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Reincarnation: A Debate - Debate between Robert Thurman and Stephen Batchelor
DaltheJigsaw
Mountain View Veteran
The following debate took place in New York City in January 1997 at the home of Michael Marsh. Stephen Batchelor lives in England and is the Director of Studies at the Sharpham College for Buddhist Studies and Contemporary Inquiry. He is the translator of Shantideva's A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, as well as the author of several books, including the recently published Buddhism Without Beliefs (Riverhead). He is currently leading a Tricycle Retreat.
Robert Thurman is the Jey Tsong Khapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Studies at Columbia University, and a cofounder of Tibet House, New York; his translations include The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and works by Vimalikirti and Tsongkapa. Both Batchelor and Thurman are longtime Buddhist practitioners and former monks in the Gelugpa order of Tibetan Buddhism. In the dialogue, "Tricycle" represents questions and comments put forth by those present at the debate—staff members Helen Tworkov, Mary Talbot, and Lorraine Kisly, as well as Michael Marsh, Pico Iyer, and Mark Epstein. The photographs were taken by Sally Boon.
http://www.tricycle.com/feature/reincarnation-debate?page=0,0
Robert Thurman is the Jey Tsong Khapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Studies at Columbia University, and a cofounder of Tibet House, New York; his translations include The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and works by Vimalikirti and Tsongkapa. Both Batchelor and Thurman are longtime Buddhist practitioners and former monks in the Gelugpa order of Tibetan Buddhism. In the dialogue, "Tricycle" represents questions and comments put forth by those present at the debate—staff members Helen Tworkov, Mary Talbot, and Lorraine Kisly, as well as Michael Marsh, Pico Iyer, and Mark Epstein. The photographs were taken by Sally Boon.
http://www.tricycle.com/feature/reincarnation-debate?page=0,0
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Comments
Anytime!
But the methodology of Ian Stevenson was not very solid.
He always came late; he was never there – not a single time – when a child was experiencing or expressing its past life memory for the first time. The story was completed before they called him up.
He was doing his observations so to speak on “sites” which were trampled and altered by people who had some interest in the case, by tourists, and by time.
http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=482
http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=481
Granted, Batchelor was either going easy on a friend or not willing to fully engage in a debate. Anyone who has done some skeptical examination of the "evidence" Thurman presented as fact for reincarnation should have challenged him, both on what studies have shown and his interpretation. No, there are not thousands or hundreds or over forty or even one good example of past life memories. There are only people who claim there are, but properly conducted scientific examination always blows the supposed proof away.
The rest of the argument in the debate for reincarnation seems to be, in my reading, either because Thurman feels he needs that as a motivation to live a compassionate life today (which doesn't say much for his character, if true), or because the people who wrote the Sutras said Buddha believed in reincarnation so we have to believe the same. Funny, a Christian would say that without an eternal Heaven and Hell, we have no motivation to live a sin free life today, and that Jesus believed in a Heaven or Hell after death, not reincarnation, so we have to believe the same. So, both are arguments of equal weight and value. Which one is correct?
But it is interesting.
Good review of the article, Cinorjer, thank you.
Which means, of course, to center yourself in the middle (neither belief nor disbelief).
I do think that much of the Dharma loses its meaning without rebirth. As Thurman pointed out, the wish to save all sentient beings. Why would the Buddha teach on leading a life of renunciation or make dukkha a central tenant if all our suffering ends in death?
It seemed Batchelor was mostly agnostic on the idea of rebirth and in parts seemed to be arguing against reincarnation, the transmigration of the soul, and was mostly saying he didn't think it was necessary, not that it didn't exist altogether.
For me also Dharma loses much of its coherency when you throw rebirth away. I've read an interesting book by a guy who accompanied Stevenson on his research trips. He was quite sceptical at first but the things he saw made him really think (and me too).
dharma: "At least people who believe in rebirth don't go around making fun of those who do." Good point.
Probably the best known, if not most respected, collection of scientific data that appears to provide scientific proof that reincarnation is real, is the life's work of Dr. Ian Stevenson. Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols. Hypnosis, while useful in researching into past lives, is less reliable from a purely scientific perspective. In order to collect his data, Dr. Stevenson methodically documents the child's statements of a previous life. Then he identifies the deceased person the child remembers being, and verifies the facts of the deceased person's life that match the child's memory. He even matches birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records. His strict methods systematically rule out all possible "normal" explanations for the child’s memories.
Dr. Stevenson has devoted the last forty years to the scientific documentation of past life memories of children from all over the world. He has over 3000 cases in his files. Many people, including skeptics and scholars, agree that these cases offer the best evidence yet for reincarnation.
Dr. Stevenson's credentials are impeccable. He is a medical doctor and had many scholarly papers to his credit before he began paranormal research. He is the former head of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Virginia, and now is Director of the Division of Personality Studies at the University of Virginia.
In order to help the reader become familiar with Dr. Stevenson's work, a 1988 Omni Magazine Interview is reprinted below. Following the interview is a summary of one of Dr. Stevenson's most famous cases.
Stevenson's work has been discredited by sceptics.
"Don't know" is OK, but "until I see good reason, why should I believe?" (the sceptical position) is also acceptable, IMO.
There's another book, "Old Souls: Compelling Evidence From Children Who Remember Past Lives", by Tom Schroder. I haven't read this one, is anyone here familiar with it?
Dismissing Stevenson doesn't dismiss the question of children's past life memories. There have been other researchers.
I am curious how they discredited him. Can you please show me your reference so I can take a look at it.
At risk of having the conversations run in parallel, I've been thinking these two things lately:
1. Action at a distance changes everything. If consciousness/etc is simply information (which I'm not arguing it is or isn't), then this particular aspect of quantum theory makes rebirth much easier to digest.
2. If we're not truly separate as sentient beings (which seems to be a fundamental teaching of Buddhism), then isn't rebirth just a way of expressing that we live on in the lives of other beings once our conventional self's body is no longer alive? I mean, I mentioned this in the other thread, but my biggest hurdle about rebirth is probably the conflict between no-self/emptiness and the assertion that something is passed from one life to another in such a way that we need to act selfishly to get a favorable rebirth for ourselves.
I honestly think there is no serious proof of rebirth. The anecdotal evidence is no good. Or let’s say it is about as good as the evidence for alien abductions.
The method of the single most important investigator - Ian Stevenson - was crappy.
And even when he could explain this strange phenomenon of young children telling fantastic stories (!) the explanation raises more, and more complicated questions than it solves.
Outside the anecdotal evidence based on memories there isn’t a single fact which suggests this phenomenon even exists. Explaining how it could work is completely out of the picture.
But all of that is no proof that rebirth does not exist. It probably can not be disproved; at least I don’t see how it could be.
So when people want to believe in some idea which can not be disproved – and the idea does not do too much harm – why should that upset me?
I just don’t like the suggestion - and I once heard Ajahn Brahm talk like this – that “the proof is out there” and the world is just closing its eyes for it.
There is no proof. Believe what you want, but don’t say there is proof.
So the skeptic says; no, there is no proof.
The agnostic says; because there is no proof we don’t know.
(Plus: we have to be very careful with ideas which can not possibly be disproved and for which there is no positive evidence).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
What observation could be done that would be in conflict with “rebirth” being a fact?
False memories are easy to produce.
I’m not aware of any specific research into “false memories of past lives” though.
Just some fast hits on the subject:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome
The huge problem with trying to prove anything by running around collecting anecdotes is that all you're doing is collecting tales that seem to support your beliefs. What could he possibly find to disprove his belief? Nothing. All he could ever do is say this one particular story might have a different explanation, but there are lots more stories and something will eventually crop up. This is not evidence of anything but how a person's bias can create huge blind spots in their thinking. All the Doctor did was gather family stories. In every case he wrote about that other scientists were able to check on, they found the story as told exagerated the evidence for and mostly completely ignored obvious explanations of the "mystery".
He did find some interesting cultural trends that he refused to discuss, what he should have been doing all along. People from families and cultures that believed in reincarnation tended to have stories to support that belief, while families that believed in ghosts of the dead interacting with their loved ones developed stories to support that belief, and people from families that believed in a Heavenly destination tended to have Near Death Experience stories of guardian angels and visions of Heaven. It's fascinating how our perception is filtered through and reinforces our beliefs.
Look, I'm not trying to shake someone's belief in reincarnation or heaven or God or whatever. I'm just saying there is not and probably won't be any actual evidence of what by definition lies outside of the world we live in. It's not that I refuse to believe so I'm ignoring evidence. I'd love to have proof that my saintly Grandmother is happy in Heaven and watching over me like Mother claims is the case. I'd love to think people get what they deserved in a future life, at least, because rich, selfish, sadistic and powerful SOBs quite often die peaceful in bed surrounded by their wealth and family, in spite of what you want to believe about karma. It's not even just I don't know, but neither do you, and in fact it doesn't matter.
Greed, Anger, Ignorance/Delusion, Arrogance, and DOUBT
A Buddhist die with peace even if there is no rebirth.
A scientific debator die with fear during his last breath.
1. The first sure sign of our Dharma-Ending Age is that the role of the teacher and pupil is reversed in the teaching of the Dharma. Lay people are teaching the Dharma and the Sangha are the pupils, often not respected by their teachers, who think they are not knowledgeable. In many universities and colleges, Buddhism has now become an increasingly popular subject taught by people who may not even believe or practice what they profess. It has become just another subject among the myriads of subjects in the humanities department. When Buddhism is being imparted as academic knowledge and not as a way of life to attain Enlightenment, students may pass the course but will never attain Enlightenment.
2. The second sure sign of this Dharma-Ending Age is that non-Buddhist con artists crowning themselves as true Buddhas mushrooming everywhere and the masses listen to and believe their false claims, pouring billions of dollars into these scamming schemes, whereas on the other hand, when Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis speak the truth, the masses pay little attention or support them.
3. The third sure sign of this Dharma-Ending Age is that in the People's Republic of China, some Bhikkhus have given up celibacy. Upon their deaths, their sons and grandsons fight for the inheritance of the temples property and go to court. When Buddha Sakyamuni established the Sangha community, he also established a set of rules or precepts regulating the operation of the Sangha community, including the sharing of communal property. Accordingly, no communal property shall be owned by anyone because all Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis, like the Buddha, have renounced their worldly lives. This practice of keeping wives and raising children directly breach the Bhikkhu's precepts.
http://walkwithhaiyunjimeng-eng.blogspot.com/2009/12/signs-of-this-dharma-ending-age.html
Also many of his cases were from children who grew up in families or cultures that didn't accept rebirth, such as Christian.
Again, all I'm doing is explaining why skeptics shrug their shoulders at what believers see as proof. I have no problem with beliefs supported by faith only. For instance, I believe in the essential goodness of humanity buried somewhere under all that hate and fear, in spite of absolutely no proof and a history that seems to say the opposite.
And Chan_noob, if there's one universal human behavior, it's that people who overvalue tradition will complain that the present generation doesn't respect their elders, doesn't respect authority, and we need to return to that old time religion. The Buddhists of China once railed against this new "Chan" thing that the young people and false teachers embraced and swore it meant the end of the dharma. This isn't the first or last time Buddhism explodes onto the world stage and is given new life by a generation tired of rote ceremony. Tradition has its place, of course. The Dharma has survived thousands of years and across hundreds of cultures and languages, and I really think it can survive an active, intelligent mind. I don't think you have much to worry about, really.
Ghostly apparition caught on camera
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljcqzfN4QX1qgb7tk.jpg
http://myparanormal.tumblr.com/page/3
A ghost story in Anderson, South Carolina captured national attention two years ago when a video of a mysterious blur was caught on camera moving around in a credit union office in a Municipal Business Center. The center is new but the land dates back to the 1800s, when a large estate called Echo Hall stood on the present property.
Psychic Photography
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_liw9tmdji11qgb7tk.jpg
This photograph, taken in 1959 using an old-styled Polaroid land camera shows a little girl standing on the stairs of her home’s porch on north Damen Avenue. The street which is in Chicago, no longer exists but has raised eyebrows for years surrounding the topic of psychic photography.
Man experiences poltergeist activity
A man from Queensland has been experiencing some poltergeist activity in his home for the past six months and has been documenting over at his YouTube channel, collecting various footage from around his house and some EVP sessions. He gives his viewers a small glimpse of what is going on in his house but it is no measure to the affects it has on his family and day-to-day life as the poltergeist is a constant bother, opening cupboards, throwing things off shelves, shaking his closets and whatever other various noises it can make in order to get his attention.
http://myparanormal.tumblr.com/page/3
I must have a very different understanding of Buddhism to Thurman. To me, Buddhism is about how cultivating selflessness is the key to happiness. Isn't that enough motivation to not behave selfishly? What does the fact that Thurman doesn't get this say about Thurman's Buddhism?
Some may say that it is impossible or very difficult to prove that rebirth doesn't exist so you can't ask for it. But then they are demanding others to carry out this task. Nevertheless, there are some evidence indicating the existence of rebirth.
Now we just need to see some evidence from the other party. Also , they need to refute the evidence provided.
Burden of proof is on those trying to establish rebirth - because consciousness without material form, flying from one body to another, is against all observed phenomenon. IMO they haven't done so adequately (established proof) for the idea to be taken seriously, scientifically speaking.
The Noble Truths did not say that the problem was people need to accumulate good karma for the next reincarnation. Buddha said the problem was, people are suffering. Today. Right now. And the remedy to that is to eliminate selfish desires. Not for some future reward in a next life, but because people are suffering in this life.
"Without a God that judges, there's no reason for me not to go out and murder people."
"Without a next life where you're going to be punished for bad karma, there's no reason for me not to go out and murder people."
"Atheists can't be moral, because they have nothing to base their morals on."
If the only thing keeping you from going out and murdering, raping, and stealing is the fear of either God or a bad reincarnation, then please never, never stop believing in God or reincarnation.
For we normal people, the suffering we see in front of us is motivation enough to live by a moral code. Compassion does not require a belief in God or reincarnation, and quite often such beliefs get in the way of acting with compassion. I can't believe any Buddhist, including Thurman, doesn't agree with that, so he must have been unclear in what he was trying to say.
On reflection I suppose that, technically, rebirth is un-falsifiable.