Buddhism as a religion. Is that attachment?

still_learning

Some people treat Buddhism as a religion. Based on what I've read about Buddhism, it isn't a religion, but a set guidelines that are meant to be tested.

When people follow Buddhism as a religion with it's guidelines as rules and they become dogmatic about it, does that become an attachment, and will it bring unto themselves unnecessary suffering?

how

Attachment brings suffering, whether for or against, guidelines or rules.

karasti

Assigning a label sometimes is necessary in order to explain things to people who want/need to know. I think plenty of people practice it as a religion without being attached in a negative way. As for whether it's a religion or not, it depends which definition of religion you look at. Sometimes it requires a higher being, but it does not have to. In the legal sense, Buddhism is a religion. That doesn't mean you have to practice it as one. Some people are averse to anything referred to as religion, but that in itself is a problem. To me, it is a religion and that is how I practice it. However, I do not set limits on myself as far as "this is the rule and I'm sticking to it because Buddhism says so" because that is the last thing that Buddhism is about.

Jason

Sure. But in the grand scheme of things, I think it's a fairly skillful (or at least harmless) attachment. If one is attached to religiously observing the precepts, for example, there are certainly worse things.

Nevermind

still_learning said:

Some people treat Buddhism as a religion. Based on what I've read about Buddhism, it isn't a religion, but a set guidelines that are meant to be tested.

When people follow Buddhism as a religion with it's guidelines as rules and they become dogmatic about it, does that become an attachment, and will it bring unto themselves unnecessary suffering?

Hello Still learning,

What do you think a religion is?

Wikipedia defines it thus:

Religion is a collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.

How does Buddhism not fit with this definition?

justshea

If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him.

Nevermind

Jason said:

Sure. But in the grand scheme of things, I think it's a fairly skillful (or at least harmless) attachment. If one is attached to religiously observing the precepts, for example, there are certainly worse things.

I remember a monk once saying something to the effect that yeah, let's try fulfilling our vows before worrying about whether we're attached to them, lol.

still_learning

I guess, when I think of religion, I think of theistic religion, and something that has dogmatic rules.

I didn't realized how broad the definition of religion is.

I guess you can do anything "religiously"

Nevermind

Another thing that might be taken into consideration is that religions are not dogmatic. People are dogmatic. This being that case, dogmatism can be expressed in any religion. It is certainly expressed by many Buddhist leaders. But that doesn't taint the whole practice. There are reasons for the way they are, and we can see past their dogmatism.

vinlyn

Nevermind said:

still_learning said:

Some people treat Buddhism as a religion. Based on what I've read about Buddhism, it isn't a religion, but a set guidelines that are meant to be tested.

When people follow Buddhism as a religion with it's guidelines as rules and they become dogmatic about it, does that become an attachment, and will it bring unto themselves unnecessary suffering?

Hello Still learning,

What do you think a religion is?

Wikipedia defines it thus:

Religion is a collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.

How does Buddhism not fit with this definition?

Some people see it as a religion, and that's fine for them. I see it more as a philosophy, and that works for me.

vinlyn

Nevermind said:

I remember a monk once saying something to the effect that yeah, let's try fulfilling our vows before worrying about whether we're attached to them, lol.

I hope everyone here reads that...but in the sense of let's try fulfilling our vows before worrying about whether someone else is fulfilling theirs!

Jeffrey

@still_learning, how do you understand what an attachment is? If I have an apple and I like apples is that attachment? Will it be helpful to self-police everything that is an attachment for me? I think that would end in too much second guessing yourself.

federica

The secret is in discerning whether an attachment is skilful, unskillful, and whether being one or the other might, or can, be transformed into the opposite....

The word 'Religion' finds its roots in the Latin Religare, which means 'to bind, or tie'..... thus, we 'bind' ourselves to following a specific calling, practice, philosophy or dedication, so as such, Buddhism may well be definable as a religion. I tend to point out that Buddhist Monks and Nuns, within their temples and monasteries, would certainly define Buddhism as a religion....how else would they exist....?

Attachment can sometimes be a good thing. Needing a raft to transport you from one bank to the other is a pretty good attachment.
Just be content to leave the raft behind, once you get there.....

caz

Buddhism is a Religion, Its what you would call a virtuous attachment

Tosh

still_learning said:

Some people treat Buddhism as a religion. Based on what I've read about Buddhism, it isn't a religion, but a set guidelines that are meant to be tested.

I did a foundation of Buddhist Thought course; Gelug; and we did a fair bit of work on the Two Truths and what's real and what's not real.

Anyway, they taught that nothing exists without a conceptual mind involved. Buddhism is a concept; for you that concept exists as 'not a religion', but for other people Buddhism will exist as a religion.

Who is right? No-one. Buddhism is empty of inherent existence. Concepts are truth concealers; they're useful to start with but we deepen the knowledge through meditation.

I think that's the gist of it.

Nevermind

The word 'Religion' finds its roots in the Latin Religare, which means 'to bind, or tie'..... thus, we 'bind' ourselves to following a specific calling, practice, philosophy or dedication

Not bind to following, but that's not an unsurprising interpretation.

taiyaki

Most definitely an attachment.

When we begin Buddhism we take refuge in the three jewels.

Then further along the path Buddhism naturally cleaned off like dead skin.

The Buddha said to take refuge in the Dharma because everything else is a sinking ship.

In the beginning its good to be to doctrinal, dogmatic, and rigid. This is what the Hinayana path calls for to get out shit together and to take refuge in truth and freedom. With time and living life this evolves.

Whatever we call Buddhism be it a philosophy, an idea, a religion it is all just fancy words of adopting a new belief system. The real question is does the belief system transform the heart and lead to true freedom that is beyond belief?

Choose your attachments wisely for this world is marked as the desire realm of the prideful ones.

Jeffrey

For example, a wheel-turning King has the Mani Jewel and puts it in his palace. The Mani Jewel sends forth such brightness that the darkness is completely dispersed. Likewise, a Bodhisattva-Mahasattva possesses the great Mani Jewel of Bodhicitta and dwells in the Realm of Desires. The Great Wisdom light sent forth by this Jewel disperses the darkness of ignorance in every clinging.

102 Parables of Bodhicitta
As Taught by the Next Buddha Maitreya
(Bodhicitta Series Part II)

http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw39/bk109.html

still_learning

federica said:

Attachment can sometimes be a good thing. Needing a raft to transport you from one bank to the other is a pretty good attachment.
Just be content to leave the raft behind, once you get there.....

I would argue that one never had an attachment to the raft if one had always been ready to let go of the raft as soon as it is not needed. I would say that the raft was a need, but not an attachment.

Beej

this is how i look at attatchment: i try envisioning myself without the thing/thought/person/belief/idea/etc that i may or may not be attatched to. then i explore the emotional response that i illicited within myself. often times, this is a good indicator of how much i am attatched to the thing. then i go from there. picture yourself without buddhism. what does that emotion illicit?

vinlyn

TheBeejAbides said:

this is how i look at attatchment: i try envisioning myself without the thing/thought/person/belief/idea/etc that i may or may not be attatched to. then i explore the emotional response that i illicited within myself. often times, this is a good indicator of how much i am attatched to the thing. then i go from there. picture yourself without buddhism. what does that emotion illicit?

I think you're right.

Reminds me of a situation quite a long time ago when I was still visiting Thailand during long summers. The next to the last day I was there I went to a holiday market at the old king's garden (Suan Amporn). There was a stone Buddha statue that I just had to have! Of course, considering that to take it out of the country it would have to be inspected by two governmental offices for approval. No way I could get that done in a day. I stewed about that for hours. Very upset. And then I thought...how ironic...one of the very basic principles of Buddhism had flown by the wayside because I couldn't have something I really wanted. Wow...that was such a clear attachment then, and I was able to set the feelings aside.

driedleaf

Attachment is attachment and religion is religion. One doesn't have to be the other. Buddhism actually teaches against attachment. People have to dig deeper into Buddhism to learn this. It's more difficult for people to see this attachment in countries where religious activities/festivals/worship is embedded in their culture. Even so, attachment is only when one chooses to attach, the rest is just how people choose to use their time.

how

Attachments can be buggers to see.

Another useful meter to suss out attachment is through mindfulness of your present state of equanimity.

Equanimity allows one the potential to look and move with relative balance in all directions.

With mindfulness of that relative freedom, any observable limitation to your experience of that grace will point out another obstructing attachment to attend to.

lobster

Can you practice the Dharma without being a Buddhist? Why would you want to? Be a better Buddhist, don't get attached to not having labels and attachments.
:clap:

footiam

Science is also an attachment then.

vinlyn

footiam said:

Science is also an attachment then.

I think almost everything:
1. can be an attachment
2. doesn't have to be an attachment

Except for Christmas tree ornament loops.

Jeffrey

The positive application of attachments is for the vacuum cleaner. You need an attachment to get the couch cushions clean. :P

lobster

Science is an attachment, a virtuous or skilful one. It is just not the only way of knowing. The idea that the scientific method will be superseded may seem as strange to Newton as the idea to him that his scientific work was more important than his alchemical work . . .
We are attached to our limitations, however valuable.
The idea of post-science is not yet prevalent.