Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Is Buddhism becoming to intellectual?
I am involved with tibetan buddhism. I have studied and practiced for about 4 years now an I am involved in a sangha. I have met many people who has been practicing buddhism for long time, but I don´t see that they are so much calmer and nicer people than the rest of us. Probably they are good at calming their mind in meditation and have a very intellectual understanding. But I don´t see that they seem happier than other. One thing that I see among many buddhists is the intellectual competition between them in their understandning. It seem like some can develope arrogance about their intellectual understanding. But I don´t see many true compassionate and humble people. And I don´t mean this "kind" students who pretend that they are so humble in front of a theacher, I mean true practioner.
It feels like a lot of people use their path for to entertain their intellectual mind and feel special about it.
This is my experience, and I think it is sad. I think the people who works in hospitals are very compassionate people. So is buddhism becoming more a intellectual trip and a way to feel special about their new knowledge?
It feels like a lot of people use their path for to entertain their intellectual mind and feel special about it.
This is my experience, and I think it is sad. I think the people who works in hospitals are very compassionate people. So is buddhism becoming more a intellectual trip and a way to feel special about their new knowledge?
0
Comments
when someone attains their true nature that is one thing.
they should also understand how their true nature functions as well.
compassion always arises from emptiness. expression always manifests from potential.
true buddhism is an existential realization of what is. it isn't a philosophy or a religion. it is a method and pointer to what is.
meow
I guess it depends what kind of buddhist tradition you study. Some emphasize very much debate and discussion. But I think it can be a pitfall if you get stucked.
Intellectual and emotional appreciations are a starting point and a forgivable one ... if these are the only tools available, if the habits of a lifetime are all you know, then how else would anyone approach Buddhism? So, to start off with, it's all intellectual and emotional posturing, both for yourself and for others.
The only thing worth knowing about the mistakes you see around you is this: They are very good encouragements, very good teachers. And what do they teach? In letters ten feet high, those mistakes proclaim: DON'T YOU DO THAT!
descartes said that i think therefore i am. thus philosophy is born. thus thinking, thinking, thinking. duality.
zen says i don't think then what? no thinking, seeing clearly at what is, clear mind. non-duality.
but zen even goes farther. how does this no-mind function? it reflects what is. when someone is hungry, you feed them. when someone is sad, you comfort them.
if you think you will do things out of obligation to some moral code or you won't do anything at all. put aside all thinking and just keep clear mind. or in another words just do it without thinking.
if all else fails, go have a glass of water.
The intellectual conclusions are as indubitable as the spiritual, moral and mental conclusions/results: The Middle Path is the path away from suffering towards peace and contentment - the practice of mindfulness, kindness and truthfulness is the best way to walk the path.
The three gems have many facets, none is more noble than another.
>>>This is my experience, and I think it is sad.
Do you think the buddha would find it sad?
well wishes
Perhaps there are two elements of Buddhism that makes it a bit more intellectual than some religions. First, to a large extent, we are encouraged to test the various aspects of our religion, rather than just expected to do it because it is the law of our religion. However, I know people of other religions who are just as involved in reading about their reading about their religion, discussing it, and contemplating about it as are many Buddhists.
The second factor about Buddhism being more intellectual may involve how you define what Buddhism is. Some people see Buddhism as a religion. Others argue that it is a philosophy. In this particular forum it seems that it is more often looked at as a religion (which is what I think it is), but I have been in other Buddhism forums where it is considered much more strongly to be a philosophy.
And, what you point out about people feeling special about their Buddhist beliefs is often part of the temptation to think that "my religion is better than your religion", which as someone pointed out in another thread is not very becoming of some Buddhists.
It's fun and intellectually challenging discussing our beliefs. Such discussions can expand our knowledge, but more importantly expand our understanding. That is part of being open-minded. But you'll notice the tendency of a handful of people on this forum to lecture others in the discussion. And for me, taking that kind of attitude is not very productive for anyone because it lacks a sense of humility -- which in this case I'm defining as a lack of understanding that everyone has lots to learn.
The concepts should follow the realization, they are both necessary functions of the endeavor towards liberation. Buddhism is not a path that is about sitting and emptying the mind in a sense of emptying a jar. That's just an aspect, it's also about understanding how the contents within the jar work. It's in seeing directly the particulars of ones own bondage that one learns how to untie it. This is done both through objective and subjective means in Buddhism.
All the best,
Todd
Simplicity can be better than elaborateness. The Buddha wasn't elaborate because he wanted us to understand, not be impressed. He was a very selfless man.
When people become Buddhist, nothing changes automatically. All that happens is that they transfer their former bad behavior into a Buddhist context. If you meet a Buddhist who is arrogant and intellectually competitive, don't you think they were probably that way before they became Buddhist? Until people take the Buddha's teaching to heart and apply it to their lives, nothing changes. When they do, you will see the change.
I don't think we can really blame the teaching or any particular sect. It is just human egos doing their thing...tenacious little devils egos are!!!
Still the almost total lack of this I find in jodo Shinshu is part of what attracts me to this path. However I know some really humble ego-less people in Zen, Theravada, and Tibetan traditions too. So it is not any particular path, just the way people are sometimes.
Besides the dharma and breath meditation, the Buddha also emphasized the development of metta meditation to plant the seed of lovingkindness within. This can serve as a cause for it to find expression in our actions. Maybe many have neglect this aspect of the practice.
When it comes to happiness, any moment when we stop our restless mind and notice the breeze against our skin or the sounds of the rain in this moment, etc..in that moment we can directly feel more joyful and alive. If we are using the teaching to get something in the future then happiness will always be in the future. If we use the teaching as a tool or pointers to help us settle into the moment then contentment can be felt in each moment , here and now.
With metta,
I think there is a lot of pitfalls on the path. The path is great but we can all fall down different pitfalls during the path. It is not easy to see those. Intellectual attachment and big Ego´s is one of them. I don´t say that we shall not investigate with our mind or understand the Buddha´s teaching intellectually. I think it is crucial, but I think you can get stuck there and just bla bla bla about it.
A teacher told us on a course once, that westerners has a tendency to give the wisdom wing to much attention and have a resistance to collecting merit. And he told us it is the opposite in Tibet, Nepal. There the people had a resistance to here the wisdom teachings, they just wanted to collect merits. He told us that it is important to do both. If you only jump into the wisdom and intellectual understanding, your practice become dry like a desert and it is no juice or softness. And if you just jump into the collecting merit part it can be like eating too much sugar. Balance is important he says.
>>>Intellectual attachment and big Ego´s is one of them.
Attachment and ego are delusional and dukka, however they manifest.
>>>I don´t say that we shall not investigate with our mind or understand the Buddha´s teaching intellectually. I think it is crucial
It is crucial for the theory, but imo, not for the practice.
>>>but I think you can get stuck there and just bla bla bla about it.
Sure, (I have done a fair bit of bla bla blaing it myself) but again, unless those people are asking for your advise I wouldn't let it bother you:)
>>>>A teacher told us on a course once, that westerners has a tendency to give the wisdom wing to much attention and have a resistance to collecting merit.
I don't know if that is true.I think it more that in the west we champion one of the three braids of the eightfold path which inevitable leaves the other two aspects in less favour.
>>> And he told us it is the opposite in Tibet, Nepal. There the people had a resistance to here the wisdom teachings, they just wanted to collect merits. He told us that it is important to do both. If you only jump into the wisdom and intellectual understanding, your practice become dry like a desert and it is no juice or softness. And if you just jump into the collecting merit part it can be like eating too much sugar. Balance is important he says.
I would agree with him, though I don't really get the merit idea; to me dharma is more about making happinesses than recieving reward...
namaste
Yes, Buddhists with a tendency to be intellectual can get caught up in this, it's something we need to watch. On the other hand it can be a useful way in for some people, since Dharma is philosophically stimulating and profound.
Spiny
If we just read the recipe book and look at all the tasty looking pictures of the meals, we can't actually taste it or fill our stomach. However, if after reading we go into the kitchen and cook according to the instruction then we can actually benefit from the nourishment of the food that the book describe. In the same way, if people just read the concepts alone it is not enough to create a dramatic change.
Nuanced debate has always been a practice in Buddhism, from the Buddha on.
How about... "Is Buddhism becoming to simplified and aren't there too many Westerners with very little regard for the Intellectual aspect of Buddhism and aren't these people having too much ego about over simplification?"
Maybe a person without a good intellectual ability, is having issues in other aspects of their life because they can't come to a good inner logical explanation for the nuanced causes and conditions for the existence of these neurosis?
There is not a perfect ideal when it comes to Buddhism. There is no definite it's this or that which can be encapsulated so easily. Even the various virtues that naturally arise through experiential understanding of the dharma will be expressed differently, all arising dependent upon the different types or people who grow up around different types of conditions. The sun is the sun, but it doesn't shine on every person the same way.
Who to judge?
I would suggest to you to maybe give Tibetan Buddhism a little rest, and maybe do some research on the four noble truths, and dependent origination. A lot of the time the four noble truths are presented as just four sentences that Buddha said that really don't mean anything and have nothing to do with you. However, the truth is they are a description of the profoundly subtle process of the arising of conditioned phenomenon as you proliferate them in your mind with thinking, and the cessation, or unbinding, of that phenomenon as you let it go, and relax it. When you learn to see these truths as they arise and pass away, by practicing the eightfold path, you really start to see what Buddha was talking about, and this will in turn cause you to experience life in a very peaceful, lighthearted manner, and also to experience a lot more happiness which is what Buddha was really teaching. Good luck.
best wishes
So, these nuanced seemingly intellectual understandings will not be very complex for those with that level of experience.
The 4NT and 8FP are deeply covered by all Tibetan teachers. If they are not covering these, I would change teachers. My own Dzogchen Rinpoche, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche teaches all these basic teachings in his Precious Vase book. All bases are covered in Vajrayana, what some call Tibetan Buddhism which for me is not quite true as it's Vajrayana from India, merely protected in Tibet during the strong Hindu uprising and then Muslim attacks which destroyed Buddhism in India 1,000 years ago.
:banghead:
May you find the peace you are looking for through your current branch of Buddhism!
But, I'd like to tell you that there is no real relation that the NKT has with Vajrayana except the garb, or the dressing. The NKT, I must say is one of the worst introductions to Vajrayana I can think of, other than a few other cults that claim to be Vajrayana out there that I know of.
They might have some of the dressings right, but they won't have the lineage empowerment, which is necessary for Vajrayana to work, and they won't have the experientially fortified understanding of the teachings.
Tikal2012: Yes it would be great if you could send me some information.
I agree, I'm more Nyingmapa. Maybe that would be more your speed, more about direct experience than the concepts. You are correct in that the Gelugpas are very nitty gritty, almost to a fault, dependent upon the person. It's good for people like the Dalai Lama, who is highly experienced and a Gelugpa, because he is able to explain things to people, which is what knowing the nitty gritty is about. The Gelugpa is definitely a conceptual school. But, the Dalai Lamas heart practice is Dzogchen, which is from the Nyingmapa. This is my heart practice as well.
Talkin about sheet for kalpas and get no where!