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All along the Watchtower
lobster
Crusty Veteran
There I was during a tea break . . . contemplating how
Buddhism is a lot of fuss about Nothing
and Enlightenment is nothing to fuss about . . . when the door bell . . .
Two charming elderly Jehovahs Witnesses at the door.
Well I am looking for a new religion, so maybe this was a sign from Amitabha.
Found out some interesting things:
1. Hell no longer exists (quite pleased about that, was planning a visit, picnic and mass evacuation)
2. The end of the world date is no longer known (only the Daddy of Jesus knows that)
3. Eating blood (the reason for not excepting blood transfusion) is not an admonishment against Vampires or Catholic transubstantiation - not even about kosher or halal practices . . . "Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.” We all agreed not to be Catholics or vampires.
4. Jehovahs Witnesses are not recyclers. I assured them (very kindly) that the proffered Watchtower magazine would go straight to recycling.
5. Anyway they seemed very amiable and wished me a lovely day and me them . . .
Quite a pleasant tea break but not the religion for me . . .
Back to the drawing board . . . :coffee:
Buddhism is a lot of fuss about Nothing
and Enlightenment is nothing to fuss about . . . when the door bell . . .
Two charming elderly Jehovahs Witnesses at the door.
Well I am looking for a new religion, so maybe this was a sign from Amitabha.
Found out some interesting things:
1. Hell no longer exists (quite pleased about that, was planning a visit, picnic and mass evacuation)
2. The end of the world date is no longer known (only the Daddy of Jesus knows that)
3. Eating blood (the reason for not excepting blood transfusion) is not an admonishment against Vampires or Catholic transubstantiation - not even about kosher or halal practices . . . "Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.” We all agreed not to be Catholics or vampires.
4. Jehovahs Witnesses are not recyclers. I assured them (very kindly) that the proffered Watchtower magazine would go straight to recycling.
5. Anyway they seemed very amiable and wished me a lovely day and me them . . .
Quite a pleasant tea break but not the religion for me . . .
Back to the drawing board . . . :coffee:
0
Comments
However, I didn't like what I found.
The blood issue, for example, is political - not spiritual - and this continues to kill children. Acts 15 is the oft cited verse governing this (it's vague). The background is that JWs could give and receive blood (and organs) until 1945 where giving blood was seen as a hugely patriotic thing to do in the USA. That year, 1945 they banned giving and receiving blood and organ transplants citing Acts 15 (and a few other scriptures; all vague).
Eventually, after many deaths they relented on receiving organs, and over the years - inch by inch - they have changed the policy on the receiving blood. Now a JW can receive ALL THE DIFFERENT PARTS OF HUMAN BLOOD, but not whole blood. This still kills people though; we had a 15 year old child die a year-or-so-ago after he refused a blood transfusion; because there are times when there is no other best option.
There's also disfellowshipping. If you don't toe the line, you will be disfellowshipped. Try being gay in the JWs - you can't - you will be cut off by all your friends AND YOUR JW family. This has led to many suicides. You can't be an alkie either; it's not viewed as an illness (it is recognised as a mental illness by the WHO btw); it's viewed as gluttony. Disfellowshipped.
And there's other stuff like 'stumbling' which gets a bit more complex, but you'll have Elders (all male - a female cannot be an Elder) knocking at your door because they're unhappy with some aspect of your life.
Oh, and let's not forget the JW field reports; if you're a Pioneer - you have to submit monthly reports on how you spend your time Evangelising. Send in good reports and you could be headed for being an Elder, send in bad reports (not enough hours spent knocking on doors), and you will be visited by some Elders.
The disfellowshipping thing turned me off the most though. In A.A. we do get the occasional alkie who is disruptive - and many of our members refuse to toe any A.A. party line - but we refuse entry to none. We would never ever disfellowship any member of A.A.. We couldn't; we don't have Elders or A.A. Police (though I'd love to have A.A. Police - believe me!!! ;-)).
Would you kick someone out of your sangha because they were gay? Or because they didn't believe in certain doctrines and dogma? Or because they had a problem with alcohol? Or because they had an affair?
The Watchtower HQ is also viewed as the mouthpiece of God; what they say goes; despite getting several end of the World dates wrong.
I'm not keen on the organisation; can you tell?
They've always been a bit of a joke to me... The whole knocking on doors thing just seems so odd and pointless. Same with the blood thing. I've never viewed it as like, an actual religion.
It's ok, they don't really consider Buddhism to be a proper religion either.
A simple statement of fact, really.
Here is where I am coming from.
I know and have known a number of Witnesses over the years. My next door neighbor and his family are JWs. They are excellent people. His wife came from a childhood of horrific sexual and physical abuse and considers her religion to be the thing that saved her life. Their children are successful and happy.
Several years ago, my neighbor fell and was seriously hurt. She was sent to a near by city for treatment. During the weeks that she was in hospital her whole family was invited to stay in the home of some members of the local congregation who they had never even met.
In my experience their religion or whatever you want to call it, causes them to be kind, respectful, and very generous.
Do you know that when they give you a magazine, that they have payed for it themselves?
It is a gift, as is their time. And it is a gift to them to accept it graciously, as it helps them to fulfil their obligation to their faith.
I don't accept their beliefs and they know it. We are friends.
Now I don't know if @lobster intended this thread to go down a negative path or not. Probably not.
You consider them a joke. That seems disrespectful to me. Sorry.
Well maybe not clear....but imminently more watchable.
If they want to spend their money on magazines it's not my problem anymore than spending $20k to get to phaeton level 3 is my problem.
"How do you hide a pearl? You hide it amongst fake pearls!" That's the JW take on their religion and other religions. Catholicism is the Devil's work too; they have a strong aversion to that. And the United Nations too; that's the Devil's work. Google if you wish to know why.
They also don't celebrate birthdays; though there's no specific reason in the Bible for this. They don't celebrate Christmas or Easter either - those are pagan traditions with another name; they do however exchange wedding rings when they get married, and that has it's roots in pagan religion.
I find the religion interesting from the point of view it incorporates most things I don't like about organised religion. It's extremely dogmatic - there's no freedom of thought allowed - the Watchtower is the font of all knowledge; the voice of God. And they'll disfellowship those that don't do as they say.
JWs don't actually have a clergy afaik. So they may have abuse by some elders. What else is new?
A guy who was a friend of mine was recently released from prison after serving time for raping his daughter.
Fishermen have sexual abuse issues as well.
Anywhere you look for it you will find it.
I can think of reasons why they want it like this. Can you?
I'm fairly clued up about the organisation purely because I had a JW friend who tried to Evangelise to me, and at the time I was attracted to their members. As individuals they seem a lovely bunch of people. At the time I'd just stopped drinking - I'm a recovered alkie - and was feeling a little lost and searching for something of a spiritual nature.
But I did my research, and took information from a lot of different sources; and the conclusion I reached was that it's more dogmatic than spiritual; it also has many cult-like practises.
The worst thing I can think of right now is when one of the JW wives had an affair and ran off with a local RCMPolice.
Why so much interest in the dark side of this religion? Are they a threat to us? As I said in my post above, my experience with JWs has been positive.
I feel that it's my duty to make some sort of defense for them in their absence, being that, as I said, some of them are and have been, good friends to me.
At the end of the day, they had strange beliefs, but did their path give them a more compassionate, upright, generous approach to life? For many I would say yes. Enlightenment, not so much.
I have not met one who turned into an abuser or a criminal or even a less moral person from being a JW.
That said, I live in a very small community and could be naive.
We don't bare our souls and open ourselves up and make ourselves vulnerable to fishermen. We do tend to do that to religious authorities. It pays to do our homework re: whom we might choose to make ourselves vulnerable to. In some schools of Buddhism it's recommended to spend years checking out the teacher before signing up for handing over all your trust to that person, or trusting your children to that person. Why wouldn't the same thing hold for Christian religions? This is just simple due diligence.
I did not get the impression that @lobster was giving any serious consideration to joining the JWs seeing as how he offered to throw their material into the recycling bin. In fact, I have yet to have seen anyone on this forum give any thought to signing up.
Again I say if you are going to make generalizations about "a religious authority structure that harms people, then covers it up and excommunicates the victims", then you should provide either some first hand experience with the perpetrators or the victims that you have had, or some factual evidence that this is widespread in the organization.
I have tried to describe the character of some of the Witnesses that I know and have known over many years. I have had my say.
Speaking of which, I still believe that they are correct in the fact that there is no hell, but their God, while not torturing you in a burning fire, just kills you. You no longer exist and never will exist again. That brings with it its own fear. And then there is the fear of Armageddon that they continually talk about. What kind of life is this? The big fear is that you will not remain faithful until the end, and the end brings on all kinds of suffering for JWs and they will be persecuted and yet have to remain faithful. Kind of like Quantanamo torture for some. I lived in fear of Armeggedon the entire time I was there, and then when I was kicked out I thought that I was going to die in 1975 when they claimed that the end would come. Of course the way they worded it they could get out of that claim and did, except that there was a big exodus then.
I would say to go on these websites and read what exJWs have to say. It will tear your heart out. What I found that disfellowshipped persons have in common, at least on the exjw forums, is that they have found compassion for others. They exact each other now and they don't engage in infighting like you find even on the Buddhist forums. It is a hard way to learn compassion and tolerance for others views, but that they have done. They also support each other to the hilt. A JW coming to read the board would call them all liars because they have been brainwashed, just as I was once brainwashed. When I was kicked out of the JWs I finally found a book on brainwashing behind the Iron Curtain, and I saw exactly how they brainwashed us all. For one thing, they will spy on each other just like they did in the communist countries. They will report things that you say to your JW friends to the elders. I had a friend who found a notebook that the visiting overseer left on the podium, and it was filled with negative comments made by JWs and stated, keep an eye on this person. I was asked to give bible lessons to one woman and was asked to keep an eye out to see if her ex boyfriend came around and report to them if I did. They also drill into the same lessons over and over again. I could go on and on about the brainwashing but this is long enough.
Last of all read what one of their elect had to say after he left: Crisis in Conscious by Raymond Franz, who was a big wig at their headquarters.
Well, no, not last of all. Sometimes children are sexually abused, but it takes 3 witnesses to prove it, and how many men are going to sexually abuse a child in front of someone else. If a child comes forward they keep it a secret and often the child gets kicked out because he/she has no proof. They keep this all within the society and even most members don't know about it. I cannot say how many congregations this happens in; some may never have this issue. But it is the child that suffers because they first get abused; then kicked out and lose their real family, i.e. parents, which in some cases may be a good thing if it is one of their parents that has abused them.
Thank you for describing your experience as a JW. It's a very strong testimonial.
It is hard to imagine that the members in the local congregation, including my neighbor are unaware of cases like yours within the organisation.
I have never talked about this with my neighbor. If I have another opportunity, I will bring it up. He hasn't been over for a religious talk for several years.
In my community there is a family that i know personally in which the mother is a Witness. The father (now deceased) never joined, and of the children, the four daughters had given it up as teenagers and the son gave it up as an adult. The mother was never required to shun her children. I can't say whether or not these people have kept any contact with other witnesses in town. The son has been my friend for many years. He has not mentioned being shunned by anyone. Could be keeping it to himself.
Perhaps the rules are more lax in a place this size. The congregation has shrunk dramatically over the years. They can't afford to isolate themselves from the community. They have always been pretty well accepted here.
Thanks again.
I have a friend who was repeatedly beaten by her husband (a JW elder). After showing up badly brused and complaining to the other elders on a number of occaissions, their final wisdom to deal with it was to insist that her husband attend a different JW church location.
How did it turn out? Hopfully she went to the police next. Did they change congregations? Did she leave him? Was she disfellowshipped?
here is the forum that i have often frequented: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/ Tell your story and the Copy Board have some of the better information.
Yeah. They fall into the cult category for sure.
Some of the posts can be upsetting and some members use cuss words, which is to be expected when you have had to tow the line for so many years. Some go "wild" for a while.
i don't take kindly to religion anymore. i joined a hindu group 10 years or so after the jw thing, and that lasted a few years until i learned that the head monks and nuns were abusive and the guru had slept around. then i joined another hindu group and found the same and the day i left was the day i went to deer park and thich nhat hanh was there. i cried when he walked into the room. but i only went there for a few times and left when i saw some monks at deer park and asked who they were. there was just something about them, and so i found their sangha and that is where i stayed for 3 1/2 years before moving away.
i had a wonderful teacher, but while i loved the people there and the teachers, i couldn't connect because i still believed in god and the soul; only a god more like what hinduism teaches. but at least i was in a teaching where the people were not abusive towards any one.
so i am rather in limbo now. i believe in loving kindness and that is about it. and i believe in warning others about the dangers in certain religions, after all, you go to a religion to find peace; not abuse.
if we hadn't moved away i would still be going to the same sangha. at least they didn't care if i believed everything or not.
As a professional heretic, denied refuge, entry to yoga centres and banned from occult bookshops for asking for books that have not been written yet, I know a little about being an apostate. Please remember not to start any cults, Buddhist or other.
:vimp:
Why was I denied refuge? Wanting to choose my own Buddhist name. Luckily I was able to go direct to the founder of Buddhism. Name approved. Refuge given. Thanks Buddha. :clap:
Maybe I'll just keep clear of your well meaning devotees . . .
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with Cod,
and the Word was Cod.
The same was in the beginning with Cod.
All things were made by him,
And without him was not any thing made that was made…
And the Word was made fresh,
(John 1:1-3, 14 KJV)
My kind of fish! :thumbup:
I always answer the door.
I always hear them out.
I open the front door wide so they can
see the altar, and ask them if they would
like a cup of tea, and if they would like
to hear about suffering and the causes.
They always decline.
Her daughter will ring me if she hasn't been able to get in touch with her mum for a few days and I will go over and knock on the door if I haven't seen her about either.
Her daughter gets concerned due to her mum door knocking with other woman from the congregation at least twice weekly. When I have tried to speak to her about the dangers I can see in this activity, this gentle looking older woman has responded by telling me of the dangers in not studying with her church, while I still can.
I have only once had a discussion with her about Buddhism and she told me it was the same as Islam - against Jehovah's will.
they used to tell this story of a woman going door-to-door and later on they picked a guy up in the neighborhood who was a murderer, and she had knocked on his door. they asked him why he didn't harm her, and he said because there was a man with her. the man of course was an angel. we all believed this story and felt safe going door-to-door. but we always had another person with us, always women with other women as far as i recall.
But I like A.A.'s philosophy; A.A. is not a program of beliefs, it's a program of action, and I do have faith in 'action'. If I do (and think) the 'right way', things will be okay; in practise that means if I try to be kind, patient, compassionate, ethical - you know that kind of thing - things will be good; or at least not as bad as if I acted in a wholly selfish and self centred way.
Maybe that's why I like aspects of Buddhism? I was taught that the Buddha was a pragmatic teacher - it appears (to me) that he wasn't into metaphysical bullshit - but just how to be happy.
That's enough for me.
Had they just been spreading ''the word'' it would have been more commendable than just trying to get me into something potentially harmful.
I once had a discussion where a friend of mine told me to them I was Jewish and they would leave me alone.