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Don't suffer fools gladly?

FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
I have heard two Zen Buddhists say that they don't suffer fools gladly ... said as if this was a good thing.
With my tradition being Tibetan Buddhism (my teacher is a lama), at first I was shocked as this seemed so very non-compassionate. I thought "Harumph! What kind of Buddhist are they?"
But when I heard a second one say this, I began to wonder if this was a "short-hand" way of getting across some idea.]
Perhaps there is a story that this concept ties into. Perhaps it is only that I do not understand what this means to Zen Buddhists.
If anyone knows, please "enlighten" me. Thanks.

Comments

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    (IMH Zen O)... Not suffering fools gladly just speaks of the current limit of one's meditation.
    lobster
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    how said:

    (IMH Zen O)... Not suffering fools gladly just speaks of the current limit of one's meditation.

    I think @how is correct and hence must freely admit how limited my meditation is. But to me, the question is not so much (as possibly inferred from the above), "how then do I become unlimited?" as it is this: Since limitation is inescapable, with what honesty can I escape?

    For example: I dislike anchovies. I mean I really don't like them. If someone, as an offering at lunch, were to put anchovies in front of me, I would probably eat them. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't like them and I feel no inclination to pretend or aspire to a great love of something I dislike. Simultaneously, I also would never suggest that because I dislike anchovies, everyone else should or could feel the same.

    And it is the same with fools. The yardstick I try to keep in mind as regards people I consider to be fools was spelled out for me by an army chaplain who once gave our platoon one of those endlessly boring training lectures the military is fond of. In the midst of his talk, he remarked, off-handedly, "If a man gets up and says anything -- anything at all -- there will always be 20 good men to stand up behind him." Of course living a life according to what the majority or even a large number of people say is pretty thin tea, but as a social yardstick, it may have some uses. The once-popular bumper sticker is also a good reminder: "Don't believe everything you think." This is not an invitation not to think -- it is an invitation to keep a close eye on believing what you think.

    To enter into meditation is, in one sense, to move from the limited to the unlimited ... an activity whose directions point towards the widest possible expression of individual existence, so to speak. We practice and in so doing, attend to the limited attachments that can trip anyone up. Deeper and deeper we go, wider and wider we get... not in some static, shazzam, sense but in a living, breathing experience. And the wider we get, the more our narrowness is seen not so much as something to believe, but simply as part and parcel of what, for lack of a better word, is sometimes called unlimited. It is not an excuse for immoral or self-serving behavior ... it is just a more wide-screen existence. "Wide" and "narrow," "limited" and "unlimited" are not so necessary to believe. Possible? Yes. Necessary? No.

    For those inclined to scripture (which I generally dislike quoting), Gautama is alleged in The Dhammapada to have said about fools (sorry if I haven't got the quote bang on): "His heart is restless after many flowers./Before he can pick them all, he is dead." Anyone can recognize his or her own foolishness in the quote. D'oh. But to be downhearted or critical on account of a "limited" meditation or an endless "foolishness" is not so much the point. Practice leads anyone who sticks with it into the very foolish world he or she may have sought in some way to escape through practice in the first place. The object of practice is not to escape being a fool, but rather to be an attentive and responsible fool ... over and over and over again. Be a fool ... wholeheartedly. If a mistake is made, correct it. Over and over again.

    Do I suffer fools gladly? Nope. Foolishness deserves to be noticed and called out whether within or without. And if I make a mistake, I hope I will have the good grace and common sense to correct it. Sometimes I can. Sometimes not.

    What is anyone to do short of living a whole-hearted life in this fool's paradise?

    Sorry for the ramble.
    JeffreytmottesFoibleFull
  • We've been warned by all of the major religions to avoid toxic people. Not suffering fools is the same thing.
  • No we only avoid them if we cannot handle them. So say you are doing a dharma outreach to prisoners. A Lama probably could do that, but they would adapt different techniques than with a sangha of very well mannered and tame adults.

    Buddhism is about rescuing the drowning, but you don't want them to drag you down. Still there is the Bodhisattva vow which some have taken, not me yet.
    Sile
  • We've been warned by all of the major religions to avoid toxic people. Not suffering fools is the same thing.
    Since when?
    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    The Nazarene Bodhisatva.
    Should you now be considered a fool, toxic or a precious jewel? :scratch:
  • But the fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round.

    ~Beetles
    tmottesSileMaryAnne
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't agree that everyone needs to be respected.
    pegembaraRebeccaS
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Vinlyn

    Your definition of respect is undoubtedly more accurate than mine.
    I use it in a Dharmic sense as a reminder.

    When I use the word respect I think of it as facing someone fully, recognizing their innate Buddha nature and letting meditation take the lead.

    Of course just an hour before I used the word F***wits to describe to my partner some of my days interactions.

    Hhhhmmmm.



  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @how...yes, definition is key here. I was using the rather standard definition of: A feeling of admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

    So, for example, mass murderers would not earn my respect. Child molesters would not earn my respect. Mitt...oh, forget about that one. :D

    I've always felt that respect needs to be earned. So when I first meet someone, for me it is a blank slate. What they do from that point forward determines whether they receive my respect or my disdain, or something in between.

    And, I must admit I have been wrong about people. I remember a counselor who came to our school. I had an immediate and intense dislike for him. Later, we became friends, and I now think very highly of him. And, it was my misjudgement that caused the problem.

  • edited October 2012
    Trillion said:

    IMO Buddhism is the art of suffering fools gladly.

    No, that's American politics.
    FoibleFulllobsterDairyLama
  • Being elitist or selective is very necessary until one can discriminate between the wisdom and the expression. It is for example impossible for most of us to associate with the most afflicted in society and see the 'Bodhisattva within'.
    It is also very easy to be distracted by even very normal life experiences. We have to guard our companionship, sense doors and intake.

    The great Saints, Bodhisattvas would hang out with human dross (there is even hope for me), corpses and imaginary friends. Only a fool would try to imitate their behaviour prematurely.

    Be kind to The Fool, they too wish to be happy . . . :)
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Just the other night I listened to a talk (by Gangaji from internet) and it started out with the honesty that is in admitting that we don’t like people. It is good honesty, but it is also superficial. It keeps the deeper emotion away from us, as it is about them; the fools.

    The next level of investigation is; why do I dislike those people; what do they trigger in me; what is it that I wish to avoid.
    The talk went on about how we all feel worthless deep inside; and how we don’t want to be there; and cover that up with lies about what we are (advanced spiritual people maybe?).
    When we have the courage to face the truth though, next thing we are ready for entering into the abyss of being nothingness.

    I’m not going to repeat the whole speech, but I think you get the idea.
    Maybe those Zen Buddhists were joking; maybe they were shallow; I don’t know.
    lobster
  • ALL people should be respected, but some behaviours should not.
    lobsterZero
  • I have no reliable way of deciding who is a fool and who is not.
    I have met people who strike me as extremely foolish in some particulars and extremely wise in others. We are all a mixture of innate wisdom on the one hand and faulty learning on the other.Everyone we meet literally embodies some wise or foolish aspect of our selves.
    Zero
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    pegembara said:

    In this teaching, the Buddha advised not to associate with fools, but to associate with the wise. So, unless one is well established on the path, it is important to heed this advice. Having said that, an enlightened person who knows cause and effect will never regard anyone as "fools".

    Yes, I think that's a good explanation.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    It not a zen thing really. It's from the christian Bible actually.
  • You would think that the enlightened have respect for everyone . . . except themselves. . . maybe . . .
    The Sufi saints regularly refer to themselves as idiots or fools. In part this is because in the eyes of the worldly they are madmen, another appellation they use. :)
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