Stink of Zen

skullchin

Anyone familiar with this phrase? When someone begins to "stink of zen"?

I'm thinking of switching g to metta practice for awhile.

Jeffrey

I think it would be when the way you are practicing zen is off. You may have some wrong ideas about it.

And then you eventually have a vomiting reaction where you throw up the parts of zen that were misused or misunderstood.

Cinorjer

Yes, I am familiar with the phrase. For those who are not, my own definition is when people who practice Zen get caught up in ego games and ritual, who mistake being able to talk the talk with the simplicity of a clear mind.

May I ask what is prompting you to consider metta practice? May I also ask what your Zen practice is now?

fivebells

You see it all the time on the internet, although there it should probably be called the flatulence of Zen, because it's all verbal.

lobster

Anyone familiar with this phrase? When someone begins to "stink of zen"?

I'm thinking of switching to metta practice for awhile.

This is one of the reasons for 'killing the Buddha' if you meet him . . .
If you are going to reek, metta is a better option . . . but . . .
ideally your interior state does not have a flavour . . . or abiding.

As far as I am aware, beginners soon start to exhibit zen platitudes and behavourisms. That is one smell. Those who have a long practice but no enlightenment exhibit the same platitudes and advisement but as if realised. Phew - pong 2

Do you recall the thread about the 'new smell'?

My dog has no nose.
How does he smell?
Terrible!

I am off to douse myself in roses . . .

how

All forms of buddhist practise have there own smell. You can think of such a smell as a wake..as in enlightened action leaves no wake, or choosing an easier artifice over the acceptance of who you really are.
Instead of letting go of ego, you dress it up to give it more of a spiritual appearance.

skullchin

Jeffrey said:

I think it would be when the way you are practicing zen is off. You may have some wrong ideas about it.

And then you eventually have a vomiting reaction where you throw up the parts of zen that were misused or misunderstood.

I'm sure my practice and understanding of zen will be off until I am enlightened. May I soon vomit!

skullchin

Cinorjer said:

May I ask what is prompting you to consider metta practice? May I also ask what your Zen practice is now?

I was practicing metta awhile back and noticed it was easier to feel compassion toward people. And it seemed very effective in cultivating compassion toward difficult people. My practice of zazen didn't have that effect.

skullchin

lobster said:

Do you recall the thread about the 'new smell'?

My dog has no nose.
How does he smell?
Terrible!

I am off to douse myself in roses . . .

Got linkage?

genkaku

Everyone stinks one way or another. So, when we stink, we take a shower ... it's called practice.

fivebells

skullchin said:

I was practicing metta awhile back and noticed it was easier to feel compassion toward people. And it seemed very effective in cultivating compassion toward difficult people. My practice of zazen didn't have that effect.

Were you doing a koan, or shikantaza?

lamaramadingdong

Smells like chicken...

lobster

Instead of letting go of ego, you dress it up to give it more of a spiritual appearance.

This is why we do not become a Buddhist. We practice Buddhism to become who we are. It is why people take refuge and not refuse. How many of us are cultural baggage holders? Dogma daleks - exterminate, exterminate (the ego)?
Someone said it well

Buddhism; it's not what you think . . .

:clap:

Cinorjer

skullchin said:

Cinorjer said:

May I ask what is prompting you to consider metta practice? May I also ask what your Zen practice is now?

I was practicing metta awhile back and noticed it was easier to feel compassion toward people. And it seemed very effective in cultivating compassion toward difficult people. My practice of zazen didn't have that effect.

That's interesting, because when I moved away from a Zen hall, I decided to refocus on a Metta practice. While I loved the people and practice, I came to the conclusion that it was time I stopped focusing on myself and my problems and my understanding, and just try to help people. I rarely do formal meditation now. That doesn't mean my time in Zazen or any meditation or working on penetrating "What am I?" was wasted. On the contrary. It was what I needed. But that was then and this is now.

So I wrote out the Bodhisattva vows for my altar and now I have a simple practice and philosophy. I have not set foot in a Zazen hall in many years.

So perhaps I understand what you're faced with.

skullchin

fivebells said:

Were you doing a koan, or shikantaza?

no. I haven't worked much w koans.

zenff

skullchin said:

Anyone familiar with this phrase? When someone begins to "stink of zen"?

I'm thinking of switching g to metta practice for awhile.

A sincere effort of investigation into the Dharma never smells bad; even when it misses the mark.

Even if a person can’t do any better than quoting and parroting; that’s something which deserves respect. It is what he sincerely believes is the best he can do to help himself and others on the Buddhist Path.

So I would like to question if there is such thing as the “stink of Zen” at all.

Metta-meditation sounds like a good idea, to me. I think the practice is under-valuated. Did you read Sharon Salzberg?

skullchin

I have not read Salzberg yet. My experience with metta practice so far is that it is surprisingly effective at increasing compassion. Both the ease in which you can enter a compassionate state and the strengthening of that state.

fivebells

If you're interested in compassion, tonglen is a more direct practice.

lobster

Even if a person can’t do any better than quoting and parroting; that’s something which deserves respect. It is what he sincerely believes is the best he can do to help himself and others on the Buddhist Path.

If any person has integrity and genuine sincerity, then they are not parroting or quoting - they are sharing and reminding.

So I would like to question if there is such thing as the “stink of Zen” at all.

There is.
If you are sharing your 'wisdom', your 'depth', then quite often what is happening is of limited value. It becomes an innapropriate zen game.

How many ways to lift a flower? How many ways to be silent? Smell the flower, no stink at all . . . ?

Cinorjer

The thing about the phrase the way I learned it is, we Buddhists who begin the long journey of Zazen training all "stink of Zen" once in a while. It's the difference between a nice fragrence and being sprayed in the face with perfume. I cross the line sometimes, and so does every Zen Buddhist. When we smugly tell someone who wants us to explain a koan that, "You aren't capable of understanding unless you put in the hard work I did. You have nothing of worth to say about real Zen!" then we are stinking of Zen.

DairyLama

fivebells said:

If you're interested in compassion, tonglen is a more direct practice.

It probably depends on the individual. I did tonglen for many years but found it quite convoluted compared to metta.

caz

PedanticPorpoise said:

fivebells said:

If you're interested in compassion, tonglen is a more direct practice.

It probably depends on the individual. I did tonglen for many years but found it quite convoluted compared to metta.

Tonglen/Taking and Giving Principally depends upon loving kindness to be an efficient practice anyway which is why loving Kindness always comes before these practices.