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Does anyone else dread non-existence?
JetsFan366
Explorer
It's kindof funny - I grew up a catholic and compared to Hell, non-existence is great. But I don't know. There is something at the core of my being that dreads the idea. It's probably a pride thing, as, no matter how much I deny it vocally, the undercurrents of my thoughts hint at the belief that I am 'great' or bound for something 'great'.
I talk to some folks and they sincerely seem to not dread it, so I'm assuming it's me. Socrates seemed fine with it.
Gotta get over myself I guess.
I talk to some folks and they sincerely seem to not dread it, so I'm assuming it's me. Socrates seemed fine with it.
Gotta get over myself I guess. 0
Comments
Its just another thought projection of an absence. An absence that only makes sense when connecting a perceived something.
The problem began with the perception of a solid fixed thing. Thus something, thus nothing.
If there is neither something or nothing we have reality. Which is appearances of consciousness coming and going due to conditions.
What is lost, never was like how we thought. Thus absolutely nothing is lost.
If we lived in other cultures, such as Nepalese or Hindu cultures, and had been brought up in those environments, we'd be less concerned....
I find this to be a good article on Buddhist ideas of existence.
Just deal with the actual negative emotional reaction.
There is a button inside of you, a trigger that push this button, and a reaction (negative emotional reaction) once the button got pushed.
Trigger: I see/think of a dog.
reaction: Fear. (sensation of fear in the belly, fearful thought.
Trigger: I think of losing something i love
reaction: Fear and sadness. (sensation of fear and sadness in the belly, sad and fearful thought.)
Trigger: I think of non-existence
reaction: Fear (or whatever else). (sensation of fear in the belly, fearful thought.)
perhaps deal with the actual physical phenomena, not the idea that triggers it.
lose the knee jerk reactions and the concepts will be much clearer.
Thanks to everyone for the post, here are some replies:
@taiyaki - but couldn't you make a similar argument about pain? And there are very very few people who are so enlightened that pain does not affect them, and all the sophistry one might weave isn't going to suddenly make someone no longer affected by it.
@lamaramadingdong, @Zayl - I know - my fears are not rational. Like I said, it's just more this core dread almost like a phobia.
@federica - Perhaps. But people can be conditioned to believe and value almost anything. I think it's safe to say that we have an in-grained fear of death leftover from evolution in our reptilian brain that we start out with as children. Every one of our evolutionary ancestors had it as well, otherwise we wouldn't have evolved. Also, much of the Buddhism practiced by Nepalese and Hindus subscribes to reincarnation, I believe. And if I believed in it, I wouldn't be afraid of dying. Perhaps I would be afraid of reaching Nirvana and exiting from the dukkha cycle (samsara?) though...
@person - I know that feeling! Paradoxically, I've craved it as well many times...
@porpoise - close to the heart of what I feel
@seeker - thank you! Though that's kindof what I'm getting at when I say obscure/abstract...
Sensations arise do to karmic conditions. And even us calling it pain is due to karmic conditions.
If pain was inherently pain it could not change. If pain objectively existed it could not be in flux. Pain comes in waves of sensations. It is not consistent.
Thus if we change the conditions we change the perception of pain. Pain cannot exist apart from the projection on the basis of sensations.
Basically anything that appears in experience cannot have the status we attribute to it. Be it existence, non existence, both or neither. That which exists is apparent and real but like sand in the hands it cannot be grasped as an entity that has any sort of inherent existence. Why? Because it arises due to conditions being met and it ceases when conditions are not met.
Change your perception and you change everything.
So, while I don't dispute your logic, it's not the whole picture. I guess it depends on the definition of 'believe'. There are things you can believe with your rational mind that don't convince the other parts. Hypnotism seems to be a way to convince all parts of your mind. Ok, now I'm going off in a tangent
Assuming this is not just a psychotic tremor of some sort (see a shrink), then it is an experience that needs to be digested, to be woven into the ordinary tapestry of life. This doesn't happen overnight and is a good reason for those who practice meditation to keep up a meditation practice. Meditation allows you to -- so to speak -- chew your food. If meditation is too scary at the moment, then lay off it for a while ... watch TV or something. If not, then do a little meditation every day. There is no rush to this. You are not trying to choke down a whole chicken in a single mouthful. You are not trying to suppress or escape the fears. Just chew. Just do your meditation practice.
Bit by bit, what was so odd and so spooky becomes easier and less confounding. It's nothing out of the ordinary. Bit by bit, the fear eases up.
Take your time. There is no cliff to fall off. Take your time and treat twaitsfan with a firm but gentle respect.
Or you can apply it to your life and in meditation.
To be honest with you it would be awesome if you really spent some serious time in meditation and examine your experience.
For instance you could start by examining non-existence. Non existence of what exactly? What do you consider yourself to be? Examine all of this in your life and on the cushion.
Good luck!
Also I see a big difference between respecting death and fearing it. I respect that putting my finger in a fuze socket will fry me but I don't fear fuze sockets. Fearing death will only cause anxiety and over-cautiousness. It isn't going anywhere whether we like it or not so there isn't too much use worrying about it.
My opinion is that these individual selves are just an illusion anyways but not that we are unreal. The illusion is that of being seperate, not being, lol.
Subjectively we cease to exist but objectively, there is no-thing to lose.
Day-mares!
Many other religions go from the premise that there is a discreet, ongoing "you", separate from all others and from god. "You" will go to heaven or hell, and "you" can be forgiven by god or condemned to eternal hellfire and brimstone (what the heck is brimstone anyway?). They presuppose that "you" are going to sit on a cloud in the sky for the rest of eternity, or that "you" will be hopping around on hot rocks for the rest of eternity (with or without seven virgins).
When the first proto-human developed a brain capable of looking at a dead body and realizing that could also happen to him or her, our race started a quiet journey of dispair and a search for immortality. Beliefs sprang up that death is not the end and became comforting blankets against the grave. Some seek immortality in our children, or creating fame in one way or another. All comforting thoughts that hold back the abyss.
But for some of us, we understand the end is there, and that's the way it should be. Every story has to have an end. Every book has to have a final page. We learn to focus on what comes before death as the important thing. We don't embrace death, any more than we reject life. We accept it all as one big package to be experienced while it lasts.
Make a point to find a nice, quiet cemetary on a nice day for a walk and some meditation and read the headstones. Imagine the people who lived and died and left this little memorial behind. Some were babies, some old, some were parents and maybe some were bad or good people. They were all people, and one way or another, their life, short or long, made a difference in the world.
It's not morbid. It's natural to dread the abyss. Let it come in its own time, the ending to your life's story. Farewells are meant to be sad. For now, we have way too much work to do making the living part of our journey a good one.
When something is made then the reaction to that something is always aversion or attachment. I like this, i don't like this.
But if you don't make any stories or attach to anything then everything is left as it is. What is there to add or take away? Even if there is any reaction it is just habit. Why bother? Who bothers?
The sunshines regardless.
sense-pleasure clinging (kamupadana)
wrong-view clinging (ditthupadana)
rites-and-rituals clinging (silabbatupadana)
self-doctrine clinging (attavadupadana).
As a whole I believe it scares us greatly, therefore we don't talk about it, we dress up corpses and say they are "sleeping".
We divert ourselves with all manner of distractions.
This knowledge of death is our underlying angst. If we stare into the mirror too long we realize the emptiness behind it all. Most people can't bear to look.
Some will look and wonder what's the point, pity. Others will look and see complete freedom.
elephants walking to their cemetery before dying comes to mind...
and if they do this, it would seem to be a fairly reasonable assumption that a whole lot of other animals are doing it too.
-------->
end of interlude!
edit:
this turned out to be a myth...
no elephant graveyards after all...
This passage from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta is relevant:
"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'
"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
We are all afraid of pain and being helpless and being sick and being injured. How we face that fear is about individual character, not about our beliefs. If someone comes at me with a knife, I'm afraid of the knife no matter what my beliefs about what happens after I'm dead. What I do because of that fear, freeze or run or fight, depends on so many factors that have nothing to do with beliefs.
I do believe you're on to something, though. Maybe folks kinda mistake the motivation for our reactions to death. It's not fear of dying, but desire to continue living forever that we're talking about here. Also mixed with this is the desire not to be separated from the people and things we love. When a devout Christian talks about Heaven in personal terms, it's all about not suffering any more and rejoining all the dead loved ones who we wish were still in our lives. It's not really about the fear of Hell or getting to bask in God's glow, although they do throw that in.
Only when we include the desire to continue forever does a universe of infinite reincarnations seem attractove. It was meant to be a trap that people long to escape from. After all, the rules of karma as claimed to power the process are designed to make it almost impossible to escape.
It was very sad to see this creature honking back and looking for its mother.
I love elephants.
I honestly don't think I can say I fear or invite oblivion. I am very curious as to what will happen next. Not just when I leave this existance but in this existence as well.
We are natural born explorers and whether there is a reason for that or not could be beside the point.
We are born to go.
Is not going even an option?
some people say that even 'not choosing' is a choice, but the way I see it, this will be the ultimate 'no choice but to....' moment.
I'm going to try to aim.
29. And going to the charnel ground,
When shall I compare
My body with the dry bones there,
So soon to fall to nothing, all alike?
30. This form of mine, this very flesh,
Is soon to give out such a stench
That even jackals won't come close-
For that indeed is all its destiny
31. This body, now so whole and integral,
This flesh and bone that life has knit together,
Will drift apart, disintigrate.
And how much more will friend depart from friend?
32. Alone we're born, alone we come into the world,
And when we die, alone we pass away.
For no one shares our fate, and none our suffering.
So what are they to me, such "friends" and all their hindrances?
-Shantideva The Bodhisattva's Way of Life chaper 8 - Meditation
I think there is also this assumption among some, including those who do subscribe to rebirth, that our future lives will generally be in positive and happy conditions similar to the ones we find ourselves in in this life.
It's easy to get swept up in harmful ways and follow what in the short term may seem to protect us but in the long run causes harm, doing what is best for our long term happiness requires reflection and effort. Give me oblivion over this grim fate. Thank goodness there's a 3rd noble truth.
Then it's a sport.
Not facing death is harder.
realize that time is short. we can die whenever. it is uncertain.
in the contrasting face of death what matters? nothing matters except our spiritual practice, how kind we've been to others, how much we served others.
face death nakedly. out of this if done right should come a more realistic and compassionate point of view.
though death is another karmic appearance based on conditions, one must not worry in attachment or aversion. for there was nothing to lose but a thought. if we were to allow this to penetrate our minds and hearts.
how happy and peaceful we would be. how able to serve others.
time for some death meditation. =]
That comment was tremendously reassuring, thank you