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How Do You Know For Certain Karma Exists

I have pondered Karma and its' existence for some time. I am not sure of it. I would like to hear instances where people have experienced evidence that proves it exists.

I wonder about Karma for people who can be heartless and they just appear to continue without a care.
I wonder about decisions made by countries, such as mine. There have been decisions made that are warlike in this country, yet we seem to plug along happy with our situation. We have not been made accountable for the wrongs we have done, yet countries which have only struggled to survive, and not been aggressive, continue to suffer.

I could also mention several other "developed" nations that have been very aggressive and selfish, yet it seems to continue on as if nothing has happened.

For the Karma believers, what has happened that makes you believe in it?
DaltheJigsaw
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Comments

  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Shut your hand in the door.

    Pain.

    Boom! Karma.

    There is a consequence to every action. It's just physics. It might not meet your personal, internal standard for justice, you might not even be able to see it, but it's undeniably there.

    Think of that super boiled water - water boiled above 100 degrees. It doesn't bubble, or look like it's boiling at all. It looks like a regular glass of water. It appears that heating it has had no effect on it whatsoever, and the you disturb it... BIG boom. It was boiling all along, you just couldn't tell.
    FoibleFull
  • RebeccaS said:

    Shut your hand in the door.

    Pain.

    Boom! Karma.

    There is a consequence to every action. It's just physics. It might not meet your personal, internal standard for justice, you might not even be able to see it, but it's undeniably there.

    Think of that super boiled water - water boiled above 100 degrees. It doesn't bubble, or look like it's boiling at all. It looks like a regular glass of water. It appears that heating it has had no effect on it whatsoever, and the you disturb it... BIG boom. It was boiling all along, you just couldn't tell.

    Does that mean you must have blind faith that it does? Even boiling water has an explanation, and is predictable. Karma? Not so much.

  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    Karma isn't really a substance that floats around, it's more like a framework for understanding how intention and real-life-results are related in the moral-sphere.

    That said, I have had some experiences that make me take stock in the idea more seriously. I can think of a few examples, although I can't certify that they are related, to me the relationship is clear in retrospect.

    In it's simplest rendition one might say "you reap what you sow" ... that is "you get what you give" ... and to truly receive something, you must give or provide to someone else first. But you know, it's more about the intention behind it, if you give people rides to help them out you will [in the future] reap a nice ride, a car, cool tractor when you need it, whatever..


    Again, I'm hesitant to share and seem like i'm tooting my own horn, but if it helps someone look more seriously into Karma then I think it is worth it.

    Once, I was out on the town in Pittsburgh with a close friend. The weather was pretty nice. This nice girl walking in front of us and one of her sandals went Snap! The string/cord on it broke and she was down a left-sandal. I had just got this pair of slip-on shoes that were rather comfy and, having read a bit about Buddhism in the days prior I was deeply motivated to give her my shoes. I was like "here" and I stepped out of my shoes. She was mostly in disbelief and tried to refuse accepting them. But I said take them and just started walking away. My friend caught up to me and was like "uh she's still just looking at us in shock." I didn't bother to turn around and actually had a really fun time avoiding broken glass and walking bare foot home. My friend took off his shoes and did the same, because he is an awesome friend.

    When we got back to my friend's pad my friend said that he was moved by what happened and straight-up gave me his favorite pair of shoes on the spot. They fit perfectly and I was really thankful.

    Nowadays there are way more shoes in my house than I remember buying, there is quite a variety of footwear here, and only recently did I start to piece together that the episode had a large role to play, at least to me it fits in perfectly with my experience.

    Karma is like that; it's also something you can't contemplate to figure out, but it can be very clear in retrospect. The original intention wasn't to get more shoes to cover my feet, but to help someone in need. Stay alert and Give. Life is too short for anything else.
    Jeffrey
  • RebeccaS said:

    Shut your hand in the door.

    Pain.

    Boom! Karma.

    There is a consequence to every action. It's just physics. It might not meet your personal, internal standard for justice, you might not even be able to see it, but it's undeniably there.

    Think of that super boiled water - water boiled above 100 degrees. It doesn't bubble, or look like it's boiling at all. It looks like a regular glass of water. It appears that heating it has had no effect on it whatsoever, and the you disturb it... BIG boom. It was boiling all along, you just couldn't tell.

    Does that mean you must have blind faith that it does? Even boiling water has an explanation, and is predictable. Karma? Not so much.

    I don't think so. It just seems pretty obvious and I think the explanation is pretty simple - every action has a consequence. It might not be predictable, no, because of the vast multitude of factors that influence an outcome, but just because it's unpredictable doesn't really change anything.
  • One way to examine is in meditation.

    By how we look at suffering it creates a different outcome.

    So play with the conditions and you get a different effect.

    For instance if one at stress in the body with the lens of loving-kindness then the stress starts to break down and dissolve. Not only this the self sense becomes more amorphous.

    If one were to have aversion towards the stress then the stress solidifies and intensifies. The self sense also becomes more solid.

    The key insight is dependent origination. Everything depends on conditions, thus empty of inherent existence.

    This seeing and insight if cultivated and deepened can lead one towards total cessation of fabrication, which is freedom.

    The ontological status of Karma is irrelevant. What is comes down to is what works?

    There are three models on can use. God or predetermination. Chaos or Nihilism. Karma or causality.

    All are ultimately empty of inherent existence. Only one leads if used properly to the cessation of fabrication.

    Choose wisely, practice hard.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    For me it is one of those things that, I don't worry about too much as a big picture. I don't see a reason to assign it or compartmentalize it. It reminds me too much of my Christian upbringing with the whole "If God can do anything why didn't he protect those people from the plane crash?" conundrum. Every moment of your life generates karma. You never know when it'll come back, it might be immediately, it might be lifetimes from now. You just don't know. Just like with rebirth. We don't know. So, I believe in it but I concentrate on the karma I generate on an immediate basis while at the same time keeping in mind how it'll spread and affect lives later on, like my children's relationships with their eventual children, etc.

    I don't believe countries as a whole gain karma. They aren't, in themselves, conscious entities. The people make the decisions in those countries, absolutely. Just being president doesn't exempt one from karma. But the country as a whole, no. I would hope not. Why should I be punished because I live in a country where congress voted to go to war and I got no say?
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2012

    I have pondered Karma and its' existence for some time. I am not sure of it. I would like to hear instances where people have experienced evidence that proves it exists.

    ...

    For the Karma believers, what has happened that makes you believe in it?

    In the Suttas, the Buddha defines kamma as intentional actions of body, speech, and mind (AN 6.63) that have the potential to produce certain results, which, in turn, have the potential to produce pleasant, painful, both pleasant and painful, or neutral feelings (AN 4.235). The word itself simply means 'action,' and the basic premise is that there's a cause and effect relationship between our actions and how they're experienced.

    To give one real-life example, I got into an argument with my girlfriend not too long ago. While angry, I said something mean to be hurtful because I was hurting. Afterwards, I felt very bad about doing so because of the harm my angry words had caused. In this case, my unskillful action of saying something out of anger (kamma) resulted in both of us feeling hurt and unhappy (vipaka); so I can definitely say that, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, I experienced feelings that were painful, "like those of the beings in hell" as per AN 4.235.

    So for me, it's not so much believing in kamma as seeing it in action (no pun intended).

    I wonder about Karma for people who can be heartless and they just appear to continue without a care.
    I wonder about decisions made by countries, such as mine. There have been decisions made that are warlike in this country, yet we seem to plug along happy with our situation. We have not been made accountable for the wrongs we have done, yet countries which have only struggled to survive, and not been aggressive, continue to suffer.

    I could also mention several other "developed" nations that have been very aggressive and selfish, yet it seems to continue on as if nothing has happened.

    I don't think I can sufficiently answer this part beyond saying that, from the Theravadin perspective, (1) kamma primarily deals with individuals and not collectives and (2) it doesn't always ripen right away. The precise working out of the results of kamma, however, are difficult to determine due to the complexity of causality and the myriad of causes and conditions, both internal and external, that go into our experience of the world.
    RebeccaSseeker242
  • Karma means that the triple gem is not just from your side. The universe is talking back. This is how it is that your mindset is helpful. You have a motive to be a better person or perhaps even realize enlightenment. If you are paying attention you get messages from the world, opportunities. I seem to think something like that but it is hard to explain. But simply put whatever you are *doing* you will get a signal back from the universe. If you are going in the right direction you will know it and if you are going in the wrong direction you will know it.
    karasti
  • NMADDPNMADDP SUN Diego, California Veteran
    Read the "Liao-Fan's Four Lessons." It is about changing destiny for the better (karma).

    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/9779/another-good-and-interesting-book-liao-fans-four-lessons/p1

  • Only you can answer that question on karma... As well as this question... How do you know for certain that you exist?

    For me these questions don't need to be answered since we already know the answers...

    "Open your heart and free you your mind and the Truth will be presented to you"
    Jeffrey
  • I think that if you are struck by lightning it is meaningless unless you find a meaning. So for me karma is about me and how I can relate to the world.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Karma is action and effect :)

    So if you've ever experience an effect of an action you've got Karma !
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I see people in my life constantly getting outcomes or having reactions from people in the same ways over and over again seemingly in spite of their actions or behavior. For some things always work out and for others things are always difficult. There doesn't appear to be much of a difference in the way they approach things or a "logical explanation" for why, but karma makes sense as an explanation.

    Plus I've seen in my own life where I change my attitude or behavior and sometime later situations and outcomes change.

    But I'm just a silly, gullible, illogical person who sees what he wants to see.
  • This is a very good book, excellent for beginners or anyone really, which helped me with understanding karma:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Exploring-Karma-Rebirth-Nagapriya/dp/1899579613/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352848846&sr=1-6

    I think the concept of karma can get very complex, and different schools of Buddhism will differ on the small print, but this book made sense to me.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2012



    I wonder about Karma for people who can be heartless and they just appear to continue without a care.

    This is the $50,000 question. Why do some of the con artists and fraudsters seem to get away with it? There are two answers. 1) Karma works in mysterious ways. We can't divine it from our limited human perspective. 2) This is where rebirth comes in. Have faith the selfish and cruel will get nailed in future rebirths. I might also add: 3) Such people present an opportunity to cultivate a deeper compassion. These people are clearly misguided, deluded, and so are deserving of compassion. Compassion for one's enemies and for evil-doers is the ultimate form of compassion.
    I wonder about decisions made by countries, such as mine. There have been decisions made that are warlike in this country, yet we seem to plug along happy with our situation.
    This is something I've wondered, too. Is there such a thing as collective karma, national karma? Why has Russia always struggled so miserably, while the US has enjoyed prosperity? (I disagree that we're currently plugging along happily. The karmic seeds of our actions are catching up with us.) The Lamrim (a Tibetan text) says that different countries, different parts of the world have more suffering than others because there need to be places where those with "bad karma" are reborn, to learn their lessons and work off their "bad karma". There also need to be places where life generally is easier, for people with "good karma" to be born into. Even so, as I'm sure we've all noticed, there can be extreme suffering anywhere, even in countries/regions with a high standard of living.

    I don't know if this helps, OP, but it's all I've got. :)

    JeffreyFoibleFull
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    Shut your hand in the door.

    Pain.

    Boom! Karma.

    There is a consequence to every action. It's just physics. It might not meet your personal, internal standard for justice, you might not even be able to see it, but it's undeniably there.

    Think of that super boiled water - water boiled above 100 degrees. It doesn't bubble, or look like it's boiling at all. It looks like a regular glass of water. It appears that heating it has had no effect on it whatsoever, and the you disturb it... BIG boom. It was boiling all along, you just couldn't tell.

    Perhaps. But what happens with karma to a person who is amoral?

  • Dakini said:

    The Lamrim (a Tibetan text) says that different countries, different parts of the world have more suffering than others because there need to be places where those with "bad karma" are reborn, to learn their lessons and work off their "bad karma".

    I don't like this one bit. I don't think it's right either. So, imagine a famine in Africa - hundreds of thousands of men, women and children are starving to death.

    Do we try to help? If we do help them, then we're just prolonging their suffering because they need to burn off their bad karma, so out of compassion we should just let them starve?

    Nope, that doesn't sound right to me. Karma isn't some cosmic force of justice - like a God - who dishes out punishments; there's more to it. Some views are very mechanical; I heard a Tibetan monk saying that if our wallet gets stolen, it means we have stolen a wallet in this, or a previous life. That doesn't make sense to me either.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Tosh said:

    Dakini said:

    The Lamrim (a Tibetan text) says that different countries, different parts of the world have more suffering than others because there need to be places where those with "bad karma" are reborn, to learn their lessons and work off their "bad karma".

    I don't like this one bit. I don't think it's right either. So, imagine a famine in Africa - hundreds of thousands of men, women and children are starving to death.

    Do we try to help? If we do help them, then we're just prolonging their suffering because they need to burn off their bad karma, so out of compassion we should just let them starve?

    Nope, that doesn't sound right to me. Karma isn't some cosmic force of justice - like a God - who dishes out punishments; there's more to it. Some views are very mechanical; I heard a Tibetan monk saying that if our wallet gets stolen, it means we have stolen a wallet in this, or a previous life. That doesn't make sense to me either.
    Yeah, I've heard this often too. I don't think it means karma isn't some cosmic force only that this linear, mechanical view isn't really right.

    I had it explained to me early on by a geshe that karma isn't the same as fate. Say someone is drowning we could say thats their karma and let them drown. But he said if we jumped in and saved them then that would also be their karma. So inaction or apathy towards suffering isn't correct. I took that teaching to heart and have come to the idea that karma depends upon past action but it only comes to fruition based upon current circumstances. Or for example we may have a lot of positive karma to be wealthy but if we sit on our butts and don't get an education or work or even buy a lottery ticket it probably won't ripen.
    ToshJeffrey
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Tosh said:

    Dakini said:

    The Lamrim (a Tibetan text) says that different countries, different parts of the world have more suffering than others because there need to be places where those with "bad karma" are reborn, to learn their lessons and work off their "bad karma".

    I don't like this one bit. I don't think it's right either. So, imagine a famine in Africa - hundreds of thousands of men, women and children are starving to death.

    Do we try to help? If we do help them, then we're just prolonging their suffering because they need to burn off their bad karma, so out of compassion we should just let them starve?
    I know, I hear ya. It's been misinterpreted by a certain racist Western lama to say, basically, "they deserve what they get". But if we help, that can also be their karma. Anyway, I didn't make it up, that's what the Lamrim says. Like the Buddha said...test the teachings.

    Tosh
  • From memory, I'm sure this 'burning off karma' malarkey was old Brahmanical thought.

    Isn't there a sutra where a couple of dog ascetics asked the Buddha what they would be reborn as if they practised really hard at being dogs.

    And the Buddha replied, "A dog probably!" (paraphrased).

    But the old Brahmanical thinking was that they could burn off their negative karma by tough ascetic practises, like dog asceticism, so that they would get a better future rebirth.

    However, it seems the Buddha rubbished this.

    Can anyone help me with more detail?
  • Tosh said:

    From memory, I'm sure this 'burning off karma' malarkey was old Brahmanical thought.

    Isn't there a sutra where a couple of dog ascetics asked the Buddha what they would be reborn as if they practised really hard at being dogs.

    And the Buddha replied, "A dog probably!" (paraphrased).

    But the old Brahmanical thinking was that they could burn off their negative karma by tough ascetic practises, like dog asceticism, so that they would get a better future rebirth.

    However, it seems the Buddha rubbished this.

    Can anyone help me with more detail?

    Cool, Tosh. I haven't heard that story. But I would say that maybe the Buddha's point was that they shouldn't be practicing hard at being dogs, they should be practicing the dharma, in their doggie way.

    Eh? :)

    Tosh
  • I'm pretty sure that book I linked above gives a good account of the evolution of karmic thought; from the Brahmanical where it was thought that just performing ceremonies or tough ascetic practises could create good karma or burn off bad karma.

    The Buddha taught that this wasn't so, and linked karma to intentional actions (and in Buddhism, thinking is an action too).

    I'm such a bad student though; I'm feeling very vague. Maybe I shouldn't be posting at all here 'cos I know only a surface knowledge of stuff that I've actually formally studied.

    Take what I say with a pinch of salt.

    Apologies.
  • Burning off karma happens when life gives lemons and you make lemonade. So it transforms the seeds in the mind.

    There are infinite white and black seeds and transformation karma is making the black seeds go down and the white ones ripen. (unrelated to skin of course.. you could say green or red seeds).

    Exactly because there are infinite seeds only practicing to make good karma will not reach us to enlightenment. But we have to make good karma to give us a life which we can practice the dharma in, 'dharmic karma'.

    But my teacher said she did a vigil with another Tibetan nun. They couldn't talk with each other through the vigil but the nun appeared to have a flu. At the end the nun commented pleasantly "got rid of a LOT of bad karma there". So in this example, too, I think it is mind training. The kind of karma we want to make is to practice the dharma in this life or the next. All the rest cannot drown out the infinite red and green (or black and white) seeds in our timeless consciousness.

    Do you think the bad people who aren't suffering noticeably are not suffering? Is a rapist or genocidist or whatever really happy? Or are they just a mad dog?
    Sile
  • You can make bad karma out of good events also like a wealthy person who gets into cocaine or something. Perhaps a kid who complains about toys or something.
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    The concept of karma is explained as imprints that we make within ourselves. Our thoughts, words, actions and even feelings all create imprints. And, at some point in time, these imprints ripen and draw to us people/circumstances that match those ripened imprints .. .or WE are drawn.

    Can you prove this? Unlikely.
    But here's a story:
    In the 1960's, folk music was hot and everyone who could had a guitar to strum and sing along with their friends. I was in high school and I didn’t have a guitar but my sister, who was working her way through university, had a cheap guitar she would let me borrow. It had a tinny sound and the strings bit painfully into your fingertips when you chorded ... but it was a guitar.
    Christmas came and my sister had no money to buy gifts. So she gave me her guitar. She had tears in her eyes, partly because she was so happy to give me something I wanted so much, but also because it was her own guitar she was giving away.
    Six months later, she was walking down the sidewalk when she walked by some guy loading up his car. He was moving, driving 3000 miles across-country, and he could only take what would fit into his little MG sports car. His guitar did not fit in. He asked my sister if she would take it ... for free.
    Of course she would. She took the guitar home and when she opened up the case, it was a Martin Classical guitar, with soft nylon strings that never bit into fingertips and the sweetest richest dulcet sound you’ve ever hear. Today, that guitar would be worth over $4000.

    Really now ... just what are the odds that it was my sister he gave this guitar to?
    I could dismiss this story, except that I too had an instance of unselfish giving (of something I was very attached to) and 2 weeks later got the same item, only 4x better, given to me.
    Coincidence twice?
    personJeffrey
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    edited November 2012
    As i understand it, kamma is neither the general, physical law of cause and effect or 'fate'. It's actually a very specific sub-set of cause & effect dealing with wholesome and unwholesome actions according to the volition (intention) of the action.

    Kamma is one of 5 types of causation in Buddhist thought, collectively known as Niyama:

    kamma niyama: ("action") consequences of one's actions
    utu niyama: ("time, season") seasonal changes and climate, law of non-living matter
    bīja niyama: ("seed") laws of heredity
    citta niyama:("mind") will of mind
    dhamma niyama: ("law") nature's tendency to perfect
    Sile
  • I don't know if God exists either.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Tosh said:

    Dakini said:

    The Lamrim (a Tibetan text) says that different countries, different parts of the world have more suffering than others because there need to be places where those with "bad karma" are reborn, to learn their lessons and work off their "bad karma".

    I don't like this one bit. I don't think it's right either. So, imagine a famine in Africa - hundreds of thousands of men, women and children are starving to death.

    Do we try to help? If we do help them, then we're just prolonging their suffering because they need to burn off their bad karma, so out of compassion we should just let them starve?

    Nope, that doesn't sound right to me. Karma isn't some cosmic force of justice - like a God - who dishes out punishments; there's more to it. Some views are very mechanical; I heard a Tibetan monk saying that if our wallet gets stolen, it means we have stolen a wallet in this, or a previous life. That doesn't make sense to me either.
    I don't like it either but it fits in very well with Buddha's teaching about how the nature of Samsara is suffering. We always try to help others the best we can, Karma is an integral part of the functionality of Samsara you wouldn't be the first one to dislike the way it happens, Samsara is the nature of suffering those who see the suffering of others with eyes of compassion are always encouraged to help the best way they can after all we have no choice about where we are born but we do have a choice about what we do.

    Jeffrey
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Karma as cosmic justice, or "Why do bad people get away with bad actions?"

    So we can say karma as a general "actions have consequences" can be observed, is almost self-evident, and we can be certain it exists.

    But from above, we can also see even the monks and experts on the Dharma sometimes confuse karma with cosmic justice. If even they let their desire for justice in the world define their belief, then what hope does the average lay person have to understand what karma really means?

    It's a natural desire to want justice in the world. We want bad people to be punished and good people to be rewarded (actually, what we really want is justice for others and mercy for ourselves, but that's a different topic). But karma as cosmic law of punishment and reward in this life does not exist. If karma as certain cosmic justice was true, there would be no innocent people in prison. Karma would not allow it. Only the willfully blind cannot see this.

    We would like to think the rich and powerful businessman who casually fires hundreds of people and ruins their lives so he can get a few more million dollars he doesn't need will get slammed by some sort of punishment. Certainly people who do bad things increase the chance of having bad consequences. Most likely, he'll die in luxury, after the best medical care money can buy, in a mansion, surrounded by loving family. And no, he won't even suffer guilt. He's justified his actions like we all do. So where's the karma?

    Then it must mean karma as justice works across multiple lives. He'll be reborn poor and suffer the fate of his victims. But that means he was born rich in this life because he was a good man in the last. Funny, how the rich and powerful in the world don't show any special kindness and compassion toward others. Just the opposite, in fact. That also means if you're born poor, deformed, in a bad situation, then you deserved that because you've been a bad person in your last life. That's insane! See where karma as justice, as good actions lead to reward and bad actions lead to certain punishment leads us?

    The solution is in the Dharma. Believing Karma is ultimate justice that brings bad things to bad people eventually is not really about justice, it's about wanting revenge. Instead, desire for the suffering to stop. I don't want to punish the wicked, I want them to stop hurting people.
    Jeffrey
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Tosh said:



    I don't like this one bit. I don't think it's right either. So, imagine a famine in Africa - hundreds of thousands of men, women and children are starving to death.

    Do we try to help? If we do help them, then we're just prolonging their suffering because they need to burn off their bad karma, so out of compassion we should just let them starve?

    Nope, that doesn't sound right to me. Karma isn't some cosmic force of justice - like a God - who dishes out punishments; there's more to it. Some views are very mechanical; I heard a Tibetan monk saying that if our wallet gets stolen, it means we have stolen a wallet in this, or a previous life. That doesn't make sense to me either.

    The Buddha did not like that one bit either. :) That is why he denounced India's caste system so sternly. That is why he touched the "untouchable" people and said they can live a holy life just as well as a high priest can. That is why he denounced the high priests who thought they were superior, just because they were born in a Brahman family. He never said you should just let poor people starve though, but the opposite. :)

    But at the same time, he did say things like living a life being very stingy produces conditions for a rebirth in a life of poverty. Living a life being harmful to other living beings, produces conditions for a rebirth into a life of sickness. Living a life full of hatred and ill will, produces conditions that cause rebirth in ugliness. It's not a "cosmic justice force" like a God dishing out punishment, but it does acknowledge that negative actions have negative effects, which are not necessarily limited to just this lifetime. If one believes in rebirth, it's not that far fetched to think that negative actions in this lifetime can produce negative effects in this lifetime, as well as in the next.

    Jeffrey
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited November 2012
    You know, it just struck me that a lot of Buddhists assume rebirth must go with past life karma, and that evidence for rebirth means evidence for karma over multiple lives. It's that desire for justice.

    Why do people never imagine that rebirth is a fresh start? That we're all born with a clean slate? That when you're reborn, it's another chance to get it right and the circumstances of your birth are random because it doesn't matter? Why do you insist that the mistakes and bad decisions from some past life have to accompany you?

    When I look at a baby, I see something new to the universe, a fresh miracle in the making. That baby has not made a single action to produce karma. Where is the karma? Where is it hiding, where is it stored with this baby's name on it until the universe gets around to dishing it out?

    If you must believe in rebirth, then believe it's a fresh start. A new opportunity to get it right this time. Good or bad, rich or poor, we all die in the end. We all get the same fate. It's what binds all of us together. So let rebirth do the same.
    vinlyn
  • Much to think about....thank you all for your contribution.
  • Do you believe in good luck and bad luck? Has anything ever happened to you that made you ask "Why?!" Whether or not we know the reason for "Why?!" is not important. What is important is that we know these types of things exists. Good luck is out there, and bad luck is out there. From this point we can ask ourselves, "What can I do to have more good luck", or "what can I do to get less bad luck?". From asking these questions we may begin to know what it is about our actions that is affecting our good and bad luck. My understanding of karma is that it is our actions and the overall results of our actions. If these things didn't exist we would still be wondering why good and bad things happen to people.
    Jeffrey
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited November 2012
    Cinorjer said:

    You know, it just struck me that a lot of Buddhists assume rebirth must go with past life karma, and that evidence for rebirth means evidence for karma over multiple lives. It's that desire for justice.

    Why do people never imagine that rebirth is a fresh start? That we're all born with a clean slate? That when you're reborn, it's another chance to get it right and the circumstances of your birth are random because it doesn't matter? Why do you insist that the mistakes and bad decisions from some past life have to accompany you?

    When I look at a baby, I see something new to the universe, a fresh miracle in the making. That baby has not made a single action to produce karma. Where is the karma? Where is it hiding, where is it stored with this baby's name on it until the universe gets around to dishing it out?

    If you must believe in rebirth, then believe it's a fresh start. A new opportunity to get it right this time. Good or bad, rich or poor, we all die in the end. We all get the same fate. It's what binds all of us together. So let rebirth do the same.

    The less one sees individual lives as completely separate from the whole of life, though, the less this image might apply. Like one wave settling back into the ocean and then rising up as a "new" wave - is this a fresh start? Or just another shape of the same substance?

    To me, it's a stream of consciousness continuing moment to moment, and the individual "forms" it seats in over many so-called lifetimes are not really all that separate from one another. But I definitely have no problem thinking of each human rebirth as a precious opportunity, and in that sense even a precious "fresh start." A fresh start, to me, doesn't seem incompatible with the image of an unbroken stream of consciousness.

    Jeffrey
  • I don't see karma as reward and punishment (well, I do sometimes) but I do see it as just.

    Frankly, I like the idea that some cosmic force is in charge of this stuff :lol: when people want justice and try to satisfy a need for it, we create things like the death penalty.

    I like that we don't get to decide what is just and what isn't, because I reckon we just get it wrong too often.

    Maybe I think of karma like a cosmic babysitter, I'm not sure :lol: but I do think of the universe as fair, even if I don't always understand it.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Why would it have to be that no innocent person would be in jail? Perhaps they are innocent of the crime they were found guilty of, but perhaps that is their karma for something else. Or would that not be possible? As a bad example, perhaps they were responsible for sentencing an innocent person to jail in a prior life and now they are having to serve that out. Why would that be impossible?
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited November 2012
    vinlyn said:

    RebeccaS said:

    Shut your hand in the door.

    Pain.

    Boom! Karma.

    There is a consequence to every action. It's just physics. It might not meet your personal, internal standard for justice, you might not even be able to see it, but it's undeniably there.

    Think of that super boiled water - water boiled above 100 degrees. It doesn't bubble, or look like it's boiling at all. It looks like a regular glass of water. It appears that heating it has had no effect on it whatsoever, and the you disturb it... BIG boom. It was boiling all along, you just couldn't tell.

    Perhaps. But what happens with karma to a person who is amoral?

    I think that being amoral or without conscience is an effect of karma in itself. Also, as a believer in literal rebirth, I see no "escape" from the consequences of their actions other than divine intervention because the karma will be there throughout their lifetimes until they undo it.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2012
    One way that I tend to look at it is, actions (kamma) are like seeds that we have sown. Nevertheless, just because a seed is planted doesn't mean that it'll grow and bear fruit. In other words, an action has a tendency to ripen if the necessary conditions are present and play themselves out. But if those conditions are absent, then an action won't be able to produce a corresponding feeling of pleasure, pain, both pleasure-and-pain, or neither pleasure-nor-pain, just as a seed won't grow and bear fruit without fertile soil, water, and sunlight.

    At the beginning of the practice, the best we can do is try to plant as many skillful seeds as possible. In the middle, we try to plant as many skillful seeds as possible and tend tho them while also trying to weed out the unskillful ones. And at the end, we learn how to stop planting seeds altogether, freeing ourselves from a compulsory life of farming altogether and entering a proverbial Garden of Eden, where we can live our lives and experience the world peace, without fear of planting the wrong seeds.
    Siletmottes
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    footiam said:

    I don't know if God exists either.

    Egads! Another one of us!

    karasti
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited November 2012
    I think the 2nd part of Brian Ruhe's series might fit well here (thanks again to @LeonBasin!)



    That's quite an illustration for the video to freeze on (Samsara --> Hell), lol.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Cinorjer said:

    Karma as cosmic justice, or "Why do bad people get away with bad actions?"

    So we can say karma as a general "actions have consequences" can be observed, is almost self-evident, and we can be certain it exists.

    But from above, we can also see even the monks and experts on the Dharma sometimes confuse karma with cosmic justice. If even they let their desire for justice in the world define their belief, then what hope does the average lay person have to understand what karma really means?

    It's a natural desire to want justice in the world. We want bad people to be punished and good people to be rewarded (actually, what we really want is justice for others and mercy for ourselves, but that's a different topic). But karma as cosmic law of punishment and reward in this life does not exist. If karma as certain cosmic justice was true, there would be no innocent people in prison. Karma would not allow it. Only the willfully blind cannot see this.

    We would like to think the rich and powerful businessman who casually fires hundreds of people and ruins their lives so he can get a few more million dollars he doesn't need will get slammed by some sort of punishment. Certainly people who do bad things increase the chance of having bad consequences. Most likely, he'll die in luxury, after the best medical care money can buy, in a mansion, surrounded by loving family. And no, he won't even suffer guilt. He's justified his actions like we all do. So where's the karma?

    Then it must mean karma as justice works across multiple lives. He'll be reborn poor and suffer the fate of his victims. But that means he was born rich in this life because he was a good man in the last. Funny, how the rich and powerful in the world don't show any special kindness and compassion toward others. Just the opposite, in fact. That also means if you're born poor, deformed, in a bad situation, then you deserved that because you've been a bad person in your last life. That's insane! See where karma as justice, as good actions lead to reward and bad actions lead to certain punishment leads us?

    The solution is in the Dharma. Believing Karma is ultimate justice that brings bad things to bad people eventually is not really about justice, it's about wanting revenge. Instead, desire for the suffering to stop. I don't want to punish the wicked, I want them to stop hurting people.

    Very nicely written.

    To me, the problem with karma is not the general concept, which absolutely makes sense, but exactly how it works. This problem is most evident in the different views of what karma is. Yes, particularly in the East, there is somewhat of a school of thought that karma is some sort of what you refer to as comic justice. There are many others who see karmic results of what happens in your own mind (the flaw there is that there are amoral people who never suffer consequences for their wrong acts). Some believe karma only acts (or should only act) in the present life, while others see it working over multiple lifetimes...which seems immensely unfair to me). I could go on.

    We never come to any conclusions about karma, and undoubtedly never will...and that's the problem with karma. I am reminded of one of the principles of keeping principals out of legal trouble -- make sure your teachers or students clearly know what the expectations are and how the system works. And the lack of the same principle with karma is its weakness...as is true for many religious principles in Buddhism and across various religions.

    Jeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    driedleaf said:

    Do you believe in good luck and bad luck? Has anything ever happened to you that made you ask "Why?!" Whether or not we know the reason for "Why?!" is not important. What is important is that we know these types of things exists. Good luck is out there, and bad luck is out there. From this point we can ask ourselves, "What can I do to have more good luck", or "what can I do to get less bad luck?". From asking these questions we may begin to know what it is about our actions that is affecting our good and bad luck. My understanding of karma is that it is our actions and the overall results of our actions. If these things didn't exist we would still be wondering why good and bad things happen to people.

    I'm not sure I believe in the concept of good and bad luck as much as I believe in the concept of good and bad coincidence.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    vinlyn said:

    RebeccaS said:

    Shut your hand in the door.

    Pain.

    Boom! Karma.

    There is a consequence to every action. It's just physics. It might not meet your personal, internal standard for justice, you might not even be able to see it, but it's undeniably there.

    Think of that super boiled water - water boiled above 100 degrees. It doesn't bubble, or look like it's boiling at all. It looks like a regular glass of water. It appears that heating it has had no effect on it whatsoever, and the you disturb it... BIG boom. It was boiling all along, you just couldn't tell.

    Perhaps. But what happens with karma to a person who is amoral?

    I think that being amoral or without conscience is an effect of karma in itself. Also, as a believer in literal rebirth, I see no "escape" from the consequences of their actions other than divine intervention because the karma will be there throughout their lifetimes until they undo it.
    How exactly does one "undo" something they didn't know existed to begin with?

  • karasti said:

    Why would it have to be that no innocent person would be in jail? Perhaps they are innocent of the crime they were found guilty of, but perhaps that is their karma for something else. Or would that not be possible? As a bad example, perhaps they were responsible for sentencing an innocent person to jail in a prior life and now they are having to serve that out. Why would that be impossible?

    It's possible, but then you have the following problem: how could you tell the difference between a universe in which karma as a force for justice does not exist, and a universe in which any seeming injustice can be excused as being from some unknown, unknowable past life action? In fact, both universes would look exactly the same. So karma - at least past life karma - has to be a matter of faith. Either it makes sense in your practice and as you look around the world, or not.
    zenff
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Honestly for me, karma as a day to day basis and as Jason and others said, that there are seeds of both and it depends which gets watered, makes the most sense to me.

    The idea of people suffering in any way now because of something they did 750 years ago, doesn't make a lot of sense to me at this point, so it doesn't come into play in my daily life or practice, because what can I control about that? Nothing. Plus it's exhausting to think about. What did my 4 year old son do in a past life that he suffers from diabetes now? What about my oldest who has Asperger's? Did their dad die at 35 because of some past life karmic ribbon? Or did he just die because he messed up his life, was a drug addict and took the wrong cocktail one day? It's not something I can comprehend well, past life karma, so I just don't worry about it much. I worry about right now, and that's about it. I enjoy reading about past lives, but as a deep Buddhist topic, it's not a place I've gotten to yet to study it in depth. Does it even matter if my son is diabetic because of something he did in a past life? The fact is he has it and he will deal with it for the rest of his life. Why, doesn't really matter. All i can do is teach him to be a good, kind, compassionate person and hope he carries on with his life in a positive manner.
    MaryAnneCinorjerToshzenff
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    Honestly for me, karma as a day to day basis and as Jason and others said, that there are seeds of both and it depends which gets watered, makes the most sense to me.

    The idea of people suffering in any way now because of something they did 750 years ago, doesn't make a lot of sense to me at this point, so it doesn't come into play in my daily life or practice, because what can I control about that? Nothing. Plus it's exhausting to think about. What did my 4 year old son do in a past life that he suffers from diabetes now? What about my oldest who has Asperger's? Did their dad die at 35 because of some past life karmic ribbon? Or did he just die because he messed up his life, was a drug addict and took the wrong cocktail one day? It's not something I can comprehend well, past life karma, so I just don't worry about it much. I worry about right now, and that's about it. I enjoy reading about past lives, but as a deep Buddhist topic, it's not a place I've gotten to yet to study it in depth. Does it even matter if my son is diabetic because of something he did in a past life? The fact is he has it and he will deal with it for the rest of his life. Why, doesn't really matter. All i can do is teach him to be a good, kind, compassionate person and hope he carries on with his life in a positive manner.

    Excellent post!

  • @karasti, the first thing I think of with karma is how can I use this to do good? How can it motivate me? I guess I don't think critically in this posture. I don't refute it even though it is quite flawed. The reason I don't is that it is motivating. Any negative seed can ripen at any time. Any positive seed. We don't know what is going to happen.

    So if something good happens I can know that it is a seed ripening and that it won't last forever.

    If something bad happens I can know it is a seed ripening and that it won't last forever.

    Either way I have a chance to make new karma today. Everything counts.


    So I use karma pragmatically. If I have a car I don't know how the engine works. I just drive it to where I want to go.
    MaryAnnekarastidriedleafVastmind
  • @AllBuddhaBound, Your confusion is regarding karma as a cosmological moral force, but it's important to note that karma can be observed to operate on shorter timescales and according to a value-free mechanism (punishment for good and bad actions doesn't necessarily have to enter into it on the small scale.) Also, this perspective on karma is the most useful for meditation practice.
    To avoid the drawbacks of the narrative and cosmological mind-sets, the Buddha pursued an entirely different tack — what he called "entry into emptiness," and what modern philosophy calls radical phenomenology: a focus on the events of present consciousness, in and of themselves, without reference to questions of whether there are any entities underlying those events. In the Buddha's case, he focused simply on the process of kammic cause and result as it played itself out in the immediate present, in the process of developing the skillfulness of the mind, without reference to who or what lay behind those processes. On the most basic level of this mode of awareness, there was no sense even of "existence" or "non-existence" [§186], but simply the events of stress, its origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation, arising and passing away. Through this mode he was able to pursue the fourth type of kamma to its end, at the same time gaining heightened insight into the nature of action itself and its many implications, including questions of rebirth, the relationship of mental to physical events, and the way kamma constructs all experience of the cosmos.

    Because the Buddha gained both understanding of and release from kamma by pursuing the phenomenological mode of attention, his full-dress systematic analysis of kamma is also expressed in that mode. This analysis is included in his teachings on this/that conditionality, dependent co-arising, and the four noble truths: the three levels of refinement in the type of right view without effluents that underlay his mastery of the fourth type of kamma. Here we will consider, in turn, how each of these teachings shaped the Buddha's teachings on kamma, how the knowledge of Unbinding confirmed those teachings, and how the success of the phenomenological mode of analysis shaped the Buddha's use of narrative and cosmological modes in instructing others. We will conclude with a discussion of how these points show the need for conviction in the principle of kamma as a working hypothesis for anyone who wants to gain release from suffering and stress.
    (I recommend reading the whole book. It is an excellent overview of the Buddhist path of practice.)
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    But then when the engine seizes you bring it to someone who can fix it, or you buy a new car, and it doesn't work that easily with the karma train ;) lol I know what you are saying though, and I agree, especially with the first part about how you turn anything into a positive.
    Jeffrey
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Great thread! I am trying to understand this myself!
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