayana, is that this is totally ok. You probably need to find a Root Guru, and that's the one that introduces you to the nature of mind directly. One may have many Lamas as teachers, or many Guru's you could say, but generally only one or two Root Guru's. Have you found your Root Guru yet? The nice thing as well due to the Rime movement, is that you can study within different branches and no one has the right to be mad at you about it because the Dalai Lama is a Rime master himself.
However, I did spend over two years practicing intensively with the NKT
I'm sorry that your introduction to Vajrayana was through the cult of the NKT. You were introduced to high teachings through a low conduit.
May you find the peace you are looking for through your current branch of Buddhism!
But, I'd like to tell you that there is no real relation that the NKT has with Vajrayana except the garb, or the dressing. The NKT, I must say is one of the worst introductions to Vajrayana I can think of, other than a few other cults that claim to be Vajrayana out there that I know of.
They might have some of the dressings right, but they won't have the lineage empowerment, which is necessary for Vajrayana to work, and they won't have the experientially fortified understanding of the teachings.
Might I suggest that you do not use such language it borders sectarian.
However, I did spend over two years practicing intensively with the NKT
I'm sorry that your introduction to Vajrayana was through the cult of the NKT. You were introduced to high teachings through a low conduit.
May you find the peace you are looking for through your current branch of Buddhism!
But, I'd like to tell you that there is no real relation that the NKT has with Vajrayana except the garb, or the dressing. The NKT, I must say is one of the worst introductions to Vajrayana I can think of, other than a few other cults that claim to be Vajrayana out there that I know of.
They might have some of the dressings right, but they won't have the lineage empowerment, which is necessary for Vajrayana to work, and they won't have the experientially fortified understanding of the teachings.
Might I suggest that you do not use such language it borders sectarian.
:
Plus you seem to have repeated a fair amount of misinformation to !
Plus you seem to have repeated a fair amount of misinformation to !
Nope, that's my opinion, backed by the Dalai Lama and plenty who have left NKT.
You are free to your own opinion. I am sectarian when it comes to these things. Like for instance I would be sectarian against Satan worshipers who sacrifice babies to fire pits. Or who pray for the demise of minorities or something like the KKK. Just as I am sectarian against a fringe Vajrayana group that prays to harmful deities.
Plus you seem to have repeated a fair amount of misinformation to !
Nope, that's my opinion, backed by the Dalai Lama and plenty who have left NKT.
You are free to your own opinion. I am sectarian when it comes to these things. Like for instance I would be sectarian against Satan worshipers who sacrifice babies to fire pits. Or who pray for the demise of minorities or something like the KKK. Just as I am sectarian against a fringe Vajrayana group that prays to harmful deities.
Unfortunatly you seem to really have nothing of substance other then harmful words it would be interesting to know how many have actually read commentarys to such a subject rather then automatically accepting HHDL's words without checking them against the commentary of his own spiritual guide or lineage. Or actually what the NKT practises compared to what you imagine they practise such words are harmful and Non Buddhist I would expect a higher standard from someone whom practises Maha Ati yoga.
Some sects of Buddhism do place a great emphisis on study as well as meditation however if we are really going to gain benefit from such we need to deeply apply the understandings regardless of where they come from
@Vajraheart Please don't derail discussions by picking a tangential fight. I don't think anyone's interesting in having an NKT argument in a discussion on intellectualism.
Seconded. That particular argument is between HHDL and the NKT, and is a difference of opinion just like any other schism (i.e. Mahayana vs. Theravada vs. Vajrayana). If HHDL wants to say NKT isn't Tibetan Buddhism, that's his opinion and his right as the religious leader of Tibet... but it's still Buddhism and we don't discriminate against this or that tradition.
We in fact had/have a member who has had direct experience with the New Kadampa Tradition and had only good things to say about it, so unless we're talking about a point of direct experience ourselves it's best to just be quiet and listen (if we can't contribute in a helpful manner).
Effectively it is the Thai Forest Tradition, but brought back to America.
I'm probably being too literal, but why did you say "back to America." It reads like it originated in America.
Haha, Bucky. I'm sorry about the language I used in that post. In that context it most certainly sounds as if the practice originated in America. The idea I wished to convey is that the teacher who is an American, spent a period of time in Southeast Asia, and then brought the teachings back with him. Hope that cleared a little up. -Tikal
accepting HHDL's words without checking them ...against the commentary of his own spiritual guide or lineage. Or actually what the NKT practises compared to what you imagine they practise...
I've read the commentaries, a long list of them and understand. Anyway... just let it be.
Hmmm, nice. There is also individual capacities. For some, the seemingly complex is simple, for others the simple is complex.
But yes, removing unnecessary personal pride takes practice, and having an intellectual platform for that is a good start.
We shouldn't judge those that merely have an intellectual understanding and feel proud of it, at least they aren't proud of their deer killing abilities or their ability to shoot guns! It's a step in the right direction to be proud of ones intellectual capacity within a spiritual tradition. It's true that the competition can be nauseating from afar, but that's one's own issue and lack of patience, nothing more. This world is not perfect, and everyone has their process.
accepting HHDL's words without checking them ...against the commentary of his own spiritual guide or lineage. Or actually what the NKT practises compared to what you imagine they practise...
I've read the commentaries, a long list of them and understand. Anyway... just let it be.
It is better just not to say unpleasent things to one and other or about other peoples traditions when on a community board with people from many different traditions it is not constructive or conductive to Dharma friendship.
Effectively it is the Thai Forest Tradition, but brought back to America.
I'm probably being too literal, but why did you say "back to America." It reads like it originated in America.
Haha, Bucky. I'm sorry about the language I used in that post. In that context it most certainly sounds as if the practice originated in America. The idea I wished to convey is that the teacher who is an American, spent a period of time in Southeast Asia, and then brought the teachings back with him. Hope that cleared a little up. -Tikal
you might be interested in reading Cutting Thru Spiritual Materialism by Chogyam Trungpa http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Here's a taste : "Our vast collections of knowledge and experience are just part of ego's display, part of the grandiose quality of ego. We display them to the world and, in so doing, reassure ourselves that we exist, safe and secure, as "spiritual" people. Whenever we begin to evaluate, deciding that we should or should not do this or that, then we have already associated our practice or our knowledge with categories, one pitted against the other, and that is spiritual materialism, the false spirituality of our spiritual advisor. Whenever we a have a dualistic notion such as, "I am doing this because I want to achieve a particular state of consciousness, a particular state of being," the automatically we separate ourselves from the reality of what we are."
If a religion's anything like it's founder (and I think in this case it is), then it SHOULD be intellectual to the core! Buddha had a TOWERING intellect. Discussions LIKE THIS are a result of that DAUNTING mind.
Naturally, I must disagree. The Buddha had clarity & insight. This is not the same as scientific intellect. The teachings of the Buddha are simply his description of mental phenomena as he experienced them. Generally, our rebellion against the Buddha's teachings come from not having the same clarity of insight. Thus the Buddha's teachings appear "intellectual" to us.
For example, when the Buddha said: "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving...", we take this to be intellectual rather than understanding it is simply a description of our own experience.
Buddhists with appropriate insight, gratitude & trust regard the Buddha as follows:
Thanks for the memories, grout4cake. That's one of the first "dharma books" I read. It had a huge impact on me, and I think is still relevant to anyone new to Buddhism.
May all beings find the causes of true happiness within. bucky
Comments
Good point. One of the things that has always impressed me about Buddhism is that it actually makes sense when you think about it deeply, unlike the other world religions.
Spiny
Nyingma tradition is more, like you say, about direct experience and not SO much study if you compare to gelukpa. So I find it more balanced.
But I guess it depends on different persons. Some people may like to study very much and debate about their deep analysis. I liked to study too but I have now come to a point where I feel resistance towards it. But I think it is really important to not get stuck there and forget about the other practices. It is not until you start to practice in real life you can start to feel a difference.
Nyingmapa is more about mind to mind transmission, and ngondro. Honestly, I can't think of myself doing anything other than Dzogchen, as you get transmission of experience first, then you have some foundation practices that aren't all that demanding, but are very nice and sweet to do. If I were you, I'd go around and check out what some other lamas offer. The nice thing about Vajrayana, is that this is totally ok. You probably need to find a Root Guru, and that's the one that introduces you to the nature of mind directly. One may have many Lamas as teachers, or many Guru's you could say, but generally only one or two Root Guru's. Have you found your Root Guru yet? The nice thing as well due to the Rime movement, is that you can study within different branches and no one has the right to be mad at you about it because the Dalai Lama is a Rime master himself.
Might I suggest that you do not use such language it borders sectarian.
Plus you seem to have repeated a fair amount of misinformation to !
You are free to your own opinion. I am sectarian when it comes to these things. Like for instance I would be sectarian against Satan worshipers who sacrifice babies to fire pits. Or who pray for the demise of minorities or something like the KKK. Just as I am sectarian against a fringe Vajrayana group that prays to harmful deities.
We in fact had/have a member who has had direct experience with the New Kadampa Tradition and had only good things to say about it, so unless we're talking about a point of direct experience ourselves it's best to just be quiet and listen (if we can't contribute in a helpful manner).
I'm sorry about the language I used in that post. In that context it most certainly sounds as if the practice originated in America. The idea I wished to convey is that the teacher who is an American, spent a period of time in Southeast Asia, and then brought the teachings back with him. Hope that cleared a little up.
-Tikal
Buddhism is experiential.
We shouldn't judge those that merely have an intellectual understanding and feel proud of it, at least they aren't proud of their deer killing abilities or their ability to shoot guns! It's a step in the right direction to be proud of ones intellectual capacity within a spiritual tradition. It's true that the competition can be nauseating from afar, but that's one's own issue and lack of patience, nothing more. This world is not perfect, and everyone has their process.
Here's a taste :
"Our vast collections of
knowledge and experience are just part of ego's display, part of the
grandiose quality of ego. We display them to the world and, in so
doing, reassure ourselves that we exist, safe and secure, as
"spiritual" people.
Whenever we begin to evaluate, deciding that we should or should not do this or
that, then we have already associated our practice or our knowledge
with categories, one pitted against the other, and that is spiritual
materialism, the false spirituality of our spiritual advisor.
Whenever we a have a dualistic notion such as, "I am doing this
because I want to achieve a particular state of consciousness, a
particular state of being," the automatically we separate ourselves
from the reality of what we are."
For example, when the Buddha said: "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving...", we take this to be intellectual rather than understanding it is simply a description of our own experience.
Buddhists with appropriate insight, gratitude & trust regard the Buddha as follows:
Buddho susuddho karuṇā-mahaṇṇavo,
Yoccanta-suddhabbara-ñāṇa-locano,
The Buddha, absolutely pure, with ocean-like compassion,
Possessed of the eye of perfect stainless insight.
May all beings find the causes of true happiness within.
bucky
IMO: Yes.
Go to virtually any Buddhist temple in Thailand. Far less intellectual than say among the people in this forum.
Okay, in that case:
"Is Buddhism becoming too intellectual?"
IMO: If you make it so, yes.
Metta,
Guy