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I am totally confused...help please
zen_world
Veteran
Okay I am totaly confused with my meditation practice. Can't find any Buddhist resources that will guide me and because of this I am looking at alternative sources. This leads me into new age stuff and making me even more confused.
I had so many weird meditation experience. I can astral project, attained bliss states, seeing different planets, remote viewing, third eye experience, sometimes seeing the future clearly, glimpse of awakening experience etc etc. Its all over and mixed up.
Lately, I try to move into the next plane after astral plane, which is called the mental plane but I cannot pass the astral plane and always end up getting out of my body.
I want to get help from my teacher but because I am new to Buddhism they keep treating me like a newbie meditator. Teaching me how to focus on my breath together with people probably never even meditate before.
As part of your meditation, do you guys try to reach other planes? or jhanas? is there any stages to elightenment? Is it even possible to be enlighten without passing thru these 7 planes (physical, astral, mental, buddhic, atmic, monadic, logoic )
Where am I going with this, I am really confused....
I had so many weird meditation experience. I can astral project, attained bliss states, seeing different planets, remote viewing, third eye experience, sometimes seeing the future clearly, glimpse of awakening experience etc etc. Its all over and mixed up.
Lately, I try to move into the next plane after astral plane, which is called the mental plane but I cannot pass the astral plane and always end up getting out of my body.
I want to get help from my teacher but because I am new to Buddhism they keep treating me like a newbie meditator. Teaching me how to focus on my breath together with people probably never even meditate before.
As part of your meditation, do you guys try to reach other planes? or jhanas? is there any stages to elightenment? Is it even possible to be enlighten without passing thru these 7 planes (physical, astral, mental, buddhic, atmic, monadic, logoic )
Where am I going with this, I am really confused....
0
Comments
Well said, but I do not understand.
I already focus on breath but once I start having these experiences there is not much I can do. How can you focus on breath when you are having out of body experience. How can you focus on breath once you recieve significant extacy and you can't even hear or feel your breath...Eventually focusing on breath leads me to these type of experiences but then what?
I think many of us here meditate to become enlighten, right?
You don't expect to become enlighten right away NOT passing thru all these stages, do you? All these planes are altered states of consciousness and there are stages. Thats what bothers me, what are those stages? I find very good sources in new age but not in Buddhism...
you must have the experience of 'everything/anything arises falls away'
Yes but it is eventually an experience that fades away...
When I see a dog barking at me, I still run away!
Hope you understand what I am sayng...
Thats what I thought too...now I am confused...like I said, I am confused...
thanks tho
Why don't you send a question to an author on jhana. There are numerous people who encountered these experiences and don't understand . I heard that one time a monk was doing walking meditation, and the next moment he experienced himself looking down from above and see himself walking back and forth.
I am sure monks who wrote about jhana would not mind giving you further guidance on this.
metta,
thanks...I downloaded it right away and will read it...thank you
there is nothing to attain or no new state to achieve. your awareness is already the buddha mind.
everything else like astral projection, bliss states, jhanas are tools but they're not the essence you're seeking.
what you seek is the seeker itself. so stop, just be and accept what is.
meditation is the art of allowing everything to be as it is. then when you are open and aware, insight will arise naturally.
stop striving. stop seeking. there is only mind and awareness of mind.
According to what I have read from different sources (new age), you cannot stop rebirth if you do not reach to a certain plane. If I remember correctly, when you leave your mental body or when you pass mental plane, then you loose "self" permanently.
Sure, what you saying make sense but like I said before: "I still run away from a dog that chases me!" do you know what I mean?
you'll thank me later.
as a serious buddhist practitioner, nominaly Zen... the four stages make more sense.
you may search for information on the jhanas too.
i wish you well.
I have been able to see with closed eyes a little bit so I know some mysterious things happen.
There's nothing out there man... give yourself a party.
Awakening is not enough guys, stop deluting yourselves...you need to be elightened and it means you need to pass all these planes, thats my understanding and please correct me if i am wrong...it requires a lot of work and guidance...
So don't make fun of that chicken, she might be more enlightened than the statue:)
You start off by meditating on your sense of hearing. Your inner ears can pick up on the Sound of the LifeStream which comes all the way from the highest plane possible. You follow the Sound which is a deep venerating silence all the way up, higher and higher, until you reach the celestial music and higher still. It goes ALL the way up man. Seriously... I gave up on all these meditation techniques when I bumped into this one.
Relax. Have fun with it. Enjoy.
"Once, Kevatta, this train of thought arose in the awareness of a certain monk in this very community of monks: 'Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?' Then he attained to such a state of concentration that the way leading to the gods appeared in his centered mind. So he approached the gods of the retinue of the Four Great Kings and, on arrival, asked them, 'Friends, where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, the gods of the retinue of the Four Great Kings said to the monk, 'We also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there are the Four Great Kings who are higher and more sublime than we. They should know where the four great elements... cease without remainder.'
"So the monk approached the Four Great Kings and, on arrival, asked them, 'Friends, where do these four great elements... cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, the Four Great Kings said to the monk, 'We also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there are the gods of the Thirty-three who are higher and more sublime than we. They should know...'
"So the monk approached the gods of the Thirty-three and, on arrival, asked them, 'Friends, where do these four great elements... cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, the gods of the Thirty-three said to the monk, 'We also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there is Sakka, the ruler of the gods, who is higher and more sublime than we. He should know... '
"So the monk approached Sakka, the ruler of the gods, and, on arrival, asked him, 'Friend, where do these four great elements... cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, Sakka, the ruler of the gods, said to the monk, 'I also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there are the Yama gods who are higher and more sublime than I. They should know...'...
"The Yama gods said, 'We also don't know... But there is the god named Suyama... He should know...'...
"Suyama said, 'I also don't know... But there is the god named Santusita... He should know...'...
"Santusita said, 'I also don't know... But there are the Nimmanarati gods... They should know...'...
"The Nimmanarati gods said, 'We also don't know... But there is the god named Sunimmita... He should know...'...
"Sunimmita said, 'I also don't know... But there are the Paranimmitavasavatti gods... They should know...'...
"The Paranimmitavasavatti gods said, 'We also don't know... But there is the god named Paranimmita Vasavatti... He should know...'...
"So the monk approached the god Vasavatti and, on arrival, asked him, 'Friend, where do these four great elements... cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, the god Vasavatti said to the monk, 'I also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there are the gods of the retinue of Brahma who are higher and more sublime than I. They should know where the four great elements... cease without remainder'...
"Then the monk attained to such a state of concentration that the way leading to the gods of the retinue of Brahma appeared in his centered mind. So he approached the gods of the retinue of Brahma and, on arrival, asked them, 'Friends, where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, the gods of the retinue of Brahma said to the monk, 'We also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there is Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. He is higher and more sublime than we. He should know where the four great elements... cease without remainder.'
"'But where, friends, is the Great Brahma now?'
"'Monk, we also don't know where Brahma is or in what way Brahma is. But when signs appear, light shines forth, and a radiance appears, Brahma will appear. For these are the portents of Brahma's appearance: light shines forth and a radiance appears.'
"Then it was not long before Brahma appeared.
"So the monk approached the Great Brahma and, on arrival, said, 'Friend, where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be.'
A second time, the monk said to the Great Brahma, 'Friend, I didn't ask you if you were Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. I asked you where these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder.'
"A second time, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be.'
"A third time, the monk said to the Great Brahma, 'Friend, I didn't ask you if you were Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. I asked you where these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder.'
"Then the Great Brahma, taking the monk by the arm and leading him off to one side, said to him, 'These gods of the retinue of Brahma believe, "There is nothing that the Great Brahma does not know. There is nothing that the Great Brahma does not see. There is nothing of which the Great Brahma is unaware. There is nothing that the Great Brahma has not realized." That is why I did not say in their presence that I, too, don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. So you have acted wrongly, acted incorrectly, in bypassing the Blessed One in search of an answer to this question elsewhere. Go right back to the Blessed One and, on arrival, ask him this question. However he answers it, you should take it to heart.'
"Then — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — the monk disappeared from the Brahma world and immediately appeared in front of me. Having bowed down to me, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to me, 'Lord, where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?'
"When this was said, I said to him,[2] 'Once, monk, some sea-faring merchants took a shore-sighting bird and set sail in their ship. When they could not see the shore, they released the shore-sighting bird. It flew to the east, south, west, north, straight up, and to all the intermediate points of the compass. If it saw the shore in any direction, it flew there. If it did not see the shore in any direction, it returned right back to the ship. In the same way, monk, having gone as far as the Brahma world in search of an answer to your question, you have come right back to my presence.
"'Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:
Consciousness without feature,[1] without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'"
- Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta
I am curious how you interpret this story?
i have also seen a galaxy before, but i think these things just happen. i have never astral projected.
There is no higher level out there somewhere that isn't also right here, right now, all around you. You'll see.
Anyway... the higher planes are not "out there" remember? The higher planes are within. Part of you already exists there. You are connected from your lower chakras all the way up to your crown chakra. You are a a complete tiny little universe unto itself. Part of you *are* the higher planes.
So the way I learned how to get to my highest, most beautiful, most Love and Light with heavenly music playing and fantastic visuals of paradise place... was to listen to the Audible Life Stream or the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga (same thing).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surat_Shabd_Yoga
If you want to learn about the Audible Lifestream get the book called the Path of the Masters. It's the classic book to get.
http://www.amazon.com/Path-Masters-Science-audible-Stream/dp/1199613274
It's a very secret doctrine. It's one of those yogas that only your Master should teach you because they can transmit the Current. According to the doctrine the Yoga of the Audible Lifestream is the only way to get to the highest planes. Not because of any technique involved but because the Lifestream itself can be heard and followed the highest of Heavens. It's the road all Saints take to get back Home. It's very easy to do. You just listen and you are flooded with bliss. Takes a few months to develop your inner hearing but it comes easier and easier.
I also astral project about 2 times a week or so. So I've been to some really low places and some really high places. I think astral projection can be a wonderful aid to experiencing the Universe in it's beauty, grandeur, and enormity.
This is just a personal decision on my part but I really want to explore all the planes of existence before I finally find my Bodhi Tree if you take my meaning.
Alright... good luck. Get that book if you're really into this stuff.
Cya.
As I understand it while it is possible to perceive these finer planes , it is not necessary for enlightenment. It is better to use the developed mind to penetrate the nature of feelings, form, perceptions , will, consciousness to realize that they are mere processes and not self. Going outward into space or other planes can be very interesting but it does not lead to liberation. The penetration into impermanence and non-self are the things that lead to liberation from the 31 planes.
with metta,
But, for the purposes of this post, I will take this on myself as my own failing, and simply assume your reports are the bald truth.
After all, I know I may have developed a bias against remote viewers. Remote viewing was developed as a military procedure; it is the application of spiritual riches to spying and killing; and I consider it a gross perversion.
Also all of the remote viewers I've met were murdererous, deeply hateful people. A challenge to generate metta for such people. On the other hand, compassion is pretty easy, if you think of what they're doing to themselves.
Look -- what you're saying is that you've directly realized emptiness. I've seen such people called "arya" (aryas?). The next step they generally take, I've read, is to apply the wisdom and insight they gained from the emptiness experience to achieve stream entry (to become arhats).
If what you *really* want is stream entry and enlightenment, then use your supernatural powers, your remote viewing and astral travel and so forth, to dismantle and undo the illusion of self and others.
Look at the Diamond Sutra for authoritative advice in what this means.
My non-authoritative advice (non-authoritative because I am not enlightened) is to apply whatever ability you have, remote viewing or otherwise, to look inside yourself.
Look with specificity at what you are doing on the inside. You feel lust? Look at what you *do* to feel lust. You see a girl, perhaps, visually. You think about what kind of person she is. You imagine certain things happening. You feel certain feelings. You wonder if that would really happen, and this cues you to repeat the cycle.
--Maybe. I'm kinda guessing. But then you look at each part. You think about what kind of person she is. What does that mean? What her thoughts are. What she might think about you. And so on.
Remote-view yourself inside your own mental processes and look at what you are doing.
But -- and this is one thing, among others, that makes me wonder if you are not pulling our legs -- I hope I can be that blunt, in these circumstances -- if you are on the up and up, you sound *awfully* proud to me.
I mean, arguing with a meditation teacher is all well and good, if you honestly have grounds to believe that they've made a bad assumption and done in a spirit where you're trying to get them to speak relevantly to your problem.
But consider very seriously that they ARE speaking relevantly to your problem, and simply don't share some of the assumptions that YOU have that are causing your problem.
I've often argued with a certain meditation teacher I go to sometimes. But not because he treated me like a beginner!
Buddha bless,
Conrad.
Like the force field that protected the Death Star. So, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, you must use your powers to sneak inside your mind to find the pride generator, and when you get there, deactivate the force-field.
As a result, you will be able to consult the plans of the Death Star, and see how the Ego is constructed, by consulting the perplexing chirps and warbles of the dharma, personified by R2-D2.
With this insight, you will be able to launch a full-scale attack on the Death Star, perhaps with the assistance of various Bodhisattvas like Chewbacca and Han Solo. To be sure, your delusions will fight back, just as Darth Vader did.
But the dharma will warble its reassuring tones in your space helmet, and patch together your X-wing from any damage it may take during the battle, until you will be able to fire off the decisive photon torpedo that detonates at the Ego's core, causing the Death Star to explode.
Then, with all the Ewoks, the utter destruction of the Evil Empire will fill the sky, and as the pyrotechnics fade you'll look up and see--
I don't know if I am an arya (I guess this means stream entry?) or not! But I don't think I am...Anyhow I don't want to be hung up on these kind of thoughts but continue practicing. But you gave me some good insights. So I thank you for that.
My remote viewing abilities are not developed. I do not focus on these sort of things. It just happens without my control. It happens randomly. I am against working towards attaining such abilities myself. It causes a lot of distraction and pride. I also believe that playing with such abilities would cause you harm eventually. It is no different than black magic. I use Astral Projection sometimes but it helps my spiritual development. I even open a thread about it a while ago. But Astral Projection is very common. Everyone can do this. There is nothing special about it. People just don't believe it so they don't try it and so they can't do it.
You are right ...yes, I do have pride. But my biggest problem is Fear. Pride is managable for me (Hope I am not deluding myself). I watch my feelings carefully. When pride arises, I notice it and let it go. I sincerely believe that I am no special than anyone else, either spiritually or physically..
The reason that I criticize my meditation teacher is not because of my pride. It is because they provided no help. But on the other hand, I didn't ask any help. That is a mistake on my end. I just do what they tell me to do. And hope that the right time would come and I would ask my questions. Right now, , if I talk about these experiences they will either think that I am a liar or I have too much pride, just like you assumed. So I shut up!
Because I follow Zen, the answer is always the same: Just watch it and let it go. Maybe it is the right answer. So I do apply it... No matter what happens, I just let it go. But sometimes meditation experience becomes so overwhelming that I really need help. Thats why I open this thread. I had no other option. You guys are my sangha. I am glad I did because I got some good help. For instance, I am taking Milmoth''s advice and I am not meditating over the last 2 weeks or so. I am starting today tho...
Well, anyhow, thank you all for taking your time and writing me back. I wish you all the best!
Chan/Zen meditation doesn't have anything to do with remote viewing, supernatural powers, out of body experience, gaining abilities beyond other people or anything above the ordinary. All that stuff "magical stuff" your doing is actually HARMIng you instead of helping! Buddhism isn't about that!
The prerequisite to pursue any method that will be of benefit are based on you being honest with yourself. You need to attack your own Greed, Anger and Ignorance head on without lying to yourself. Without working on your morality and stablising your characters first your just increasing your own bad habits and wrong doings.
Your not following zen.
Your not following your teacher's instructions, by assuming you know better than other people and then blame it on the teacher shows that arrogance is poisoning you deeply! The 5 poisions are the root of your problem!
WHAT YOUR DOING NOW IS WRONG AND DANGEROUS!
From my personal experience:
My teacher taught us to practice compassionate and gratefulness meditation before anything else. Where we visualise how we only want whats good for the people we love, people we are neutral about, and people we hate, and build up from there. This is a good first step start killing all the dirty stuff in your system.